JOBO CPE-2 / CPA-2 / CPP-2

[abiggs]

Ok, this is a tought one. I idenitifed my source of frustration, which is my lac k of counter space, and my anal retentive nature in development - I want consist ent, reproducible results.

So, I am looking at the sub-$2,000 JOBO units.

The marketing blah blah blah on Jobo's web site tells me very little. What are m ost people using out there for developing 4x5 negs only? Which drum unit? This g ets kind of confusing, since I have yet to see one of these fine units in person .

I noticed that the CPE-2 is going for $575 on B&H, and there is a $200 rebate, w hich I could apply toward a lift. So, for something like $625, I would have a de cent system. What is the major benefit to going to the CPA / CPP systems? I don' t have a need to do large amounts of negs at one time, but I would like as much automation as possible, given that my space is limited, and my only water flow w ould come from a faucet in the kitchen or bathroom.

[Pete Andrews]

Mechanised drum systems are complete overkill for a few B&W negs, IMHO. Have a look at the 'Combiplan' tank. By the time you've loaded a drum, and tempered its water bath, you could be on the washing stage with a simple tank system. I use a 'Dallan' SS tank, but they're no longer available. The Combiplan is the nearest modern equivalent, and in any case, takes much less processing solution than the Dallan. If space is an issue, the footprint is about 1/8th that of a drum unit. If you don't also have running water and drainage to hand, then I can't see how a drum unit will help.

[william nagel]

I have the CPA unit and I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. You have excellent control over solution temperature which allows me to dable with chromes. It eliminates fumbling around in the dark. It eliminates staring at the timer every 30 sec. for agitation intervals. It just makes the whole process of developing negatives easier. The CPA/CPP units allow the use of the Expert drums (CPE does not), I believe the 3010 can handle 10 sheets of 4X5 film at one time. The Expert drums are definitely the way to go for sheet film in my opinion. The CPP unit allows cooling of the water bath if the temperature is too high, but that can also be accomplished with the CPA by inserting frozen water containers in the water bath.

[Fender]

I have a CPE-2 and do my own 4x5 and 35mm B&W, and 4x5 E6 processing in it. I then scan my negatives and print digitally. I love the CPE, the only problem I had early on was keeping the temperatures even since the CPE does not have a circulating pump in it. I fixed that by buying a $10.00 submersable aquarium pump. I can set up the Jobo, shoot my film, soup it, and have chromes to look at an hour later, beats the heck out of driving downtown and dropping my film off! My other suggestion is to purchase a plastic clothes hanging bag, the square type that hang in the closet. These make great drying booths which will keep the dust off of your negatives as they dry.

Hope this helps,

[Michael Kadillak]

I decided on the CPP2 for one fundamental reason - consistency. When you are trying to use the zone system to its optimal, I feel that eliminating as many variables as possible (temp and agitation) improve the results as much as practical. It all spells confidence with a big C. However, saying that the JOBO is not the system for highly dilute developers and extended development times. Sexton is a JOBO user and has a good write up in this website.

Many feel that trays and other tank systems work great for them and that is fine. You have to determine what works for you. It saves space and I like the automation. I also wash the negs in the drums. Best darkroom decision I ever made.

[abiggs]

Thanks for the responses so far. You have all brought up good a good point. Yes, I do spend a considerable amount on E-6 processing, and I would love to do them at home, if possible. Even if I splurged on the CPP-2, is this just crazy?

With B&W development, I am trying to solve a space issue, a consistency issue, and a pain-in-the-butt issue. Looks like I could add an entire process (E-6) as well. Wow, that would save me a load of cash in the long run.

So, a CPA-2 or CPP-2 would allow me the use of their professional drums. I assume the 3000 series. Other than number of negatives you can process at one time, what is the benefit? Less chemistry? Less likelihood of streaks? Just curious.

[Michael Kadillak]

I have never had a problem with streaks on any negatives processed with the JOBO drums. However, I use a small amount more chemistry than suggested just to be safe. I feel that the drums are probably the most innovative design we have seen in some time. Actually allows a water jacket internally and uses a reasonable amount of chemistry.

Do these use less chemistry than other systems? Probably not. Many I know to me at least, seem to run more film than they should through their tanks and trays whereas I use them one shot. The relationship between sq inches of film and development chemistry should be consistent and JOBO has done a considerable amount of testing to ascertain safe recommendations. I have never had a problem with 4x5, 5x7 and 8x10 over the last three years and I use different drums for each. You can easily justify the cost of a processing unit by doing the math based upon farming out all of your processing (B&W and color). The lift is useless with the larger format drums and you will quickly develop the technique to raise the lift system with your fingers and let the gears engage at the pause for rotation.

Another very important variable I look for no matter what I am considering to purchase - customer support. Call JOBO and chat with a representative and ask them some of your questions. Should you ever have a problem, it is nice to know that they will be there for you.

[J. Wolfe]

While I use a Jobo CPP, if you're just getting started in LF and not sure you want to continue, tray development doesn't take that much space for 4x5. The Jobo takes about 40" of counter space. Using 8x10 trays, you're talking about the same geography.

If you do decide to buy a Jobo, try to find a good used one. I've seen a number for sale that are in like-new condition. The primary thing to wear out on these is the motor, especially if there overdriven with too heavy a load of chemicals. These are frequently on eBay, as well as in used photo stores and camera shows.

Good luck.

[scott jones]

I use the JOBO CPP-2 for B&W 4x5 negs and all my printing. I am very happy with it. I highly suggest the extra expense for the CPP-2 because of the cold water solenoid. My darkroom often goes well above 68 degrees and the machine automatically lets in cold tap water to adjust. Much nicer than ice bricks in the water which will then keep the heater constantly running. By the way these machines average 500 watts power consumption which is a lot! You do not have to have special plumbing. I have just run a garden hose to the back of the machine for this purpose. I have a PVC small pipe that runs through the wall of my space to bring the water in. When I am done, I just put the hose away...

Comments on service support are true; it is great. If you use Tri-X and HC110 you need to talk to the service guys about the 3010 drum because there is a slight manufacturing defect in the grooves that makes this particular film only have some slight marks of non removed anti-halation coating at one end of the negative. They are very small. They have told me that this is being corrected, but current stock has to be sold off. All other films seem to be OK.

Comments about dilute developers are correct. My HC110 has to be very diluted to get all my zone system numbers correct on testing and therefore because of the one liter limit on fluid in the 3010 drum and because of capacity limitations, I can only develop 4 4x5 negs at a time despite there being slots for 10 negs in the tank. All in all I am happy especially with being able to work in the light and no smelling fumes at all. My wife who has the good nose in the family says that it is odorless...

Email me if any other questions.

Scott

[David Willis]

I've been tempted to pick up a used CPE-2 at my local shop every time they have them, but I haven't done it yet. I can't justify the more expensive processors. However, I do use a Jobo 4x5 tank and reel and use it to develop manually. It's great. I find it to be reproducible and easy. The fact that it produces such good results manually makes me want to try one of the processors.

Dave

[werps]

There is no simpler and consistent way to process film and paper than the Jobo systems.I got mine on Ebay and I love it.IF you are only doing a few negatives at a time then the CPE2 Plus with lift is the way to go.Just make sure you get a "Plus" model as it has a beefier motor.

I have processed 35mm, 120 and 4x5 film, color and B/W and have made B/W and color prints up to 16x20, with my unit and it's fast, easy and repeatble. No Fumes and working with the lights on are also a major plus.

[mark lindsey]

"There is no simpler and consistent way to process film and paper than the Jobo systems"

you've got to be kidding

[scott jones]

We JOBO users are VERY serious; Can't ya tell? :)

[werps]

Hi Mark , I'm very serious. I can process my film, do some laundry, play a few licks on one of my basses,or play with my one year old baby while processing 4x5 E6. What else can you do while processing? Ever drop sheet film in the dark? Really the Jobo is " about" as easy as it gets.

[kthompson]

Well there's always a Model 5 Wing Lynch, a 4, or a 4E...an ATL Jobo unit....or how about sending the film out to the lab or having your assistant run it through a deep tank?

[kthompson]

Almost forgot, for prints: Ilford 2150 processor, or maybe an Omnipro for both cibas & b&w. An automatic processor is nice because you just load the film, push the button & walk away...the chem is always up to temperature, and with gallons of E6 chem. in the tanks, it's not like you're mixing small amounts for every session... Or with the 2150, you get 2 weeks, or 1500 8x10s whichever comes first. 59 sec. dry to dry, with an infrared dryer....of course, this is all alot more $$$$$ than a Jobo...you talk about how fast it is to run E6 on a Jobo, but how much time do you spend mixing chemistry, waiting for it to warm up, and cleaning out the tubes after each run?

[Bruce E. Rathbun]

I have a question for Michael. Yoou stated that the lift was not an item that was needed. I am looking to purchase a CPA-2 for both 4x5 and 5x7 B/W negs. I get the idea that Jobo seems to think that the lift is a must. Is this a marketing thing?

[Markus Glueck]

For the 3000 Series Drums you need (as statet by a Jobo tech) a lift, because of the design of the drums. You also need a pump to open them when once closed. With the 2500 series some people get uneven negs or higher density at the edges.

[scott jones]

Hi Bruce,

As far as I am concerned, I can't imagine using my CPP-2 without the lift. It makes it easy to get the chemicals in and out of the tubes without getting wet/messy. Very smooth operation without having to concentrate on getting the tube off the machine, dump and fill, and then getting it back on with the magnet just right. And as has already been mentioned, you have to have it with the 3000 series tanks. Do look at JOBO's web site. They are usually running specials which get you something free if you buy a new processor. I got my lift for free. This is definitely not a marketing ploy; the device is well engineered and very handy and makes the processing smoother and quicker.

Scott

[Steve Wiley]

Has anyone ever had a problem with handle on the Lift? It seems pretty flimsy.

[Paul Schilliger]

Steve, mine broke. But I was using a big drum for 40x50 prints. The handle was e asy to replace by a section of PVC tube for electrical wiring and it was strong enough to keep for years then.

[scott jones]

Yes the handle is somewhat delicate. It fits on the lift a little loosely, but if you don't "crank" on it, it shouldn't be any problem. I give mine a slight twist after slipping it on and this seems to make it feel a little tighter... The handle has not affected the performance or ease of using the machine at all.

Scott

[Billcal]

I'm fairly new to this forum and I don't want to violate and rules or protocols. Is there a place to post items for sale or is this just done in regular forum posts? What reminded me of this is that I have a Jobo CPE2/CPA2/CPP2 in like new condition that I am thinking about selling.

Hope this question is OK.

[Skorzen]

There is a for sale section, you need to be a member for 30 days before you can post there (it looks like you have been).

[Ivan J. Eberle]

I always thought these JOBOs were ridiculously overpriced back in the day when they going for something like $1800 new, even before adding in all the tanks and drums and gew-gaws, but then I acquired an defunct D/R containing an old beater CPP2 almost a dozen years ago for free. I've happily and extensively abused it some more ever since.

Started off using it for Ilfochromes and RA4 without the lift, but it turned out to be a good call to buy a new lift a decade ago as it enables great consistency on exact pour-in, pour-out times (turns out to be rather critical with for consistent color with C41, RA4 and E6). Also helps keep from getting splashed with acidic bleach, and the drain hose makes it a lot easier to save chemistry for replenishment (back in the days of Ilfochrome printing, that was, due to the expense of the chemistry. Everything else has been one-shot).

Nowadays pretty much using the JOBO exclusively for E6. For this purpose, can definitely recommend the CPP2 over smaller versions if only because it holds more bottles. E6 requires 7 baths (incl the final rinse) and necessitates a 2 minute wash after the first developer for which you'll need ~500-750ml X4 of tempered H2O. Simple with the CPP2 because four additional 1L bottles easily fit in the upper tray, even while I am processing with a 2500 series tank holding up to 12 sheets of 4x5.

[Ash]

I use a CPE-2 without lift, without Jobo drums. I basically use it as a glorified tempering bath.

I got the whole shebang (CPE-2, 4x600ml bottles, 4x measuring cylinders, print drum, manual) for about £110 I think, it was half price in a second-hand sale. I removed the red plastic template.


I could have gone for a TBE, or the newer NOVA equivalent. But I decided for the cost I was better off using a CPE-2 and if I needed it, the motor drive was there.

The nuisance is the height on the back side (behind the small chemical bottles), since this is where a big Jobo drum goes, and is only partially submerged.

The brown glass bottles are my 1L of solution. These are a little rocky but they will sit where the plastic bottles are. For my purposes I fill the 600ml bottles (for 120 or 35mm) and let them rest where they normally would.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/second-belated/lfpf/DSC02545.jpg



I use the right hand side, where usually you keep the measuring Cylinders. As you see I'm using the spare 4th bottle (3 step c-41: cd-blix-stab) as a water-filled weight whilst tempering my empty processing tank (in this case 2x35mm).


You could easily do the same and fit a Combi-plan down the side where my paterson-clone tank is.


Hope thats some help.

[Bruce Watson]

Why the heck are you guys resurrecting a thread that's seven years old? Don't you think the OP has already gotten the information he needed way back in 2001?

[Ash]

Oops. I didn't notice that a new member had resurrected an old thread, that's my excuse ;)

[dng88]

When you search CPP this thread comes out. As a member who still getting himself on this, this thread and its update is very useful. No problem in keeping it alive.

[OldBikerPete]

I use a Jobo CPE-2 for developing C-41 5x4 and find it OK for that but the motor is not powerful enough to drive drums large enough to take more than one of the 2509 reels, so you are limited with production rate to four negs at a time (the reel can hold 6 but I find too many loading errors occur, so I stick to loading 4).
The CPA-2 has a more powerful motor and is larger, so it can accommodate the expert drums for 5x4 and 10x8. It can also drive the larger tanks to fit three 2509 reels and develop 12 5x4 negs at a time.
The CPP-2 is much the same as the CPA-2 but has a more flexible temperature setting control, so if you are doing both B&W and E-6 as you said then the facility to switch from 25°C to 38°C and back without fiddling with fine control would be a boon.

For color processing, the critical steps are quite short (3:15), so the split-second timing control available with the lift is quite worthwhile.

[tgtaylor]

What about the volume of chemistry to use in a Jobo? For example, on the Jobo 2521it is recommended to use 270ml of solution for rotation. However Kodak states that 667ml of C-41 developer is required to develope 2 rolls of 120 color film (the first number is per gallon and the 2d per liter):

Table 3-3 Capacity of Unreplenished Solutions—
Batch Processing
KODAK Film and Film Size
Developer Capacity*
(rolls/sheets) per
* The capacity for the other solutions (bleach, fixer, and stabilizer) is twice
the number of rolls or sheets given for the developer.
1 gallon 1 litre
Bright Sun, Bright Sun & Flash, ROYAL GOLD 200,
PROFESSIONAL PORTRA 160NC/VC, PROFESSIONAL
PORTRA 100T
135-12 48 12
135-24 22 5
135-36 15 4
110-24 32 8
120 11 3
220 5 1
4 x 5 inches 38 10
8 x 10 inches 10 3

Anybody have any experience with this apparent discrepency between Kodak and Jobo?

[tgtaylor]

What about the volume of chemistry to use in a Jobo? For example, on the Jobo 2521it is recommended to use 270ml of solution for rotation. However Kodak states that 667ml of C-41 developer is required to develope 2 rolls of 120 color film (the first number is per gallon and the 2d per liter):

Table 3-3 Capacity of Unreplenished Solutions—
Batch Processing
KODAK Film and Film Size
Developer Capacity*
(rolls/sheets) per
* The capacity for the other solutions (bleach, fixer, and stabilizer) is twice
the number of rolls or sheets given for the developer.
1 gallon 1 litre
Bright Sun, Bright Sun & Flash, ROYAL GOLD 200,
PROFESSIONAL PORTRA 160NC/VC, PROFESSIONAL
PORTRA 100T
135-12 48 12
135-24 22 5
135-36 15 4
110-24 32 8
120 11 3
220 5 1
4 x 5 inches 38 10
8 x 10 inches 10 3

Anybody have any experience with this apparent discrepency between Kodak and Jobo

[tgtaylor]

I thinkI see it now. (I should have read a recent post that answered part of it and made me see the light.) The volume recommended by Jobo on the tank is for the minimun volume to cover the roll (one roll on the outside of the reel?) during rotation. But the volumne of chemistry needed to develope the roll is set by, in this case, Kodak - the film's manufactor.

BUT [COLOR="Black"]since the amount of chemistry required in c-41 is dependent upon the films speed (faster films seem to require more chemistry), do you think you could squeeze 4 rolls of ISO speed out of 1 liter of developer instead of Kodak recommended 3 rolls since the Kodak table is given for films ranging from 100 to 200 ISO?

What do you think?:[COLOR] confused:

[evan clarke]

Thanks for the responses so far. You have all brought up good a good point. Yes, I do spend a considerable amount on E-6 processing, and I would love to do them at home, if possible. Even if I splurged on the CPP-2, is this just crazy?

With B&W development, I am trying to solve a space issue, a consistency issue, and a pain-in-the-butt issue. Looks like I could add an entire process (E-6) as well. Wow, that would save me a load of cash in the long run.

So, a CPA-2 or CPP-2 would allow me the use of their professional drums. I assume the 3000 series. Other than number of negatives you can process at one time, what is the benefit? Less chemistry? Less likelihood of streaks? Just curious.

You won't find a new CPP or CPA, there just aren't any and no more will be made. I was doing a global search last week for one and the guys at Omega Satter told me it is finished...Evan Clarke

[evan clarke]

Sorry, I slipped up on this old post too. I'm sensitive to this because I've been in Jobo hell the last 2 or 3 weeks. I finally bought a new lift for mine which helps a lot but she is old and worn...Evan Clarke

[Billcal]

I got the CPE-2 system mainly because I had tried various lightproof tanks for deveoping 4x5 sheet film and I no longer have a total darkness darkroom. I can load the tanks inside a changing bag (I made a simple support frame to keep the bag fully open by just push fitting some short pieces of PVC pipe and 90 degree fittings together inside the bag). When pulled apart they take up almost no storage room at all.

But after trying several tank designs I found the Jobo tank was the easiest and most reliable to load. But there were still two problems: solution temperature control and inconsistent agitation. I have long experience in developing 35 mm and 120 film in tanks and never had an agitation problem. But I kept getting streaks in 4x5 film no matter how careful I was about rotating, inverting, etc.

The Jobo CPE 2 solved all of those things. With the lift it is a breeze.


Send me a PM if you are interested in this system.

[tgtaylor]

I thinkI see it now. (I should have read a recent post that answered part of it and made me see the light.) The volume recommended by Jobo on the tank is for the minimun volume to cover the roll (one roll on the outside of the reel?) during rotation. But the volumne of chemistry needed to develope the roll is set by, in this case, Kodak - the film's manufactor.

BUT since the amount of chemistry required in c-41 is dependent upon the films speed (faster films seem to require more chemistry), do you think you could squeeze 4 rolls of ISO speed out of 1 liter of developer instead of Kodak recommended 3 rolls since the Kodak table is given for films ranging from 100 to 200 ISO?

What do you think?:confused:

Should read "...squeeze 4 rolls of ISO 160 speed..."

[Adam Carroll]

I just joined the forum and I just purchased a jobo cpp-2 with the manual lift and just about every tank and bottle you can get for the processor all in good working condition for $600. (All the tanks for film and paper, film reels and dozens of bottles overflowed a large Rubbermaid tote.) Did I get a good deal? Or should I have negotiated a bit more?

Thanks,

Adam

[Keith Tapscott.]

I don' t have a need to do large amounts of negs at one time
As a small volume user, have you considered buying a Paterson 3 reel tank and one of these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt_Lzd3LUnQ

[b.cipolla]

I am looking into purchasing a Jobo to process mainly C-41 4x5 negatives. After reading through the thread, I am certain I want either a CPP-2 or CPA-2. As far as I can tell, the only major difference between the two is the enhanced temperature controls of the CPP-2. Does anyone think that the CPP-2 will make processing that much easier or should I save some money with the CPA-2. It sounds like the only people that really need the temperature controls are those that are jumping from one type of film to another. Thanks!

[Sirius Glass]

I recently got a CPP 2 with drums for 135 and 120. The 3010 Expert Drum alone [up to 10 4x5s] makes it worth it to use Jobo over any tank including the Combiplan. I have no regrets buying and using this equipment.

Steve

[domaz]

I am looking into purchasing a Jobo to process mainly C-41 4x5 negatives. After reading through the thread, I am certain I want either a CPP-2 or CPA-2. As far as I can tell, the only major difference between the two is the enhanced temperature controls of the CPP-2. Does anyone think that the CPP-2 will make processing that much easier or should I save some money with the CPA-2. It sounds like the only people that really need the temperature controls are those that are jumping from one type of film to another. Thanks!

The CPP-2 has better temperature control and a cold water inlet. There is nothing wrong with a CPA-2 though it's a great machine, it will do the job and then some. In fact you can even get by a CPE-2+ and a 2500 tank and 2509n reel.

[Denis Pleic]

...
Does anyone think that the CPP-2 will make processing that much easier or should I save some money with the CPA-2. It sounds like the only people that really need the temperature controls are those that are jumping from one type of film to another. Thanks!

As Domaz said, the CPP-2 has a cold water inlet & solenoid...

I've started with CPE-2, then moved on to CPA-2, and recently got a very used and alsmost derelict CPP-2, which I brought back to function... I thought I'd use it rather than my CPP-2, since it also has better temp. control and a nice digital temperature readout (my eyesight is getting worse....). I tried it for a day or two, and then put it back to storage and returned to my trusty CPA-2.

Reason?

The temperature readout was consistently off - about a degree above actual water temperature. Given that I sometimes do E6 processing, and need precise temp. control, I decided that I actually have more control with the manual knob of the CPA-2, even though that one is also consistently off...
But, needing a separate thermometer to manually read the temperature on the CPP-2? - For me kind of defeats the purpose of having a nice big red digital readout :)

I find that manually tweaking the knob on CPA-2 and monitoring the temperature WHEREVER I want (upper bath, lower through, where the bottles are being warmed, or actual temperature of the chemicals inside the bottles...) gives me more control of the process, regardless of whether the built-in Jobo temp. regulator is correct or off by a degree or two...

As for going with the cheaper (and smaller) CPE processor, I'd stay clear of it if you're ever going to be doing E6 color (slides): it's too small, and does not have enough space for warming all the bottles you need (5-7 bottles for E6). If you're only ever going to do B&W and C-41, you might get by with it, since you need less steps for C-41: 4 plus water for washing.
If you're very tight with space, CPE-2 is a better choice, though - did I mention it's much smaller? :)

Just keep in mind that it can't handle bigger drums and larger quantities of film.

To summarize: you don't need the more expensive CPP-2. CPA-2 will do just fine. But, since you'll be buying either of those second-hand, anyway, buy the one with the right price (I got my derelict CPP-2 for free!).

[Brian C. Miller]

The Tetenal E6 kit uses three chemicals, so a CPE-2 would be OK. You only need something with a cold water inlet when you are doing B&W during the summer and your darkroom is above 68F. When that happens, I feed my CPP-2 via a fish pump in a bucket of ice water.

[b.cipolla]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys!

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys!

and for those who worry about resurrecting old threads, I assure you this is better than rehashing the entire topic from scratch! This is all very helpful. Thanks everyone.

Asher

[Roger Cole]

The Tetenal E6 kit uses three chemicals, so a CPE-2 would be OK. You only need something with a cold water inlet when you are doing B&W during the summer and your darkroom is above 68F. When that happens, I feed my CPP-2 via a fish pump in a bucket of ice water.

Not even then. I standardized my B&W at 75F. There's nothing written in stone about 68, it's just traditional. Kodak recommends 75 for T-Max and T-Max RS developers. I mainly use T-Max RS (because I love the results) but there's no reason you can't run D76, Xtol, Rodinal, whatever, at higher temperature with adjusted times either. My basement darkrooms have never run over 75 even in summer (but they are over 68 even in winter, because being relatively still like in a darkroom I myself will become quite uncomfortable after an hour or more at 68F.)

And oh yeah, I've done plenty of E6 in my CPE2. The three steps are fine but even with six steps you have four bottles plus four beakers. Just use both. No problem.

[Sirius Glass]

+ 1

[Sirius Glass]

I recently got a CPP 2 with drums for 135 and 120. The 3010 Expert Drum alone [up to 10 4x5s] makes it worth it to use Jobo over any tank including the Combiplan. I have no regrets buying and using this equipment.

Steve

I forgot to add that I picked up the Jobo CPP 2 with all the bottles, drums for 135 and 120 for $125US plus shipping [~$40US] at APUG.org. The lift arm was already broken off so I raise the drums and tanks by hand for both black & white and color with no problem. The 3010 drum I got new from FreeStyle.

Just look through the ads, they do show up and disappear quickly when they have a good price.

Steve