Goertz Red Dot Artar lenses

[Kathik]

I have just acquired 7 Apochromat Red Dot Artar C. P. Goerz AM OPT CO Lenses from a liquidation estate sale, the gentleman owned a graphic arts business years ago. I know nothing about them I was wondering if anyone would know approximate age or value? I have 47 1/2 IN F:15 /35 IN F:12.5 /30 iN f:12.5 /24 IN F:11 / 2-19 IN F:11 / 16 1/21 F:9.5 These all are mounted on metal boards with measurements. Thanks for any help you can give me.Kathi

[Jim Galli]

First, resist the temptation to just sell them all as a package deal to someone who makes an offer. The 47 and 35 inch lenses are quite rare and somewhat exotic. They don't sell often enough to have established values. Even the 30 inch is somewhat rare. From there down they are more common. When they were new the 3 longer lenses were incredibly expensive. There is a fellow here who posts as CP Goerz. If he were to consign the lenses and sell them for a fee I can almost guarantee you would get the most possible unless you are also a very seasoned Ebay seller.

[Jan Pedersen]

That is quite a collection of lenses. Red dot Artars are very sharp lenses and are used by many as large format taking lenses. Age can be determined if you can post serial numbers.
Value depends on the condition but the longer the focal lenght the higher the value. The 16.5 and 19" are quite common in barrel mount.
Photos would also be helpful to give you an estimate price.
Good find.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

If I could only afford a 35 in or a 30 inch for the 11x141 Great find! Good luck.

Jim

[Really Big Cameras]

Kathi,

The APO Artars were made for over 80 years. Originally, by Goerz in the US, and later by Kern in Switzerland and Schneider in Germany. Early samples (pre-WWII) were uncoated and are less desirable than later single coated samples.

If your lens is labeled Goerz and has a red dot between the words APOCHROMATIC and ARTAR, it is coated and was manufactured between 1953 and approximately 1971. If it says Made in Switzerland on the back, it was made by Kern in the early 1970s. If it says Schneider and Made in Germany, it was made after 1974.

Since you said they were Red Dot Artars and labeled C. P. Goerz AM OPT CO, they were made between October, 1953 and mid to late 1964. Sometime between May and December 1964, the company name was changed and they started labeling their lenses GOERZ OPTICAL CO. INC. to reflect this change If all the lenses are labeled as you stated, that gives us about an 11 year window from late 1953 to late 1964 when the lenses would have been manufactured. Are all the lenses labeled the same? If you provide the serial numbers for the individual lenses, we can probably narrow it down a little further.

However, for the purpose of valuation, the condition of the glass will be more important than the precise date of manufacturer. If you're not an experienced seller of photographic lenses, you may want to seek out someone who is to accurately assess their condition and help determine a fair asking price.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Kathik,

all of the above UNLESS any have LD ( low distortion ) on the face ring, then it's worth monster money. The attacked photo is from a 1967 catalog, hope it's a help.

[Kathik]

Kerry, Thank you so much for the information. The serial no are as follows

No 787336 24in F:11
No 788563 471/2in F:15
No 824275 19in F:11
No 793300 161/2in F9.8
No 820886 19in F:11
No 791343 30in F:12.5

The condition of the glass seem to be in excellent condition they all have covers on them. No visible damage very clean. Thanks, Kathi

[Really Big Cameras]

Kathi,

The ones with serial numbers in the 787xxx - 793xxx range were made in the mid-1950s. The two with the 820xxx and 824xxx serial numbers date from the mid to late 1960s.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)

[donrichardson]

Hello,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have just acquired 4 Apochromat Red Dot Artar C. P. Goerz AM OPT CO Lenses, 6in F:9, 10 3/4/N F:9.5, 19in F:11, 35in F:12.5, These lenses has the 806...series #. i would like to know how i can find the value of these lenses.

Thanks Don...

[Kirk Fry]

Ok, I am good for a WAG.
Depending on condition the 19 inch $200-500 assuming barrel more if in working shutter. The 35 inch maybe $300-800. Watch Ebay.
The short ones are less interesting as Artars have less coverage than Normal lenses.
Do the flashlight test and see how clean the glass is.
KFry

[Don7x17]

If the longer ones are in aluminum rather than brass, the interest in purchasing is greater -- 35 inch brass in Ilex 5 gets pretty heavy....

[davidj]

Just got two red dot Artars: 9 1/2 & 14. Any info about the particular aspects/qualities of these lenses would be much appreciated. Know theses are not the most rare focal lengths, but don't really care about value (they aren't really mine, were "loaned" to me indefnitely by a photogrpaher friend who doesn't shoot LF so much anymore, and probably wouldn't sell them even if they were), but more about the shooting characteristics and what they are known for specifically and why they are desirable.

Looking forward to playing with...

[Vaughn]

Solid sharp lenses. Medium covering power for the focal length...I do not know if the 9.5" will cover 8x10 at infinity, the the 14" will.

I use a 19" and 24" on 8x10 for contact printing -- no problem with sharpness. And the 24" on 7x17.

Do your's have shutters?

vaughn

[davidj]

An Ilex 4 and a Syncho-Compur.

[jrplatinum]

I have just acquired 7 Apochromat Red Dot Artar C. P. Goerz AM OPT CO Lenses from a liquidation estate sale, the gentleman owned a graphic arts business years ago. I know nothing about them I was wondering if anyone would know approximate age or value? I have 47 1/2 IN F:15 /35 IN F:12.5 /30 iN f:12.5 /24 IN F:11 / 2-19 IN F:11 / 16 1/21 F:9.5 These all are mounted on metal boards with measurements. Thanks for any help you can give me.Kathi

Hi Kathik,
Did you sell the red dot artars? I'm looking for a 47 1/2 inch for my 4'x8'x7' camera obscura.
Thanks,
John

[Louis Pacilla]

Hey John

Not to put a pin hole in your aspirations of picking up the 47 1/2" RD Artar from this member. She has not been around the forum that I remember and she last posted in 2009 It seems she joined the LF forum to gather prices and possibly to solicit sells on several lenses she had acquired to resell. I'm not sure she had much interest in large format photography so chance are good shes long gone.

As I recall, she had listed them all on eBay way back in 2008-9 using the information and pricing suggestion she was given by forum members.

[Steve Hamley]

Hi jrplatinum, Kathik's post is almost 4 years old now, so I doubt she's still following the forum. The lenses were her father's IIRC, and I bought the 30" and had it mounted in a shutter. I sent her a picture of it and might have her e-mail somewhere. If you like, I'll look and e-mail her or send it to you via PM.

Cheers, Steve

[renes]

Anybody used 4" and 6" Red Dot Artars? Do they perform as good as LF ones? I consider to buy 4", 6" and maybe 8 1/4" for my 6x9.

Not sure but are Goertz Apo-Artars exactly the same as Red Dot Artars? Do they differ?

[Dan Fromm]

4" won't cover 6x9, 6" will. I use a 150/9 Apo Ronar on a 2x3 Graphic, it is a very good lens and so is the 6" Apo Arter.

Old Goerz Apo Artars aren't coated, Red Dots all are.

[Roger Hesketh]

Hello Dan my 4" Red dot Artar covers 6x9cm even though the figures would suggest that it should barely cover 6x6cm at infinity. Clearly with this design the circle of illumination is greater than the circle of sharp definition and whilst the corners might lose something when this lens is used on 6x9 it is still very usable. Goerz clearly thought so too. See attachment.

ATTACH=CONFIG]88006[/ATTACH]

Roger

[renes]

Thanks Dan and Roger. All 6x9 roll film backs are about 56x80mm so the corners will not loose so much I suppose.

[Andrew Plume]

Thanks Dan and Roger. All 6x9 roll film backs are about 56x80mm so the corners will not loose so much I suppose.

Hi Piotr

they're far from fast lenses...........

best

andrew

[Roger Hesketh]

Hi Piotr

they're far from fast lenses...........



Agreed Andrew. Mine would get used more if the slow speeds of it's shutter didn't hang as well further reducing it's usefulness Needs a CLA.

Roger

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks Dan and Roger. All 6x9 roll film backs are about 56x80mm so the corners will not loose so much I suppose.

See http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_3.html , page 23. If Goerz' coverage claims are to believed, it covers around 80 mm at distance. 6x9 needs 100 mm.

[renes]

Hi Piotr

they're far from fast lenses...........

best

andrew

I am aware of that but I found f/9 quite good for landscape. All lenses I have are for black and white so I look for 2-3 lenses (3-4", 6", 7-8") for colour landscapes. Do not know yet which to choose but I look at Red Dot Artars, G-Clarons, Apo Ronars and Fujinon A (180mm). All probably peform similar (sharpness, contrast, etc) but do not know if they are similar in colour rendering which is one of my main criteria and overall look which has kind of pictorial sign. The only print I have seen is the one published in Using The View Camera taken with Red Dot Artar, and I like it very much.

Any recommendation of books where these lenses have been used for colour landscapes?

There are some images to see in Image Sharing section taken with these lenses but most are black and white.

[Roger Hesketh]

Hi Dan I did not particularly want to get into this particular debate regarding coverage with you and I thought long and hard before contradicting your previous statement.

The figures suggest it will not cover but I know from experience that it will and Piotr did ask if it would work. Please note I also sought evidence to back up my assertion that a 4" Apochromat red dot Artar is usable on 6x9. Well I grant you Goerz did say 2x3 at infinity which is not quite the same thing but then you never ever focus the thing at infinity. A point I will come back to.

Why it works. Firstly we are only talking about a possible loss of definition in the corners. Their is no vignetting due to drop off in illumination. As to loss of definition in the corners. So what. The subject of most photographs is not located there and with this lens it still looks pretty good. Probably equal to that of many lenses on axis.

Also as Piotr correctly pointed out the film gate of all roll film holders is smaller than the nominal film size. This helps the cause.

Thirdly as I said before you never ever focus the lens at infinity . Why would you wish to? The lens is very slow. Even wide open at f9.5 the hyperfocal distance is 30ft. When focused at that distance the lens's depth of field extends from 17ft to infinity. When stopped down to f16 which Goerz recommend to maximize performance that focusing distance drops to 25ft and everything from 11foot to infinity is in acceptable focus. Their is no scope for movements though but it works OK on a Miniature Graphic.

Having said all that. |Their are better lenses, easier to use normal length lenses, to use on 6x9. I favour the 101mm f4.5 Ektar which I know you also do Dan. Where the 4 inch Red dot scores though is as a macro lens but with the potential to be used at longer subject distances should it happen to be on the camera.

[Dan Fromm]

Roger, there are many coverage concepts. And many of us use lenses on formats larger than they cover in the sense of putting good image in the corners. If doing that makes you happy, I'm happy for you. I can get away with it for some subjects, not for all.

I don't use "hyperfocal focusing." I focus on the subject and let the depth-of-field be what it will. That guarantees better sharpness in the subject, doesn't always give as much DoF as some would want. If more DoF with the risk of less sharpness in the subject pleases you, I'm pleased for you.

I like my little 101/4.5 Ektar even though it has to be stopped down more than I sometimes do to give good image quality in the corners. But nowadays I use a decent 105/5.6 plasmat type instead of the 101 Ektar. Choices, choices ...

I have to apologize to you for not making it clear that I don't much care what people do as long as they're happy with it. I do care about what people say. There's a great risk of telling people that one's own practice is best for them regardless of their preferences. I try to lay out the alternatives, let people choose what suits them best. If I've failed, shame on me.

I know that nominal 6x9 is a poor metric approximation to 2 1/4" x 3 1/4". I've made the point many times.

I use a little spreadsheet to design flash rigs. It wasn't designed as a DoF calculator but spits out DoF as a side product. According to it, a 4" lens set to f/16 and focused at 16' will have DoF of 1.7 meters. This with a .025 mm circle of confusion. What CoC did you give your DoF calculator? Oh, and by the way, I think the algebra in my little spreadsheet is right but I could be mistaken. If I am mistaken, I'd love to know it. I'd rather fix what I have than fight. Would you like to audit it for me?

Interestingly, if Nikon's propaganda is to be believed the 105/3.5 Nikkor-M has all of the process lens virtues (apochromatic, sharp, low distortion) and covers 100 mm wide open. If I ever win the lottery -- I don't play any lottery, the odds aren't in my favor -- I'd look for one.

Cheers,

Dan

[Roger Hesketh]

Hi Dan I do not use hyperfocal focusing either except if I want a lots of depth of field for Landscapes and do not want to stop down too much.
Most of the time I use lenses with excess coverage anyway. Currently awaiting delivery of a 90mm Goerz Series III to use on 2 1/4 x 3 1/4. I really was surprised that a 80mm was all that this lens was supposed to cover and much of the foregoing is me trying to work out how I have managed to get away with using it on 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 on the rare occasion I have used it. The shutter issues have prevented me using it much.
Sorry unable to offer any assistance with auditing the spreadsheet. Far too clever that sort of thing for me. I would not know where to start. That is why I lurk here trying to learn things from people cleverer and more knowledgeable than me.

[Bernice Loui]

Lenses have been corrected for color since the 1900's and before as color correction was one of the key lens design elements that had to be resolved to improve lens performance.

There are a lot of factors that affect color rendition on film. Everything from varying color temperature of the light (varies with sun, over cast, haze and many other typical natural weather events), air pollution, color shifts due to reflected light and more.. all server to alter color rendition.

I'm a big fan and long time user of Goerz Artars. They appeal to me for their color rendition, un-exaggerated contrast rendition, uniform illumination and high resolution. What they lack is coverage (about 45 degrees) or image circle for a given focal length. These lenses work best as longer then "normal" focal lengths.

Of the view camera lens I have used and tinkered with over the years, the most neutral color rendition were produced by Kodak Commercial Ektars and single coated Goerz Artar.

Keep in mind there are and will be variations for a specific lens. Don't choose by brand or formula alone, test the lens to see if you like it and performs to your satisfaction. If the lens under test is a dud, pass it on and try again until one appears that meets your expectations and the lens reputation.

Don't obsess too much with trying to find the "perfect" lens. They are all a set of different trade offs. None are perfect, all have their strengths and weaknesses. Know there is much marketing behind selling imaging hardware and optics obey the laws of Physics regardless of what the marketing claims. Newer is not always better.

It is more important to focus on creating images rather than trying chasing down the magical image creation device.. as the real image creation device is the photographer.



Bernice





I am aware of that but I found f/9 quite good for landscape. All lenses I have are for black and white so I look for 2-3 lenses (3-4", 6", 7-8") for colour landscapes. Do not know yet which to choose but I look at Red Dot Artars, G-Clarons, Apo Ronars and Fujinon A (180mm). All probably peform similar (sharpness, contrast, etc) but do not know if they are similar in colour rendering which is one of my main criteria and overall look which has kind of pictorial sign. The only print I have seen is the one published in Using The View Camera taken with Red Dot Artar, and I like it very much.

Any recommendation of books where these lenses have been used for colour landscapes?

There are some images to see in Image Sharing section taken with these lenses but most are black and white.

[Dan Fromm]

Currently awaiting delivery of a 90mm Goerz Series III to use on 2 1/4 x 3 1/4. I really was surprised that a 80mm was all that this lens was supposed to cover and much of the foregoing is me trying to work out how I have managed to get away with using it on 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 on the rare occasion I have used it.

Are you sure about the coverage claim? Goerz American claimed much more (1913: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_2.html p. 22; 1951: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/goerz_3.html p. 17). FWIW, Boyer claims that the 90/6.8 Beryl, a Dagor clone, covers 164 mm.

Cheers,

Dan

[Roger Hesketh]

Sorry Dan it was 4.30 am and I had supped too much when I posted my last post. Even less lucid than usual. The 80mm coverage I refered to was for the Artar rather than the Dagor. My apologies thanks for going to such trouble on my behalf though.
Roger

[Jon Wilson]

As Louis noted, not many posts, Caveat Emptor. I must advise I just scanned the posts, but I didn't see any prices posted.

[quadmanmj]

Hello
Wondering if someone can help
I have a Goerz optical lense
Trigor 14 in. F-11
Serial #1100023
Wondering what it is worth?

MJ

[Mark Sampson]

quadmanmj, the rules of this forum prohibit price evaluations. Look at ebay for completed transactions, or search used equipment dealers for comparable items.

[Jim Galli]

quadmanmj, the rules of this forum prohibit price evaluations. Look at ebay for completed transactions, or search used equipment dealers for comparable items.

Or better yet, take good pictures of it, post it on Ebay and in 7 days you'll know exactly what it's worth.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Maybe just enough $ to buy dinner for you and one other at The Olive Garden.

[aaronhall426]

I saw a listing of the Goerz 47 1/2 F:15 Apochromat lens on ebay just not to long ago, how do you guys find out how much a lens is worth?

[Dan Fromm]

I saw a listing of the Goerz 47 1/2 F:15 Apochromat lens on ebay just not to long ago, how do you guys find out how much a lens is worth?

See post #34 above.

[Chris1260]

Greetings Goerz fans! ~ I have just procured a beautiful 19 inch Red Dot Artar without lens caps. The outside diameter is an unusual 62.5mm, and while I’ve found a couple old, used ones on eBay, I wondered if any here knew of a source for new caps… perhaps a little less expensive than $85 for the superior ones made by SK Grimes.

Have any here tried the push-on Kaiser 62mm? Does it expand that .5mm, or is the plastic too rigid?

Many thanks!

Chris ~

[abruzzi]

In the last 2 years most of the lenses I have bought have been without lens caps, so I always factor another $20-25 to get a pair of lens caps. My general experience is you're better rounding up than down, so I'd buy a 63mm lens cap instead of a 62mm.

[CreationBear]

SK Grimes.


Of course another way to go is to have SK Grimes fabricate a step-up ring that will accept modern threaded filters--that way you can use pinch-caps or the appropriate Kaiser push-on cap. That's the way I went, with the rationalization that the typical RDA is such a good "bang-for-the-buck" option optically that pimping one out is just playing with house money.:)

That said, I did buy an Ektanon from LA-based photographer Andrew Glover (an experience I heartily recommend, just for the jokes:)) that had a cap from a Pringles can protecting the rear element, so field expedient solutions are available.

[John Kasaian]

There are plenty of easy DIY lens cap instruction on the 'net. Check 'em out.
This one is way more involved, but I really like the end product
http://lungov.com/wagner/DIYLensCap.html

[Chris1260]

Thanks abruzzi ~ Of course - because you can add a non-lens-scraping-yet-safely-friction-securing liner more easily than evenly scraping off the required amount. Better rounding up than down - a good tip!

[Chris1260]

Of course another way to go is to have SK Grimes fabricate a step-up ring that will accept modern threaded filters —

Ah-Ha! A very good idea that I can easily add to my SK Grimes order. - Thanks CreationBear!

[Chris1260]

There are plenty of easy DIY lens cap instruction on the 'net. Check 'em out.
This one is way more involved…

Oooh! This is fascinating and looks like a really cool project, particularly for those like me who’ve always wanted to try leatherwork. A wonderful idea ~ Thanks John!