wide angle lenses (again)

[womble]

Hi.

I am a newbie to LF photography and am looking for a wide angle lens for my Horseman LE 5x4. I mainly want to use it for architecture. I did contribute to an earlier threat in case any of you have a feeling of deja vu.

I have been offered:

1) A Schneider Krueznach Super Aungulon 75mm F5.6 which comes with a Schneider center filter Number III

2) A Schneider Super aungulon 65mm f5.6

3) A Schneider Super Aungulon 90mm f8

I only want to buy one lens at this stage, so I was wondering which people would recommend. Is there a website with reviews of these lenses, or an easy way of finding out the image circle, weight, etc?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Best wishes, Kris.

[Ole Tjugen]

A search for "Super Angulon" should turn up some useful threads. In fact, THIS website is one of the best sources of information about just about anything LF related. Remember to read the articles as well, you will find them by clicking "LF Home Page" at the top of this page.

[Dan Fromm]

Also visit www.schneiderkreuznach.com, click on Fotographie for information on current lenses, hover the cursor over Service and then click on Archiv for older lenses.

Y'know, the three lenses you're contemplating see the world somewhat differently. If you have a 35 mm camera, the 90 sees about the same horizontal angle of view on 4x5 as a 25 mm lens on 35 mm still, the 75 corresponds roughly to 22, and the 65 to 19. Remember that the normal focal length for 35 mm still is 43 mm, not the 50 or longer that most people carry.

If I were you, I'd worry more about how the lenses see the world and less about whether they have adequate coverage etc. Although, now that I think of it, and without consulting any reference, the 65 is very wide for 4x5 and, IIRC, just covers the format, i.e., doesn't allow movements.

Good luck, have fun, keep on asking questions,

Dan

[womble]

Many thanks for the info. I realise that the different lengths equate to different angles of view (thanks for the 35mm comparisons, very helpful). My main concern is being able to have sufficient movements to correct for converging verticals in architectural photographs, my main reason for trying LF photography (too many years of taking bad photos of buildings on 35mm). If the 65 hardly allows for any movements then the choice is down to the 75 or the 90. At present my temptation is to go for the 75 which is (of course!) the most expensive of the trio on offer.

Best wishes, Kris.

[Joanna Carter]

Try Schneider's own site, they have a section for older lenses http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/index.htm

[Gordon Moat]

If you are photographing tall buildings, or wide buildings, then that 75mm can be very useful. The main downside I would see with that 90mm f8 is the relatively small aperture giving you a dimmer ground glass than an f5.6, though an f8 design is a much smaller lens to pack in your bag. In an ideal situation, you would have a 90mm and a 75mm to allow choosing which one to use when appropriate.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[John Kasaian]

The 90mm SA is a "bread and butter" lens for 4x5 architecture. While wider can certainly be useful, if I were playing that game and had one lens to start with it would be a 90 SA :)

[Eric James]

I can't argue for the 90mm over the 75mm, but a 65mm lens would not be a good choice for a newbie shooting architecture.

[David Karp]

Normally, based on my experience, I would say go for a 90, but I would hesitate to buy the SA 90 f/8. Not that it is a bad lens. It is just that for architecture, this lens will have a smaller image circle than 90mm lenses with either an f/5.6 or f/4.5 max aperture. (The exception to this is the Nikkor 90mm f/8. It has approximately the same image circle as the Nikkor 90mm f/4.5, Rodenstock Grandagon-N 90mm f/4.5, and the Schneider SA 90mm f/5.6.) The other issue with using a 90 f/8 for architecture is the max aperture. In my experience, the f/8 is much tougher to focus in dim architectural interiors.

[Marek Szawdyn]

Welcome,
I am new on this forum and also newbie to large format. I have Graflex Crown Graphic camera and two lenses: Optar 135 and Symmar 210. I am a landscape photographer and I want to buy 90mm lens. I ve been thinking about Super Angulon 90mm f/8. Is it possible to mount SA on normal graflex board and have no problem with focusing, or do I need other lens board? One week ago, I had in my hands very big lens called Komuranon 90mm, a price is 400$. I tried to find something about this lens in internet, but seriously there is nothing. Is this lens familliar to you?
thank you for your help
Mark

[David Karp]

I have put a Rodenstock Grandagon-N 75mm f/4.5 on my Crown with no problem focusing. Of course, there are few movements available on the Crown, so there is no issue regarding the image circle available on the 90mm SA.

There are also other 90mm lenses out there, like the 90mm Angulon, or 90mm Wollensak that have very limited image circles, but that might be available more inexpensively than the 90mm SA, and will work fine with the Crown, due to the limited movements available.

[Bill_1856]

my main reason for trying LF photography (too many years of taking bad photos of buildings on 35mm). Best wishes, Kris.

There's no need to go to LF just for that.
Save yourself a bundle and a lot of trouble by just buying a PC lens (or two) for your 35mm camera.
Or, if you're printing digitally, just shoot it on 35mm with your present lenses, and make the perspective corrections with Photoshop.

[Dan Fromm]

Marek, a 90 SA will fit on a 4x5 Pacemaker Graphic board and on y'r Crown. You won't be able to close the camera with the lens mounted, though.

Per Schneider's archive, the 90 SAs (f/8 and f/5.6) have fairly long flange-to-film distances (96.3 and 99.6 mm, respectively). Y'r Crown's minimum flange-to-film distance is 52.4 mm.

There's no need for a recessed board, but you will need a regular 4x5 Pacemaker board drilled for the SA's shutter. And you'll do best to focus on the ground glass.

[Rodney Polden]

The links below to tables of specifications for LF lenses, including some older lenses, are probably well known by many users of this forum, but they're such a useful resource for someone looking to buy the right one, that it's worth offering them once again.

lens specs compiled by Michael Gudzinowic:

http://graflex.org/lenses/lens-spec.html

similar list with amendments by Bruce Barrett:

http://www.brucebarrett.com/large_format/LF_Lens_Coverage.html

Mostly the tables cover Schneider, Nikon, Fuji and Rodenstock, but there are a number of others (some Kodak, Goertz, Sinar, Calumet, Computar etc) for which details are not always easily available.

'Hope this helps.

[Marek Szawdyn]

Than you for quick answering!
Lists are very usefull. So Dan, if the minimum distance in Crown is 52.4mm I can use also 55 lens? Or is it too wide, and only for 120 adapters?
Are there large differences in sharpness of this 90mm lenses you metioned?
I don't really need large circle, the most important thing for me is sharpness, straight verticals, and vide angle. Which lens do you think is the best for me? Do you know anything about this komuranon 5.6/90mm lens?

[Dan Fromm]

Marek, whether you can use a 55 on a 4x5 Crown depends on the lens. The rear cell has to fit inside the bellows. But I know a person who's used a 58/5.6 Grandagon on his 4x5 Crown.

I think there's a consensus to the effect that f/5.6 SAs are sharper than f/8s.

For people who've never used a wide angle lens on 4x5, I think the consensus is that a 90 is the focal length to try first.

Sorry, complete ignorance about Komuranon LF lenses. Have you tried using Google?

[Marek Szawdyn]

yeah, of course I ve tried. otherwise I woundn t ask. Can t find anything usefull.
Another question: A field camera like crown has opening front. We can open it to 90 degrees or more to avoid vinieting, but there is a rail which moves. When using a 90 degrees position with 75 or 90mm lens this board won t be in the angle of view of the lens? I think this is important becouse a rail moves very litlle when opening front board more.
sorry for my english

[aduncanson]

Do you know anything about this komuranon 5.6/90mm lens?

I own the 90mm 1:6.3 Super-W Komura. (I am not aware of a f/5.6 version.) The f/6.3 is huge and has a fairly long (and handy), ~130mm, flange focal length. The rear element is nearly 80mm in diameter. I find that it covers 5x7 and I have been happy with the sharpness of images from it, but my applications and standards may not be the most critical. They tend to sell for bargain prices compared to good condition Schneider SAs.

[Dan Fromm]

Marek, when a Graphic's bed is dropped it will not be visible on film with a WA lens. BTW, the bed drops about 15 degrees, that's enough.

If, however, the lens makes infinity with the lens on the outer rails (they're on the inside of the door, the inner rails are in the box) the front standard may not have enough rise to center the lens' axis in the gate.

[Marek Szawdyn]

Thanks, I will keep it in mind

I own the 90mm 1:6.3 Super-W Komura. (I am not aware of a f/5.6 version.) The f/6.3 is huge and has a fairly long (and handy), ~130mm, flange focal length. The rear element is nearly 80mm in diameter. I find that it covers 5x7 and I have been happy with the sharpness of images from it, but my applications and standards may not be the most critical. They tend to sell for bargain prices compared to good condition Schneider SAs.

Do you think Komura 6.3/90 is comparable to SA 90?

[aduncanson]

Do you think Komura 6.3/90 is comparable to SA 90?

Tough question. I have never used the 90mm SA. I have used the 47mm/8 SA and based on that I might think that the Komura comes pretty close. Certainly closer than a ordinary Schneider Angulon. The 90mm Komuras do not come up for sale very often, (Komura 75s seem a little more common) but I recall seeing one or two sell in the past year on ebay for something close to $250, definitely less money than a modern Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji or Nikon superwide.

I bought mine quite a number of years ago for a lot more un-inflated dollars.

[Marek Szawdyn]

I can t make up. I can buy this komuranon 6.3/90 for about 300$ but I am also thinking about rodensock grandagon 4.5/75 or SA 90. Are there much differences beatween the sharpness of them?

[seepaert]

Normally, for architecture i would say the wider the better. But the use of a 65mm is very restricted to that purpose. And don't forget to check if the image circle is sufficient for your 4x5.

[Carsten Wolff]

I don't think the WA Komuras have that great a reputation (hearsay only, sorry; I've never used one). If you ever wanted a 210mm lens though, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the 210/6.3 Komura Commercial....I use it all the time for b/w and colour 4x5, 5x7 and 6x17 work...lovely lens. Personally, I'd go with a 90mm of the Big Four (Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, Fuji).
If you don't care about brand-image (excuse the pun) just get a Caltar II-N, which is infact a rebadged Rodenstock Grandagon-N that, for some weird reason usually goes for far less money on the used market than a Rodenstock Grandagon-N. I've owned both; needless to say: I couldn't detect any differences.

[Marek Szawdyn]

thank you for the advice

[jnantz]

Hi.

I am a newbie to LF photography and am looking for a wide angle lens for my Horseman LE 5x4. I mainly want to use it for architecture. I did contribute to an earlier threat in case any of you have a feeling of deja vu.

I have been offered:

1) A Schneider Krueznach Super Aungulon 75mm F5.6 which comes with a Schneider center filter Number III

2) A Schneider Super aungulon 65mm f5.6

3) A Schneider Super Aungulon 90mm f8

I only want to buy one lens at this stage, so I was wondering which people would recommend. Is there a website with reviews of these lenses, or an easy way of finding out the image circle, weight, etc?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Best wishes, Kris.

hi kris

if you get the 65, don't forget to get a center filter.
i have both an 65 and 90 SA and shoot a lot of architecture with them.
they both have a different look / feel to them. the 65 has a lot of bow/distortion
to it compared to the 90, and with the filter you can get a little bit of movement out of it.
not much though.
the 90, you don't need the 300$ center filter, and you will get a lot of play with it.
there is a little, not a lot of distortion, and as john kasaian said, it is a prime lens
for shooting architecture :)
the 65 is more of a secret weapon if your back is against the wall, or you don't have a
lot of room ...
i can't comment on the 75, since i don't have one and have never used one ...

good luck!

john

[Marek Szawdyn]

what lens would you recomend for me? I cant figure. Iam continiously thinking about 90mm or 75mm to take landscapes. Or maybe something wider and not so expensive will cover 4x5 in my crown graphic without receesed board?
sorry for my english

[Marek Szawdyn]

and I didnt mention that Iam mad about parrarel lines on my shots

[rvhalejr]

Like many posters here I have several of these (1 and 4). Here is an example of
some published Data:

1.) SA 65mm f/8 lp/mm (Center Middle Side)
f/11 26 23 21
f/16 42 30 26
f/22 37 37 30

2.) SA 65mm f/5.6 lp/mm (Center Middle Side)
f/11 67 60 38
f/16 67 60 42
f/22 48 48 42

3.) SA 75mm f/8 lp/mm (Center Middle Side)
f/11 67 54 24
f/16 60 54 38
f/22 54 48 38

4.) SA 90mm f/8 lp/mm (Center Middle Side)
f/11 67 67 17
f/16 60 54 21


Number (1) is an artistic lens (moody magic diffusion vignetting and bowed lines)
and is light as a feather.

Number (4) is a formal architectural lens (very precise lines, no diffusion) and is
as heavy as a boat anchor.

Number (2) and (3) probably fall somewhere in the middle.

If you would like to be able to make these measurements yourself (for example
the pancake angulons vary a lot from lens to lens and the data for the 90mm
is incomplete ) search on the phrase "ultra fine focusing" for my post (in the
for sale thread).

When quantifying a lens and validating and camera system you need to go
beyond ground glass (good for composing, bad for lp/mm measurements).

When conducting High Precision Photography (and 4x5 fluid scans) you will
eventually find that out of the box film curl (which even vacuum backs cannot
tame) will be your biggest enemy.

I hope that eventually enough people will complain to 4x5 sheet film
manufacturers about flatness. Even an old graflex film holder can keep
film within +/- .001" of the focal plane if the film is flat to begin with
(sigh).,. :(