Btzs tube question

[kev curry]

I'm just about to process film in Btzs tubes (how cool are these things:) ) for the first time and wondered if there would be any issues if I were to process another batch of film straight after the first while the tubes still contain droplets of water from rinsing them out? I cant imagine the film sticking to the inside of the tubes but........???

Thanks
kev

[Jay Wolfe]

You could have a problem with the film "bonding" to the tube if the tube is wet. With Jobo expert drums, when I use them the 2nd and subsequent times, I fill the tubes with water before I load them. I'd suggest doing he same with the BTZS tubes.

[gari beet]

Hi Kev, how do you find the tubes? I have considered getting some for Halfplate if they would fit, what do you think, would 5x7 film fit in one?

I use a Paterson tank at present, same idea really, one sheet at at ime and roll it in a Jobo for the temper bath. I usually give the tank a rinse, dry well witha cloth and place it on a radiator for a few minutes before reloading, the film will stick if it is damp.

I have read threads to the effect that sticking the film to the inside helps with stopping the film moving around, either way I would expect it to stick as soon as you pour the developer etc in.

As for fresh developer I would say yes as I would want to have all the variables eradicated for testing. I have processed film in Pyro that has been left mixed overnight and got nothing, I was unaware that this timeframe was an issue and spent ages thinking maybe I had not pulled the darkslide, forgot to set the shutter etc. I mean, developer left overnight can't become inactive surely!!

Let us know how you get on...

Gari

PS I an in Inveraray this weekend and the colour is awesome, so , why am I here online? mmm, gotta go!!!
Take it easy

[kev curry]

Hi Gari,

I just received the tubes this week so Ive only been spinning them without film to get the spinning knack consistent before I do the tests:) I just took a tape measure to the tubes and there's no way they would be suitable for 5x7, they would stick out of the main section of the tube rendering it a non starter for screwing the developer filled cap's on... if you see what I mean. You would need the 8x10 tubes I guess. My main reasons for buying the tubes were the ease with which I'll be able to process 6 sheets at a time and all at potentially different development times in 60ml of developer per sheet with the lights on:)

Happy shooting.

I was out photographing before sunrise this morning. Tomorrows going to be a ''better'' day I think... its forecasted to be frosty:) You must be in an Inveraray coffee house in contemplative mood havin' a brew?

best
kev

[jeroldharter]

Kev,

Yes, the tubes (and caps) must be dry before doing a subsequent batch. The film will stick to water droplets and it is difficult ot insert the film into the tube.

I have experimented with different methods (manual, sponge, hair dryer, drying cabinet, etc). By far the easiest thing to do is get a 1 inch diameter dowel rod from the hardware store and jam a thin towel (I use flour sack towels) to the bottom. Remember that the towel will bunch up towards the top of the tube so the effective diameter of the tube+towel will be larger at the top than the bottom. That can make it difficult to jam the rod all the way to the bottom of the tube. At some point, I will sand or whittle the top end to the dowel rod for a taper but I just use a 1 size smaller dowel rod. Buy a few dowel rods up to 1 1/4 inch (? metric size) and see what works best for you. They are cheap.

I bought a plastic tote with a lid for storing tubes and caps. I have 12 tubes and 24 caps which makes for a lot of pieces to keep clean and dry.

I have been doing BTZS for less than one year and find that I keep re-doing it. Each time I keep learning more. Then I get more adventurous with testing different materials. Then I bought a used densitometer but could not figure out the instructions (apparently written by a Korean speaking dyslexic). Then I figured out how to calibrate the densitometer. Etc. I don't thing that my testing is "getting in the way" of taking pictures. Rather I think it is drawing me in to taking more and better photos and I have a much greater understanding of the process.

I would also recommend buying the DMAX newsletter advertised here and from the View Camera Store. It is a bargain at less than $20 and contains reams of accumulated wisdom about BTZS methods. Very informative.

[Brian Ellis]

I used the tubes for about 12 years. To dry the tubes jam one corner of a household towel into a tube as far as the towel will go (i.e. fill up the tube with the towel), then rotate the towel a couple times. Takes about 5 seconds per tube. That's how I learned to do it at the late Phil Davis BTZS workshop and it works fine. No need for any other tools.

Spinning the tubes is very simple as well. I put the tubes in the water jacket and with the palm of my hand I rolled the tubes from left to right 10 times, then right to left ten times etc. etc. There's nothing magic about ten, I just chose that because it was easy to remember. There are other ways - e.g. "pinching" two tubes with your thumb and forefinger - that will work fine too. The important thing is to do it the same way every time and make sure that you systemiatically change the direction of the rotation.

[kev curry]

Thanks Jerold, funnily enough that's just what I did 1/2 hr ago to dry out the caps and tubes... thin plastic rod 10mm-ish diameter wrapped in a tea towel stuffed down the tube...dried in seconds. I'm having the View camera store do the testing for me:) I'm still working on understanding the method of testing that Phil Davis used, maybe i''ll get there in time:confused:
I'll check out that newsletter.

Thanks again
kev

[kev curry]

There are other ways - e.g. "pinching" two tubes with your thumb and forefinger - that will work fine too. The important thing is to do it the same way every time and make sure that you systematically change the direction of the rotation.

This was the method I had settled on after watching Fred Newman spinning the tubes on u-tube, but I never thought about changing the direction of rotation? You obviously feel that its fundamental to do this?
I guess that the easiest way of accomplishing this would be to ''systematically'' move the near tube to the far side, say every 30 seconds ie number 1 moves to take the place of number 6 and so on.

Thanks
kev

[John Bartley]

I had a couple of problems with water droplets causing faint lines on my negatives until I realised that I could simply fill the tubes with water first, drop in the negatives and let them presoak for a short time before changing the water for developer. Having the tubes filled with water also eliminates any possibility of having any concentrations of developer left anywhere in the tube (not properly washed out) and also eliminates the need for drying them. I'm using PlusX Aero film (8x10 cut from rolls) and while there's no mention of presoaking anywhere in the literature it doesn't seem to hurt it at all.

cheers

John

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've been using btzs tubes for 10 years. If you are not presoaking your film in a water bath, then you must make sure that the inside of the tube is dry, otherwise you may experience streaking with some films. I've noticed it with efke 25 and ilford fp4.
I presoak my film be it 4x5 or 8x10. Wet film also slides in and out of the tubes nicely.

[jeroldharter]

Interesting about loading the tubes pre-filled with water for a pre-soak. As a practical matter, I unload film holders and put the film into the empty tubes on the dry side so I would not want water-filled open tubes there and I don't really want my film holders in the sink. I suppose you fill all of the tubes with tempered water in the sink, take the film out of the holders on the dry side, and then move over to the sink to load the holders? Don't mean to be dense but just asking for the details. Thanks.

Also, I am sure that the pre-soak affects the testing results. I have not had any trouble with streaking or uneven negatives without the water pre-soak. I shake the tubes vigorously for 10 seconds before placing them in the water bath.

I don't think that the agitation method is important so long as it is consistent and random. So, to the left x 5, to the right x 5, and rocking front and back in the water bath is what counts.

[Brian Ellis]

This was the method I had settled on after watching Fred Newman spinning the tubes on u-tube, but I never thought about changing the direction of rotation? You obviously feel that its fundamental to do this?
I guess that the easiest way of accomplishing this would be to ''systematically'' move the near tube to the far side, say every 30 seconds ie number 1 moves to take the place of number 6 and so on.

Thanks
kev

I guess you could do it that way. I know Fred uses the "pinching" method, he demonstrated it in a workshop I attended. The reason I didn't like it was that no matter how you do it, some of the tubes are going to sit still while you're "pinching" the others and moving them around to change the direction of their rotation. I preferred the constant rotation you get by lightly brushing your hand along the tops of the tubes from left to right 10 (or some other number) times, then switching your hand movement to the opposite direction etc. etc.. That way the tubes are rotating all the time just as they would be in a rotary processor.

But I think the precise method used is just a matter of doing whatever you feel comfortable with. The important thing is to do it the same way every time so that you develop consistency from one session to the next. And I do think it's important to change the direction of the rotation peridoically. I believe, without ever having tested, that it promotes even development.

[Brian Ellis]

I didn't use a presoak because I mostly used Ilford HP5+ and Ilford used to recommend against using a presoak with their films (or at least with HP films). I don't know whether they still do. I also never found any advantage to a presoak with the other film I used (TMax 100). Uneven development doesn't seem to be the problem with it that it was with the old thick emulsion films. And doing it means more time inhaling chemicals in the darkroom plus handling the film more. But to each his or her own.

[kev curry]

Thanks for all the info guys.... Tubes are Awesome! :)

[John Bartley]

Interesting about loading the tubes pre-filled with water for a pre-soak. As a practical matter, I unload film holders and put the film into the empty tubes on the dry side so I would not want water-filled open tubes there and I don't really want my film holders in the sink. I suppose you fill all of the tubes with tempered water in the sink, take the film out of the holders on the dry side, and then move over to the sink to load the holders? Don't mean to be dense but just asking for the details. Thanks........


I use D-D23 exclusively, so water temperature doesn't make any difference as long as it's reasonably close. I also don't have a dedicated darkroom, just a chunk of plywood across the bathtub, so there's no such thing as wet or dry sides in my equation. I pre-fill the tube with water (I use tap water) and stand the tube up on one end. In the dark, I set the film holder on my knee (yes, I'm sitting on the toilet seat....), open it, remove the film, roll it into a tight roll and drop it into the water filled tube. I screw on the top and turn on the lights. I use home made ABS tubes, so they're fairly heavy and stable when standing on end. I only turn the lights off again for as long as it takes to switch from water to developer, then once the film has been through the first developer stage it's desensitised enough that the light won't affect it anymore, so the lights are on for all the rest of the chemical changes. Maybe if I was using a more delicate film I'd have to change my procedure, but this PlusXAero is bullet-proof. It almost dares you to screw up so that it can show you up:).

cheers

John