Contact Paper Apologia / Lamentia

[Richard K.]

Can someone tell me why we cannot make a great contact paper? (with apologies to MAS who may in fact have come up with one - we'll see soon!) I remember being stunned silly when I saw an exhibit (early 90s?) of Brett Weston's contact prints of New York in New York. I've never seen anything like them since and I've coveted those papers or at least their quality ever since. I understand that they were the OLD Azo, Convira, Conviva and possibly Dupont Varigam? If you know. please tell me! Regardless, I haven't seen such beautiful tonal quality in any kind of paper since. Why? What is the problem? Was Cadmium really that essential (and at what step was it used?) that we cannot now replicate that quality without it? Ah, advancing technology is rendered impotent in this instance! I've used a couple of papers in the past 20 years that have come close: Azo (but not the 40s stuff!), Neogaz (beautiful!) and even PAL paper had a nice look. But NOTHING like those photographs of Brett's! Has anyone else seen these prints? Am I exaggerating? :) Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this! AND, I really hope that the new Azo replacement will be great. I know that MAS has put a lot into it!

[John Kasaian]

Foma had/has a contact paper IIRC. John had it listed on his website but when he closed up shop and Freestyle began importing Foma (into the US) it never appeared in the line-up so I never had a chance to give it a try.

Maybe it's available in the UK? Did you ever test it out?

I'm printing more contacts now and I'd love to give Lodima a try when it becomes available.

Of course, contacts on Galerie look pretty darn good to me! :)

[Merg Ross]

It depends on when the prints were made that you saw. Brett Weston contact printed on Haloid Industro, Illustrator's Azo, Convira and Contactone (Agfa/Gevaert). His favorite for a very long time, until its demise, was the Industro paper. He developed in an Amidol formula, slightly modified from that of his father. I agree, his prints are a treat for the eyes.

[Richard K.]

It depends on when the prints were made that you saw.

I believe they were printed in the 40s (vintage prints).

[Merg Ross]

I believe they were printed in the 40s (vintage prints).

That would have been before the introduction of Industro. Perhaps Convira. Were any of them 11x14 contact prints from the New York years? Those vintage prints were stunning.

As to Lodima, I saw Michael last week and he thinks this may be an even better paper than Azo. Certainly possible.

I don't really have an answer to your question except to suggest the lack of demand for contact papers, and silver based materials as the culprit. However, in another fifty years, when persons such as yourself see a Brett Weston exhibition, the question will be asked, "how did he do it". And then there will be a renewed interest in chloride papers and the silver process, just as there is today in platinum prints.

[Richard K.]

That would have been before the introduction of Industro. Perhaps Convira. Were any of them 11x14 contact prints from the New York years? Those vintage prints were stunning.

Yes, 11x14 and some 8x10. Yes from the New York years. They were absolutely stunning - I just walked around shaking my head and wondering what the hell has happened to our paper. I wish EVERY photographer could see these in the flesh!


As to Lodima, I saw Michael last week and he thinks this may be an even better paper than Azo. Certainly possible.

I really hope so. I wonder if Michael has had a good look at these Brett prints? He may have since he's produced a book on Brett's New York. Wonder if he feels his new paper compares to those used by Brett in the New York 40s? Or is it impossible without involving cadmium? Michael, if you read this could you comment on this last paragraph?

[Pete Watkins]

Don't hold out any hope of somthing appearing in The U.K., we can't even make P.O.P. any more.
Pete.

[Bill_1856]

I've noticed at several exhibitions that I may walk into a room of famous photographs, (usually printed 16x20 or larger), and all the way across the room a little 8x10 will stand out -- invariably a Brett Weston print.
I understand that he used enlarging papers for both enlarging and contacting.
(I'm afraid that I've never been as enthusisatic about his compositions as about his print quality.)

[Merg Ross]

Years ago, Michael Smith spent time with Brett and viewed all of the prints that he had in his vault. Yes, Michael is very familiar with the exceptional quality of Brett's prints, especially those on the silver chloride papers.

[CP Goerz]

Remember too that if you are looking at images from 1940 that there has been almost 70 years of oxidizing etc too so that would also have an effect.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I have a stash of Haloid Industro G2 and have been using it occasionally. It's lost contrast, I think, and has built some base fog, but once in a while I get something interesting with it. By the time I figure it out, I'll probably be out of it. The best strategy has been using it as a proofing paper for negs processed for Albumen, which are about a zone contrastier than negs for Azo G2.

[Darren Kruger]

Foma had/has a contact paper IIRC.

Looks like Freestyle has some Foma contact paper, FomaLux, but only RC.

-Darren

[Michael Kadillak]

Speaking from direct experience while assisting Michael and Paula with the Lodima process, you cannot believe how complicated the process turned out to be.

Formulas from the good old days were able to be found, but raw materials needed are long since gone. The solution was to start virtually from scratch.

Add to the mix the reality that many emulsion engineers have retired while the paper industry has contracted making corporate funding for printing paper a thing of the past and you get a sense of the mountain that M&P climbed. What was accomplished was like hitting the lottery.

Lodima is an absolutely fabulous paper so the best thing that we can all do is get ready to make a commitment to purchasing it in significant quantities later this year when the big order will need to be made. If we cannot muster sufficient numbers during the main order period, we may not get to use the paper that is available and that would be a crying shame. We need to get ready to commit to Lodima. Hopefully, the samples will get all involved excited enought to accomplish the stated objective.

Cheers!

[Daniel Grenier]

Richard. Brett Weston`s prints were stunning not only because of good, even great, paper but especially because of Brett Weston the master printer. It`s not enough to own a Stradivarius. You have to know how to play the damn thing.

[asnapper]

Foma had/has a contact paper IIRC. John had it listed on his website but when he closed up shop and Freestyle began importing Foma (into the US) it never appeared in the line-up so I never had a chance to give it a try.

Maybe it's available in the UK? Did you ever test it out?

I'm printing more contacts now and I'd love to give Lodima a try when it becomes available.

Of course, contacts on Galerie look pretty darn good to me! :)

I tried some of te Foma contact paper here in the UK, but it was an RC paper and nothing like Azo. Another contact paper I once managed to get here was made by Oriental and it was a lovely paper and IMHO better than Azo, but we are going back 20 years and we are now in the age of digital, so we are unlikely to see papers like this again unless Michael Smith can pull it off with his new paper

[Richard K.]

Richard. Brett Weston`s prints were stunning not only because of good, even great, paper but especially because of Brett Weston the master printer. It`s not enough to own a Stradivarius. You have to know how to play the damn thing.

You are, of course, absolutely right, Daniel. As a matter of fact the FIRST thing I noticed was indeed the compositions (which I much prefer to his later work) and the overall exceptional print quality (again much preferred to his later, contrasty work). It was only when I looked carefully at the prints and saw how the whites went on forever, the exceptional detail in the shadows and the incredible overall richness that I realized that the paper in this case enhanced the admittely fine printing capability of the artist. Seriously, one really has to SEE these prints to get an idea of what I'm raving (ranting?:) ) about!

[Richard K.]

........

Formulas from the good old days were able to be found, but raw materials needed are long since gone. The solution was to start virtually from scratch.

Lodima is an absolutely fabulous paper so the best thing that we can all do is get ready to make a commitment to purchasing it in significant quantities later this year when the big order will need to be made. ....


Michael, I was hoping you would chime in! :) Can you tell us specifically WHAT raw materials are long since gone? What was the role of Cadmium? Have you personally seen the Brett New York contact prints? Are you hopeful that Lodima will live up to THAT standard?
I would love nothing better than to have a good contact paper and I'm very excited and hopeful that Lodima will meet this need! I'm still kicking myself for selling a stash of Neogaz a few years ago!

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael, I was hoping you would chime in! :) Can you tell us specifically WHAT raw materials are long since gone? What was the role of Cadmium? Have you personally seen the Brett New York contact prints? Are you hopeful that Lodima will live up to THAT standard?
I would love nothing better than to have a good contact paper and I'm very excited and hopeful that Lodima will meet this need! I'm still kicking myself for selling a stash of Neogaz a few years ago!

On the perimeter of these activities I learned that most companies that produced photographic emulsion products all produced a contact printing paper and all had their guarded proprietary formulations. Many used manufactured albumen and special gelatine bases that have long since replaced by more cost effective alternatives not to even go down the road of how the processes now have yo consider environmental issues. Cadmium is a nasty product to work with evidenced by an article in the Wall Street Journal I recently read about the remnants of the battery industry using this chemical in China and the health issues that it has caused.

I have not personally seen any Brett Weston prints. One of these days I hope to do so. I did view an exhibit of Edwards work here in Denver several years ago and it was amazing. As to your specific question concerning cadmium, I would have to default to photoengineer over at APUG. I am sure that if you review his posts over there this subject is likely covered.

Reading the biographies of Strand or the Westons one cannot help but appreciate the fact that even in the glory days of photography, photographic films and papers came and went completely irrespective of their esthetic merits and over the years people learned to adjust. Edward had to learn how to use Agfa film as the sheet film he was using for years was discontinued.

Daniel hit the nail on the head with his comment about the craft of photography. All I can say is that Lodima is fortunately the best shot that we have at physically getting our hands on a modern high quality silver chloride contact printing paper.

If you have half a million bucks sitting around doing nothing you could probably could make a stab at the R&D necessary to accomplish what Michael and Paula have accomplished up to this point. Took them the better part of three years to get to where we are right now. After you get Lodima in your hands and have a chance to print with it, let's have this conversation again. The paper should be arriving stateside very soon.

Cheers!

[Richard K.]

Michael K., many thanks for taking the time to provide such a complete answer. In anticipation of the imminent delivery of the Lodima samples, could you post or direct us to where we could find the recommended developer (chemistry, time, temperature) information? I guess I'll be buying some Amidol? :) ...
Would Ansco 130 (which I have) be a good second choice? Thanks Michael!

[Merg Ross]

Richard, I can feel your excitement!

Another aspect of fine printing is, of course, the negative. When I met Brett in the 1950's he was shooting 8x10 Isopan, processed by inspection in ABC Pyro. I never saw him use a light meter except for the short period when he was shooting Ektachrome.

You will notice, as you have mentioned, a difference in his work starting in the late 1960's. From that time, until the end of his career, the majority of work was done with 120 film, most often with the Rollei 66 system. He preferred the slow films and Rodinal. The small camera made it possible to capture subjects that would be very difficult to do with an 8x10. His photograph of the Wigwam Burner is a good example, shooting straight up. Also, his later work in Hawaii of plants, would have been much more difficult with the large camera. And, his printing became much higher contrast to emphasize the abstract.

Sorry for the digression, I realize that paper is the topic.

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael K., many thanks for taking the time to provide such a complete answer. In anticipation of the imminent delivery of the Lodima samples, could you post or direct us to where we could find the recommended developer (chemistry, time, temperature) information? I guess I'll be buying some Amidol? :) ...
Would Ansco 130 (which I have) be a good second choice? Thanks Michael!

Amidol is the best developer to use with silver chloride papers IMHO. At michaelandpaula.com there are the formulas as well as other instructional materials.

In the face of adversity within an industry that we were told would cease to exist by now a bright light shines on all of us. I feel the excitment as well.....

Can't wait for people to get their hands on Lodima and see it for themselves.