Ansel Adams Digital Scanning?

[Deane Johnson]

Sometime in the mid to late 1980's, I was in Ansel's home and he was showing a comparison of two 16x20 prints, one was a typical photographic print, the other was from a digital scan of some sort. I believe it was one of the poster prints. He was pointing out how much greater shadow detail he could get in his poster prints than in his original photographic prints. Given the era, I am assuming he made low contrast photographic prints, then had them scanned for printing, adjusting the contrast prior to printing, but that's only a guess.

Digital scanning was so new at the time, I not only knew nothing about the process, but didn't connect at all with the procedure he was describing. I do remember the remarkable difference in how much better the shadow detail looked in the reproduction than in the photographic print.

Since we have some folks on this forum who were around then, are there any comments on the process, and what does this indicate for those of us wanting to move our work with LF negatives to a digital darkroom.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

It's apples & oranges. What we don't know is what detail is contained in the original negs. I'm sure it is more than adequate, since at least one process retrieved it. Maybe Ansel simply did not print that detail on the particular day he made that particular print. A good scan will get it. But really, what did Ansel want to do with his print?

[Deane Johnson]

I think it was that he was very pleased with the greater separation in the shadow detail with the scanned image. I'm thinking you touched on the issue at hand and that is that it has to be on the negative in the first place, which means if we develop a technique to get that detail into a print, we've made some gain. Holding detail in the lows and highs was an important factor in his work. That's made apparent in all of his writings.

I no longer shoot film, but if I did with the intention of scanning the negatives and doing digital work, I'd probably increase my exposure slightly and reduce my development slightly from what I would have done in the days the negatives were used to print on silver paper.

I guess what was going through my mind in starting this thread, perhaps in the wrong section of the forum, is that are we moving to an era where we may end up with even better digital prints than could be done with silver based papers? I assume we're not there yet.

[Merg Ross]

For the record, Ansel died in April, 1984. He had a long history of working with engravers and printers. For them he made soft full scale prints with gray highlights (his term). I believe Ansel was working with George Waters in San Francisco very early in his career and later with Dave Gardner.The engraver would selectively etch the print and produce half-tone engravings with good scale.

His first experience with laser printing was the publication of his book, Yosemite and the Range of Light in 1979. This may have been around the time you visited him, or perhaps you were a bit later. For the book, he made five sets of duplicate prints and sent them to a like number of printers. He said the results were very different, somewhat related to price, and he settled on NYGS. I have not seen the book for years so will not comment on the quality, but Ansel was very excited with the laser process. He also predicted that electronic images and negative enhancement would be the next advancements in photography. Guess he was correct.

[Deane Johnson]

Thanks for clarifying things Merg. I am obviously a big murky on details. Comes with age.

I often think of how exciting it would be to have Ansel alive today and active. He was always the one to learn how to push the available tools to the maximum in producing an expressive print. It would sure be exciting to see what his work with digital would produce.

I remember his commenting on the video cameras used to film one of the productions featuring him and his work. He was excited to play with some of the camera controls and immediately began to see the possibilities of electronic reproduction.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

Deanne, you wrote, "are we moving to an era where we may end up with even better digital prints than could be done with silver based papers? I assume we're not there yet.".

While this is a highly controversial topic, I believe the answer is a big YES, we are already there. I certainly feel I am. The very fine control of all adjustments, the ability to mask so cleanly (and with smooth gradients), and the opportunity to save and recall the exact settings for repeatability, are all huge factors supporting the current state of digital printing as an improvement. Of course, tradition has a lot to do with the way one thinks, and while it has huge historic significance, it also, sadly, keeps a lot of people from ever stepping outside their own box.

[Merg Ross]

Thanks for clarifying things Merg. I am obviously a big murky on details. Comes with age.

I often think of how exciting it would be to have Ansel alive today and active. He was always the one to learn how to push the available tools to the maximum in producing an expressive print. It would sure be exciting to see what his work with digital would produce.

I remember his commenting on the video cameras used to film one of the productions featuring him and his work. He was excited to play with some of the camera controls and immediately began to see the possibilities of electronic reproduction.

Deane, I knew you meant perhaps a few years prior. I can relate to your age comment, as I just recalled that I was at Ansel's family home in San Francisco before he built on the Coast. Of course I was very young. The Carmel house was special, I assume you received a darkroom tour and cocktail.

There is no doubt in my mind, although speculation serves no real purpose, that Ansel would be engrossed in the digital revolution. His appetite for new ideas was immense and you phrase it well, " to push the availabe tools to the maximum in producing an expressive print". He embraced Land with his Polaroid process, learned to photograph in color and lived to see the advent of laser technology. His legacy will rightfully be his accomplishments with the gelatin silver process, but his would be a welcome voice in this period of transitition to a different process. For some, silver remains the preferred choice, myself included.

[daisydaisy]

Hello,

Adams was primarily concerned about the interaction of light on light sensitive media. Indeed, this is pretty much the description of photography anyway -- painting with light. But I'd wager that Adams would have embraced digital only insofar as he'd be able to pre-visualize and capture that vision precisely. The real question (the fun hypotehetical) would be how Adams might have changed his workflow to embrace both the shot at the time the shutter is pressed and the shot and its options in Photoshop.
Document digitization service (https://scannmore.com/services/online-document-storage/)

[Pere Casals]

...Since we have some folks on this forum who were around then, are there any comments on the process, and what does this indicate for those of us wanting to move our work with LF negatives to a digital darkroom.

Moving negatives to digital process is something really straight, it only consists in regular scanning and mastering Photoshop, this also includes proofing. Easy, plain and powerful.

Mastering PS also includes making a print look sharp (if one wants sharpness), so care should be taken when resizing images to right printing size...

This is something very easy today, even with color, the EPSON 20000 uses 12 inks... awesome !!!

But you obtain a pure (and perfect) industrial reprography result.




...He also predicted that electronic images and negative enhancement would be the next advancements in photography. Guess he was correct.

I'm considering the Alan Ross way, this is advanced digital masking on film negatives. ...By accurate calibrations and PS one can (laser) print a mask that solves the most boring darkroom effort, while allowing photographer concentrate in the hand crafting of the important details of the print. It is also very cost efective.

It also can be considered what Salgado's team (Amazonas) did for Genesis, and for Taschen... They processed digital shots to be printed in Delta 100 film (8x10, 4 images per sheet) with a Kodak LTV Rhino to later be wet printed with a 4x5 enlarger and traditional agfa paper.


So today we have pure digital, pure analog and also amazing hybrid ways...

But analog is what is having more prestige every day.

Commercial photography will remain digital, of course, but I feel a return to analog. As a side example of this trend right now we can see Dunkirk projected in 70mm film. Star Wars VIII The Last Jedi (Dec 2017) has been shot and will also be projected with film, this may gross some 2 Billion again, plus 3 more in merchandising.

So IMHO today having analog skills may be a privilege, and going digital is perhaps the wrong way if one wants to add some (deserved) prestige to his product.

Kilian Jornet could ascend Everest with an Helicopter. This summer he ascended it two times in a week night naked, straigth from base camp, north face, no fixed rope, no oxygen, solo and running. This is prestige, not the chopper.

[tgtaylor]

"...These later-day pictoralists [as she called Strand, Stieglitz, and Steichen; she did not name Adams since he was sitting in the audience] did not know they were pictoralists. They were what I can only call, for want of a better word, the advanced or super-pictoralists school. The tendency here was to be very precious, very exclusive, very jealous of authority, excluding all others who would enter the sanctified portals of art. The individual picture like a painting was the thing...above all the perfect print. Subjectivity predominates...[and then we have] the imitators of abstract painting, the pure design, the cracked windowpane or the cracked paint. I think this represents the end...in desperation they might yet resort to stripping the emulsion off the paper, or spattering the print with hypo." Bernice Abbott in Atget

Thomas

[sanking]

...
I'm considering the Alan Ross way, this is advanced digital masking on film negatives. ...By accurate calibrations and PS one can (laser) print a mask that solves the most boring darkroom effort, while allowing photographer concentrate in the hand crafting of the important details of the print. It is also very cost efective.

It also can be considered what Salgado's team (Amazonas) did for Genesis, and for Taschen... They processed digital shots to be printed in Delta 100 film (8x10, 4 images per sheet) with a Kodak LTV Rhino to later be wet printed with a 4x5 enlarger and traditional agfa paper.
...



In the early days of digital I used to dream about ways to make masks to apply to my ULF negatives for printing in carbon. But by the time I figured out how to do it I discovered that there was vastly more control possible by just adjusting the image file in PS and printing a digital negative.

But it might be interesting even today to make masks and print directly some of the old negatives. In what book or article does Alan Ross describe his advanced method of making digital masks?

Sandy

[Pere Casals]

In the early days of digital I used to dream about ways to make masks to apply to my ULF negatives for printing in carbon. But by the time I figured out how to do it I discovered that there was vastly more control possible by just adjusting the image file in PS and printing a digital negative.

But it might be interesting even today to make masks and print directly some of the old negatives. In what book or article does Alan Ross describe his advanced method of making digital masks?

Sandy

Hello sandy,

Here:

http://phototechmag.com/selective-masking-part-iii-computer-techniques-for-the-traditional-darkroom/

http://phototechmag.com/selective-digital-masking-part-ii/

http://phototechmag.com/an-introduction-to-selective-masking-part-i/ (not digital)

It only works with diffusion enlargers, not with condenser ones.

Also his web site, http://www.alanrossphotography.com/tag/selective-masking/





Well, for what you do I also think that printing a digital negative is the straighter way, as you contact copy and you may not need the extra blocking power that silver has compared to ink . But if a printed digital negative is enlarged then the print may show pixelization because printers are targeting human sight capability, so enlarging it will be like looking a digital print with a magnifier.

It is possible to print very high quality negatives with a Kodak LTV Rhino, but this is fancy gear. Half of Salgado's Genesis exhibition was made in this way.

But the Ross way is powerful, still very analog but solving challenging problems, and it also has the unsharp masking effect.

The Alan Ross documents (paid) are very practical and proposed workflow has a lot of wisdom. IMHO more LF photographers should consider seriously that trend... it is a way comeback to darkroom.

I'm not saying that printing (contact copy) from a digital negative is wrong, not at all, but printing the original negative (enlarged or not) with the aid of a digital mask is also powerful, you don't need a high quality scan and a basic laser printer is perfect, because the mask itself do not need to be sharp. Sharpness (if one wants that) is provided by the original negative and perhaps by the unsharp masking from the mask.

Lynn Radeka also describes digital masks...

I was aware of that since this discussion http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?134227-Scan-and-print-or-Optical-enlarging&p=1358817&viewfull=1#post1358817 , since then I'm exploring that way, I've to use it in practice !!!

Regards

[sanking]

Hello sandy,
....
Well, for what you do I also think that printing a digital negative is the straighter way, as you contact copy and you may not need the extra blocking power that silver has compared to ink . But if a printed digital negative is enlarged then the print may show pixelization because printers are targeting human sight capability, so enlarging it will be like looking a digital print with a magnifier.....

Regards

Hola Pere,

Or how do you guys greet each other in Catalan? Should remember that because I lived in Barecelona for a few months back in the 1980s. I do remember all those signs advising people to "no pisat a l'herba."

I am not seeing any pixelation on my carbon prints, or any other digital artifacts for that matter. Even when looking at the print through a magnifier the image looks continuous tone. Perhaps it is being blurred slightly in contact printing.

Thanks for the links.

Best,

Sandy

[Pere Casals]

Hola Pere,

Or how do you guys greet each other in Catalan? Should remember that because I lived in Barecelona for a few months back in the 1980s. I do remember all those signs advising people to "no pisat a l'herba."

I am not seeing any pixelation on my carbon prints, or any other digital artifacts for that matter. Even when looking at the print through a magnifier the image looks continuous tone. Perhaps it is being blurred slightly in contact printing.

Thanks for the links.

Best,

Sandy

It is also Hola in Cat, I also was living in BCN, since 86 to 95... as a student and having jobs... Now you would see a lot of changes, the Sagrada Familia alone receives near 5 million tourists... now the city receives some 30 million people yearly, cruise harbour looks dunkirk :) In winter tourism is less pressing and adds some cosmopolite ambient...

I've just made some preliminary tests with digital laser printed (Brother) masks, when enlarged with the diffuser layer between the negative and the mask pixelation cannot be seen, I suspect that at some enlargement ratio it should be seen if diffuser not in place.


I was amazed when I saw that Ross was using Cyan an Magenta colors form CMYK printers, just like contrast filters... this is a powerful idea !!

[tgtaylor]

Alicia de Larrocha is one of my favorite pianists.

Thomas

[Pere Casals]

Alicia de Larrocha is one of my favorite pianists.

Thomas

... She was discovered by Frank Marshall, who was trained by Enric Granados. 4 grammy as best classic soloist, but this comes short to describe her talent.

:) this shot ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/24852468435/in/dateposted-public/ )was taken from some 100m to the Gaspar de Portolà home (anyway he was born in a near village, Castellnou de Montsec), discoverer of San Francisco Bay and 1st governor of Alta California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Portol%C3%A0

He named San Francisco and many places, now big cities.


World is so small... We have here a monument to him, donated by the State of California.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Balaguer._Monument_a_Gaspar_de_Portol%C3%A0_%28A-SiT-D0712%29.jpg

[tgtaylor]

Interesting - had I known that I would have left the bicycle in Barcelona and took a bus or something over to visit the site:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLrNd99YJ0

Thomas

[sanking]

It is also Hola in Cat, I also was living in BCN, since 86 to 95... as a student and having jobs... Now you would see a lot of changes, the Sagrada Familia alone receives near 5 million tourists... now the city receives some 30 million people yearly, cruise harbour looks dunkirk :) In winter tourism is less pressing and adds some cosmopolite ambient...
.....
!!

Pere,

My grand daughter spent a month in Barcelona earlier this summer and sent me some pictures of her visit to the Sagrada Famila so I am aware that it has become a huge tourist attraction. When I lived there in the spring of 1987 I went there several times on Sunday morning and was often the only person there.

Sandy

[sanking]

There are many abandoned towns throughout Spain, many of them in lovely setting in the mountains of Aragon and Galicia.

One area that I have visited several times is the Valley of Solana in the Pyrenees area of Aragon. Several towns that at one time had fairly large populations are now completely (or mostly) abandoned. Jánovas is one of the more interesting of the abandoned towns, though last time I was there we noticed some signs on renovation of a few buildings.

Also lots of abandoned towns in the mountains of Galicia, particulary in the Serra do Courel.

One of the interesting characteristics of abandoned towns in Spain is that many of the building are still structurally sound. They are mostly built of stone so until the wooden roof beams go the building does not deteriorate structurally.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Pere,

My grand daughter spent a month in Barcelona earlier this summer and sent me some pictures of her visit to the Sagrada Famila so I am aware that it has become a huge tourist attraction. When I lived there in the spring of 1987 I went there several times on Sunday morning and was often the only person there.

Sandy

Yes but that is the days before you discovered deodorant. Once you saw the Irish Springs Commercials you got it.

[Pere Casals]

There are many abandoned towns throughout Spain,

Sandy

Yes, there are many villages in mountain areas are more or less abandoned, mostly in mountaing areas. 50 years ago sheepherding became not worth in front of intensive breeding, and people in remote areas moved to cities. A lot of interesting sites to photograph.

Two weeks ago I requested a permit to use tripod/Norma inside Sagrada Familia, it was denied to me, as it can be an obstruction for visitors. But later I was told that Press department had holidays and I can try again to obtain it when they return, 28 this month. We'll see... I'll have to start explaining what is a Sinar Norma is :)

Anyway I don't know if it is a good idea, because instead shooting a photograph I will be photographed by visitors with mobiles !!!

[Pere Casals]

Yes but that is the days before you discovered deodorant. Once you saw the Irish Springs Commercials you got it.

Rodinal is a very good deodorant, also I spray it behind ears before going to a Pub :)