Ordorless Fixer - Ordorless ?

[Ken Lee]

Is the Ordorless Fixer mentioned at http://www.jackspcs.com/f6a.htm really odorless ?

Will it be suitable for Pyrocat HD ? Will it require an acid stop bath ? (I currently use plain water and appreciate the simplicity and freedom from the smell of Acetic Acid).

Up to now, I have been making my own TF3 Alkaline fixer, using the formula found at http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/tf3.php. Since the main ingredient is Ammonium Thiosulfate, it smells like both Ammonia and Sulfur. Having changed residence, I now have to deal with family members who have zero tolerance. I use a portion of the basement as a "darkroom", and there is no ventilation per se... I need to find an alternative, right away.

The "odorless" formula above contains Sodium Thiosulfate, which smells of sulfur. It also contains Acetic Acid. So how can it be odorless ? Although I "love the smell of Fixer in the morning", my family does not, and given my humble darkroom, I long for an odorless formula - preferably one which I can mix myself.

[Toyon]

Clayton Fixer is completely odorless. Sprint Fixer, which I use, is low odor - no problem if fresh (using Ilford sequence). It goes well with Odorless stop bath (Ilfostop). Much more pleasant.

[Turner Reich]

I believe that TF-4 when mixed with distilled water is very low ordor. Does anyone know if that works with KRF?

[John Bowen]

Yes, TF-4 when mixed with distilled water is very low order, just a hint of amonia. TF-4 works wonderfully with Pyrocat-HD

[Toyon]

I think you mean "ardorless".

[seawolf66]

Ken: I use ilfostop and like it , It does not stink up the kitchen when I am processing film :

[David A. Goldfarb]

Plain hypo is pretty odorless. The downsides are longer fix times (and with that wash times), and that it doesn't last long.

[Ron Marshall]

TF-4 doesn't have much odor.

[Ken Lee]

Thanks for your help !

I have ordered some TF-4 and will try it with distilled water. I will also try it with my home water, which comes from a well, and is quite good.

I have also ordered some Clayton Odorless Fixer.

Perhaps my nose is over-sensitive, but I can easily detect the presence of plain Hypo, which is Sodium Thiosulfate. My wife is allergic to sulfur-based compounds, and can smell them at a great distance.

Yes - ardorless ! Compared to ardor (http://dictionary.weather.net/dictionary/ardor), I prefer the smell of.... contentment :rolleyes:

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I use the Clayton Archival fixer, it is very low oder (at least to my nose) and is priced right.

[John Whitley]

FWIW, I've been using the Silvergrain neutral pH fixer ("Clearfix"), which seems relatively low odor. Anyone had a chance to compare the odor levels of Clearfix to the Clayton odorless fixer?

[David Vickery]

The secret is to use Citric Acid instead of Acetic Acid. You can also add it to TF-3. I mix up TF-3 and simply add a few grams of Citric Acid to it. It is not completely odorless, especially in a warmer darkroom, but it is a tremendous improvement over using Acetic Acid. You can still use a water stop bath or you can add a little Citric acid to the water to make the stop bath as acidic as you want. Citric Acid will work fine with Pyrocat HD. It has a pleasant aroma and is used in many foods.

[Ken Lee]

Thanks - If I need a stop bath, I will definitely consider Citric Acid. Plain water does just fine for now.

[jnantz]

Thanks - If I need a stop bath, I will definitely consider Citric Acid. Plain water does just fine for now.

sprint stop bath smells like vanilia.
i stopped using it cause it kept making me hungry.

[Ole Tjugen]

TF-4 stinks compared to OF-1. :)

[Toyon]

I use the Clayton Archival fixer, it is very low oder (at least to my nose) and is priced right.

I'm just not getting these abstruse references.

[Ken Lee]

Ole, I can't tell if you are joking.

[Ron Marshall]

TF-4 stinks compared to OF-1. :)

That's true!

[Ken Lee]

What is OF-1 ?

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Toyon,

Thanks! You made me chuckle a bit at that one!

[Turner Reich]

OF-1 is Ole Fixer 1 bath.

[Ole Tjugen]

OF-1 is:

600 ml water
220 g Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate
30 g Sodium sulfite anhydrous
40 g ammonium chloride
20 ml Sodium metaborate 10% solution
OR 5 g Sodium bicarbonate

Water to 1 liter.

If it smells at all, use less alkali next time.

I mix this using four cups (the cup that's in the sodium thiosulfate sack) of one, a couple of spoons of this and that, and a goodly splash of the fourth - or a spoonful of the other. It's not critical. The amounts in the recipe were found by weighing my lumps, cups and splashes!

[Ken Lee]

Which ingredient is the alkali ?

Can ordinary Sodium Thiosulfate be used in place of Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate ?

If you have arrived at this formula in an informal manner, how do you know that it works, and doesn't give any bad side-effects ?

[Ole Tjugen]

The last - metaborate or bicarbonate - is the alkali. It's there to make it better buffered againt pH changes.

If by "ordinary Sodium Thiosulfate" you mean the clear rice-grain crystals, that's exactly what the Pentahydrate is commonly known as. I sometimes use anhydrous, but that would only confuse matters.

I arrived at the furmula by sitting down with pencil and paper, and thinking hard for an hour or so. I wanted an easy-to-mix odorless alkaline-to-neutral rapid fixer without using ammonium thiosulfate (I had run out). Sometimes a university degree in chemistry comes in handy. :)

It works. I've used it for years, for both film and paper, including T-grain emulsions.

There's nothing in it that could give bad side-effects, although I generally recommend not using bicarbonate in combination with an acid stop bath.

[Ken Lee]

Most Excellent - Thanks !!

Since you are a trained chemist, perhaps I could ask you: It seems that most of the Fixer formulas are based on thiosulfate of one kind or another - Sodium Thiosulfate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiosulfate) and Ammonium Thiosulfate - with the remaining ingredients acting to stabilize or buffer.

Could something else be used, without sulfur ?

What is it about OF-1, which prevents the smell ? It also contains ammonium chloride, which I would guess, has a rather strong odor too.

[Ole Tjugen]

The only alternative to thiosulfate is cyanide.

Thiosulfate is FAR safer!

The main odors from rapid fixers are sulfur dioxide from acidic fixers, and ammonia from alkaline fixers. In the middle there is an "odor-less" pH range - not totally odor-free, but with considerably less odor.

[Paul Kierstead]

sprint stop bath smells like vanilia.
i stopped using it cause it kept making me hungry.

Regular stop bath makes me want some chips.

[Toyon]

Regular stop bath makes me want some chips.

And a chip butty!

[drew.saunders]

I just recently got some Arista Premium odorless fixer from Freestyle. Just now I did what every chemistry teacher says not to, and took a good deep whiff, and it really has almost no smell.

Drew

[Vlad Soare]

Very interesting discussion. I'd like to make my own fixer, but I need to keep it as simple as possible, because sourcing raw photo chemicals in Romania is very difficult at best. There are some points I'm not very sure about.

1. I believe that sodium thiosulfate does all the fixing job, right? So theoretically I could just use sodium thiosulfate and water, and nothing more, and still get a well working fixer. Is this correct? Will it work just as well as a commercial fixer?

2. If I use only sodium thiosulfate and water, the lifespan of the fixer will be very short. It's understandable. But how short? One week? One day? Less than one day? Will it at least work for the entire duration of a printing session (meaning five or six hours in an open tray)?

3. Sodium thiosulfate is slower than ammonium thiosulfate used in commercial rapid fixers, so I'd need longer fixing times. How long?

4. Is there any other preserver besides sodium sulfite that will work just as well? I'd like something widely available, something that can also be used for other purposes besides photography (so it can be easily found in supermarkets or drugstores), because sodium sulfite is almost impossible to find locally.

5. What does the ammonium chloride do? Is it an accelerator?
I'd expect the fixer to stink if you added ammonium compounds. How come it doesn't?

6. What's the purpose of using the alkali? OK, it prevents pH changes, but why is it so important to prevent pH changes? Won't the fixer work just as well regardless of whether it's acidic, alkaline, or neutral?

Thanks.

[Ole Tjugen]

1: correct - as long as you're not using "modern" designer-grain films (T-max, Delta) or paper with high silver iodide content (Bergger Art Classic).

2: Five or six hours is stretching it a bit. One or two hours should be OK.

3: Look up "traditional fixers" - those mixed from dry powder.

4: No. Sodium sulfite is the second most important chemical in all photographic chemistry - second only to water.

5: Yes, I suppose you might call it an accelerator. Adding ammonium chloride has the same effect as replacing a bit of the sodium thiosulfate with ammonium thiosulfate, so you get a "half-rapid fixer". It seems that the chloride helps with dissolving silver iodide, too (silver complex chemistry is complex!).
It doesn't stink since the pH is adjusted to minimise ammonia release. With higher pH, it stinks. With lower pH, it releases sulfur dioxide which also stinks.

6. Yes, but then there's the stinky factor...

[Vlad Soare]

Thanks Ole, it's all clear now.
I did some thinking in the meantime and realized that making my own fixer will be far more expensive than simply buying a commercial neutral fixer. One liter of Rollei neutral fixer from Maco costs as much as 250g of sodium thiosulfate from a Romanian supplier, so I'll probably forget about mixing it myself.

I'm using plain water as a stop bath now, but I guess I'll have to start using a regular stop bath if I switch to a neutral fixer. How do stop baths affect the longevity of neutral fixers? Will the fixer simply start to smell worse and worse as it becomes more and more acidic, but continue to work normally? Or will an acid stop bath also shorten its life?
Or is the alkali so effective that actually no ill effects will be noticed?

[Ole Tjugen]

Commercial fixers are well buffered, so unless you THROW the paper from stop to fixer there will be no ill effects.

I use plain water stop in most cases, the only exception is lith printing where every second makes a big difference.

[Ken Lee]

Thanks for the explanation !

Why is Sodium Thiosulfate alone, not enough to fix modern T-Grain films, or papers with high Silver Iodide content ? What else is required ?

[Steve Goldstein]

Another feature of Ole's fixer that I discovered quite inadvertently is that, being alkaline, it turns slightly blue as the result of carryover from indicator stop bath. It's not very strongly so in my case, and the washed prints still have a white base. I suppose this would be true of any alkaline fixer, though I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

[Berin Loritsch]

I've recently switched to the Silvergrain chemicals, which are pretty much odor free. The stop bath is the strongest odor of all their chemicals, but compared to Ilford is a dream. The Fix has a neutral PH, and I can't smell it. It's as convenient as a rapid fixer but easier to wash.

[Bobf]

Ilfostop is citric acid based and as such is totally odourless. Against that is that citric acid stops do not have the same capacity or keep as well once diluted.

Fixers intended for minilab use are generally neutral-alkaline and low odour (I use Agfa FX Universal). As they come in bulk and the normal users are price-sensitive they tend to be low-cost too.

[Vlad Soare]

Ole, does your formula describe the working solution, or the concentrate? Do you use it as it is, or dilute it 1+4 like regular commercial fixers?

[Ole Tjugen]

It's the film strength working solution. It may be diluted to half strength for paper use, but I normally use it full strength.

[John Powers]

[QUOTE=Ken Lee;408026] Having changed residence, I now have to deal with family members who have zero tolerance. I use a portion of the basement as a "darkroom", and there is no ventilation per se... I need to find an alternative, right away.
QUOTE]

Hello, dealing with allergies and other health dangers, you might also want to look into a good ventilation system. Here some of us believe that if you don't, you or members of your family might not live to regret it.

I believe in sealing the darkroom as best as possible, installing an input fan and an exhaust fan. This is also good dust control. Kodak used to say the air must be changed at a minimum six times an hour. I like much more. I have found Panasonic whisper fans to be much quieter than most bathroom exhaust fans and reliable for at least the last four years. Also remember not to put an exhaust fan directly over the sink as it will draw the fumes right by your nose on the way out.

Do a search here and on APUG. Much has been written on the subject, but I thought it should be considered in this thread.

John

[CG]

... if you don't, you or members of your family might not live to regret it ... John

What fun chemicals are you using? Or, perhaps you are employing a bit of theater to advocate for ventilation. I want to point out that: "might not live" is the kind of statement that tends to be misinterpreted by the "chemical phobics" who will read this on the internet and freak out. And yes they do tend to overreact.

I guess if one presumes your end user is a child or if one is building for a school, sure. Or if one presumes the user is over 21 but a mindless idiot who'll make the nastiest, most dangerous stuff possible in the smallest possible unventilated space, and who then put his/hes face right down to the chemical and breath deeply for a very protracted period, then your warning might be valid. Ditto if one has pre-existing health conditions that make one unusually sensitive such as scarred lung tissues etc. Then, yes, ventilation is simply not optional. But for the average adult, mature user, it is ordinarily a matter of personal choice.

Most stuff the rest of us most of the time are likely to be, at worst, unpleasant smelling. I am building provision for ventilation into my soon to be finished darkroom, but that's so that if I feel the need, I don't have to make holes in my nice new sheet rock work; the holes are already available if wanted. I will just remove covers I have affixed to the holes. But I'm not installing fans and ducts unless I find myself wanting them. It is possible; as I get older, I find myself less inclined to subject myself to stinky fixer etc., so maybe I will ventilate. But then again, it's just as likely that I'll just find a low odor stop like citric or a water bath, and a neutral to alkaline low odor fix. We'll see.

Too many years ago to have an exact number, I built a number of darkrooms. I worked professionally. I never had ventilation and I never felt the need. I was, to be fair using, as my basic process, a very minimal arsenal: HC-110, D-23,Kodak Dektol, Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, Kodak Rapid Fix, Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner. Once, I mixed outdoors, a hypo eliminator that specified a fairly concentrated ammonia that came with daunting warnings. No way was I going to mix that in a confined area. I was outdoors and upwind so I was quite safe. That was an exception.

C

[Berin Loritsch]

I have had allergic reactions to some chemicals, most notably the Factor 1 paper dev and fixer from the Zonal Pro line. The film dev was fine for me. Typical symptoms included light-headedness, and a closing of the chest. I have no issues with Dektol, XTol, Ilford chems, and Silvergrain chems. Using the bathroom exhaust fan helped alleviate much of the issues, but not using the Zonal Pro chemicals really helped. I don't know what specific chemical I had a reaction to, but it wasn't pleasant. Nothing life threatening, though. I just had to get to fresh air and I could breath fine again.

[John Powers]

The original poster wrote “Since the main ingredient is Ammonium Thiosulfate, it smells like both Ammonia and Sulfur. Having changed residence, I now have to deal with family members who have zero tolerance. I use a portion of the basement as a "darkroom", and there is no ventilation per se... I need to find an alternative, right away.” And later “My wife is allergic to sulfur-based compounds, and can smell them at a great distance.”

I am allergic to ammonia and have been known to drop to the floor from it. I am also allergic to metol a rather common component of darkroom chemicals. I develop film with pyro that comes with directions suggesting that I wear a respirator and nitril gloves in a room with good ventilation. I choose to follow what I believe are safe procedures for my conditions. My doctor tells me that people respond to allergies in different ways and should take different precautions.

John

[Rick Levine]

This is the fixer I've been using for years. It was one of Ansel Adams favorites. It is completely odorless.

Kodak F-6 Fixer
(For Prints)

For 32 Ounces:
Water (125 deg. F) 20 ounces
Sodium Thiosulfate (Hypo) 8 ounces
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 1/2 ounce
Acetic Acid (28%) 1fl. oz.
Kodak Kodalk 1/2 ounce
Potassium Alum* 7 grams
Add cold water to make 32 ounces


For 1 Gallon
Water (125 deg. F) 80 ounces
Sodium Thiosulfate (Hypo) 32 ounces
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 2 ounces
Acetic Acid (28%) 6fl. oz.
Kodak Kodalk 2 ounces
Potassium Alum* 1 ounce
Add cold water to make 1 gallon


For 2 Gallons

Water (125 deg. F) 160 ounces
Sodium Thiosulfate (Hypo) 64 ounces
Sodium Sulfite, desiccated 4 ounces
Acetic Acid (28%) 12fl. oz.
Kodak Kodalk 4 ounces
Potassium Alum* 2 ounces
Add cold water to make 2 gallons


* 1/2 the recommended amount

Dissolve the hypo in the specified water, about 125 deg. F and then add the remaining chemicals in the order given, taking care that each chemical is dissolved before adding the next. Then dilute with water to the required volume.

[Vlad Soare]

Ole, if the ammonium chloride only stinks in an alkaline solution, is this also true about the ammonium thiosulfate? Could you use ammonium thiosulfate and still get an odorless fixer as long as you keep the pH neutral?
Also, is ammonium thiosulfate as unstable as sodium thiosulfate? Would a fixer made only of ammonium thiosulfate and water only keep for a couple of hours, like the sodium-based one?

[Vlad Soare]

I've just bought some supposedly neutral fixer, namely Rollei RXN.
While it's indeed slightly less stinky, it's very far from being odorless. It smells just like ordinary fixer. The difference is that with ordinary fixer the whole darkroom stinks like hell at the end of a printing session and keeps stinking for hours, while with this fixer the stink is only noticeable when I get close to the tray and disappears the minute I pour the fixer back into the bottle. It's an improvement, all right, but not as pronounced as I had expected.

They claim that, due to the neutral pH, papers fixed in it are easier to wash, requiring shorter washing times and no hypo-clearing bath. Why is that? :confused:

[Ole Tjugen]

Ole, if the ammonium chloride only stinks in an alkaline solution, is this also true about the ammonium thiosulfate? Could you use ammonium thiosulfate and still get an odorless fixer as long as you keep the pH neutral?
Also, is ammonium thiosulfate as unstable as sodium thiosulfate? Would a fixer made only of ammonium thiosulfate and water only keep for a couple of hours, like the sodium-based one?

The answer to both questions is: Yes. ;)

[Vlad Soare]

Ole, in your formula can the sodium metaborate be replaced by borax? I just happen to have enough borax available, but no metaborate.
Or, if I were to use sodium bicarbonate, would it be safe to use kitchen-grade bicarbonate from the supermarket? Is this usually clean enough for photographic purposes?
Thanks.

[Steve Goldstein]

Ole,

The formula you posted here on 6 November 2008 differs from the one you originally posted on APUG in the metaborate quantity. Your formula here shows 20ml of 10% solution, while the APUG formula is 200ml. I _think_ the APUG version is correct, i.e. 200ml or 10% solution, or simply 20gm of dry metaborate. Could you please confirm the correct version?

[Kevin Crisp]

I use F6 from Ansel's formula, I would not say it is totally odorless but the little you can smell is not in the least unpleasant. About 99% better than Kodak's General Fixer when used in an open tray. The Clayton product is just as inoffensive and I think Clayton is now supplying product to Freestyle for Arista labeling. I do wish Clayton would supply time information on their products, the time I called them up and asked the salesman was rather flippant about it.

[Ole Tjugen]

Ole,

The formula you posted here on 6 November 2008 differs from the one you originally posted on APUG in the metaborate quantity. Your formula here shows 20ml of 10% solution, while the APUG formula is 200ml. I _think_ the APUG version is correct, i.e. 200ml or 10% solution, or simply 20gm of dry metaborate. Could you please confirm the correct version?

Yes - there's a "transcription error" in the formula. My original posting was 20 centiliter, which seemed to be a bit too confusing for non-metric people. So I amended it to 200ml, but at some point it was erroneously written as 20ml.

The exact quantity is not at all important. My own measurement is "a goodly splash", and if the fixer smells of ammonia I try to remember to use a smaller splash next time. If it smells of sulfur I use more. The "odorless window" is quite large, but seems to vary with the pH of the water used for mixing.

I mostly end up using about a third to a half pack of sodium bicarbonate from the supermarket. For an inexact quantity guided by smell it is more than pure enough. :)

[Vlad Soare]

I managed to get some sodium thiosulphate and attempted to mix my own fixer for the first time. The thiosulphate looked like coarse sugar, only coarser, the crystals being approximately the size of rice grains. Is this how the pentahydrate should look like? Is the pentahydrate an intermediary form between anhydrous and crystalline, or is it actually crystalline? Mine certainly looks like crystalline. I used the amount given for the pentahydrate, but I'm not sure whether I should have used a little more.
Anyway, it seemed to work.

I used the following formula:
- sodium thiosulphate 240g
- sodium sulphite 30g
- sodium bicarbonate 5g

The pH was 9 before adding the bicarbonate and decreased to 8.5 after that. Is this OK?

It's completely odor-free for all practical purposes. The commercial "pH-neutral and odorless" fixer I've been using so far stinks by comparison. I have to get my nose right next to the bottle brim to feel a very faint, barely discernible, smell, which is nothing like the smell of commercial fixers (no hint of sulphur or ammonia).
The bicarbonate didn't seem to have any effect on the smell, probably because the solution was already basic, and there were no ammonium compounds.

There are a couple of things that seem odd to me. First, the solution is gray. It's completely clear, all right, I mean there are no undissolved particles, but all fixers I have seen so far were colourless, like clear water, while this one is a light (though clearly visible) gray.
Second, the clearing time of a small piece of film was two minutes with no agitation, and about one to one-and-a-half with continuous agitation. I expected it to be longer, given the fact that it's a "slow" fixer. Fixing for twice the clearing time will give me the same fixing times I used to get with rapid fixers (4-5 minutes). How come?

[Vlad Soare]

Ole, how close is a solution of 220-240g/l of sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate to saturation? Would it be possible to mix a more concentrated solution?
One liter is fine for film, but for paper I need two liters, and I don't have a 2l beaker. I was thinking of mixing 480g of thiosulfate with one liter of water, then diluting the solution before use.
Is this possible?
Thanks.

[Ole Tjugen]

The solubility is about 328 g/liter, so there isn't really much to gain by making a concentrate.

[Vlad Soare]

I see. Thanks.

[Daniel_Buck]

I've been using "Arista Premium Odorless Liquid Fixer" lately, and it's got a very low smell, hardly anything at all.

[Ken Lee]

I have tried TF-4 and Clayton Odorless Fixer: Neither are completely odorless to my nose.

Perhaps my well water interferes. I'd rather not have to use distilled water all the time - unless someone can recommend an affordable way to make it.

More importantly, I am now on a 100% single-use system - except for Fixer. I mix D-23 developer from powder: only 2 ingredients. I use it, and toss it. No chance of that going bad. I use Citric Acid stop bath: same approach. Only 1 ingredient. I use Sodium Sulfite for a Hypo Clear: again, mixed right from the powder, and tossed. Only one ingredient, and it's the one of the 2 used in the developer.

It's great not having to worry if anything is fresh or stale.

So if we intend to use Fixer fresh - and toss it - is there an even more odorless formula - because it requires no preservative or stabilizer ?

If we don't care about shelf-life or stock solution, then would Vlad and Ole's formulas change ?

I'm trying to simplify of course.

[Richard Wasserman]

I don't remember if I posted this earlier in the thread or not—and I was too lazy to look. I use Ryuji Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fix. It is almost odorless, MUCH less than TF-4. I am very sensitive to smells and find this fix to be unobjectionable.

Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% 200ml
Sodium Sulfite 15g
Sodium Metabisulfite 5g
Water to 1 liter

[Ken Lee]

Thanks - This looks like the classic TF-3 Alkaline Fixer formula. It's got an Ammonia scent. And the bottles of Ammonium Thiosulfate give off a faint smell too.

I used it for years, but started looking for an alternative.

For the stock formula, see http://www.jackspcs.com/tf3.htm

[Ole Tjugen]

The ammonium chloride is in the mix to increase the speed of fixing - despite being largely sodium thiosulfate, it works at a speed closer to that of "rapid fix". In this case the chloride will actually help a little bit with fixing high-iodide emulsions, so there is an extra "bonus"!

The bicarbonate / metaborate should really be adjusted to local conditions. My tap water is very clean, but a bit on the acid side of neutral. Others may find that this much alkali gives a strong smell of ammonia.

Personally I find ammonia much less objectionable than the stink of acidified thiosulfate, so i would rather err on the alkaline side - but if you get it exactly right, this will be as close to odourless as possible.

[Ken Lee]

Thank you Ole !!!

[Ken Lee]

I don't remember if I posted this earlier in the thread or not—and I was too lazy to look. I use Ryuji Suzuki's Neutral Rapid Fix. It is almost odorless, MUCH less than TF-4. I am very sensitive to smells and find this fix to be unobjectionable.

Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% 200ml
Sodium Sulfite 15g
Sodium Metabisulfite 5g
Water to 1 liter

On closer examination, this formula differs from the TF-3 formula.

TF-3 at working dilution would have 1.25 g of Sodium Metabisulfite, not 5g.

Is that what makes it smell less objectionable ? Even less than TF-4 ?

[Ken Lee]

I did a little digging into the US Patent Office and found the patent for Clayton Odorless Fixer. It's rather odorless, but it's definitely an Acid formula.

According to Anchell and Troop's Film Developing Cookbook, alkaline fixers have many advantages:

1. Less danger of over-fixing
2. Shorter washing times
3. More archival
4. Greater capacity
5. More stable
6. Can be formulated to have low odor.

I would rather use an alkaline fixer, even if it smells.

[Gem Singer]

The Photographer's Formulary sells a new version of their TF-4 alkaline fixer.

It's called TF-5.

Much less ammonia odor.

[Ken Lee]

Thanks - I just had a look on their web site. They don't mention whether it is alkaline or acid.

One other nice thing about alkaline fixer, is that you don't even need a washing aid.

[Gem Singer]

Ken,

The new Photo Formulary website leaves a lot to be desired.

The main improvement over TF-4 is that TF-5 is not packaged in super-saturated solution.

It's clear, with no precipitation that requires shaking before mixing with water.

Like TF-4, it's also an alkaline fixer.

[Vlad Soare]

Ole's formula must be perfectly balanced to be odorless. If it's too acidic, it releases sulfur dioxide. If it's too basic, it releases ammonia. There's just a narrow pH range, around 7, where it doesn't smell.
On the other hand, if you leave the ammonium chloride out, then there's no need for perfect balance, and any pH above 7 will do (well, not quite any, as I believe there's a threshold above which it doesn't work as a fixer anymore, though I'm not sure what that threshold is - is it 10, perhaps? I don't know, I forgot). A solution of sodium thiosulfate and sodium sulfite is totally odorless for all practical purposes, unless you put your nose near the bottle and take a deep breath, in which case a slight (but not unpleasant) odor can be detected. The bicarbonate keeps the pH from dropping because of fix bath carryover. Since no ammonium compounds are present, you can start with a slightly higher pH, to allow for the inevitable drop caused by the stop bath. This way it remains odorless for its entire usable life.

Personally, I prefer simplicity over speed. It may be slower without the ammonium chloride, but the simplicity, cost, ease of mixing, and total lack of smell more than make up for it, at least for me. So, I fix films for five minutes instead of three. So what? :)
It works perfectly well with T-Max, though it does take longer. It clears in four minutes, so I fix it for eight. No trace of magenta dye remains after washing.

[John Bowen]

Ken,

I've switched from TF-4 to TF-5 also. No shaking the jug for 10 minutes and less odor.....at least to my nose. I'd caution against pushing to capacity. I generally mix up 1.5 liters per 30 prints vs the 1 liter on the directions. Oh yeah, I mix with distiller water. I've noticed trouble removing the TMY dyes and also that AZO pink cast when using TF-5 to near recommended capacity.

[Ken Lee]

Here's a formula for TF-2 Alkaline Fixer from The Film Developing Cookbook. It looks a lot like Vlad's formula.

Water 750ml
Sodium Thiosulfate 250 g
Sodium Sulfite anhydrous 15 g
Sodium Metaborate 10 g
Water to make 1 L

"We only give this formula for users who are determined to use sodium rather than ammonium thiosulfate and who would like a formula superior to the traditional acid hypo fixers... If sodium thiosulfate is used to fix contemporary print or negative materials, be sure to fix for three times the clearing time, rather than the traditional recommendation of twice the clearing time. This will alleviate, though it may not eliminate, concerns about the ability of sodium thiosulfate to fix iodide-containing materials adequately... As with all alkaline fixers, washing is very rapid and hypo clearing agent is not necessary. For films, a two-minute wash in running water should be archivally adequate. That time can be extended to five minutes for peace of mind, but will not bring residual thiosulfate levels appreciably lower"

[mdm]

My bottle of hypam is coming to an end and i see that I can get 25kg of Sodium thiosulfate for only a little more than 5l of hypam. There is a thread on apug where someone recommends 3.2% solution of anhydrous sodium thiosulfate alone for one shot use with film. Will that produce reasonably permanent results, using a fix time of 3x clearing time? If used in this way, will it have any effect on the stain produced by Pyrocat, which I rely on to produce negatives with enough contrast for carbon printing. Mixing my own fixer would make developing film essentially free, or a sunk cost anyway, once the ingredients are on hand.

[Vlad Soare]

Here's a formula for TF-2 Alkaline Fixer from The Film Developing Cookbook. It looks a lot like Vlad's formula.

Water 750ml
Sodium Thiosulfate 250 g
Sodium Sulfite anhydrous 15 g
Sodium Metaborate 10 g
Water to make 1 L
Yup. It looks similar. I use bicarbonate because it's extremely cheap and it's available in very pure form from any supermarket (it's so cheap and clean, that I also use it as a source of sodium carbonate for developers :D). I guess any mild base, like sodium metaborate, or borax, would work just as well, but I just find bicarbonate more convenient.

The thread is two years old, and at that time I was just starting to mix my own fixer and wasn't yet sure about the formula. I used 240g of crystallized thiosulfate because I had found that amount recommended in books and on the internet. The formula called for 160g anhydrous or 240g pentahydrate. So I took the 240 for granted. However, the pentahydrate equivalent of 160g anhydrous is not 240g, but 250g. One mole of thiosulfate is 158g anhydrous or 248g pentahydrate.
So I'm now using 250g of thiosulfate, not 240g as I said two years ago.
In practice there's probably no difference, anyway.

Whether 15g of sulfite would be enough, I don't know. 30g seems to work for me, but who knows, maybe I could get away with less. I don't know how to calculate the minimum amount of sulfite required to preserve a liter of fixer for a long enough time. We need a chemist's help. Ole? :)

[mdm]

Ok, I see. I can do OF-1 or Vlads formula. Stupid question, but are theese used undiluted for film? Does one use the fixer for a while and then discard, and how long is a while, or are they replenished?

[Vlad Soare]

Use undiluted, for either film or paper.
With films, I test it from time to time and discard it when the clearing time becomes too long. I find that sometimes it's still good after three or four months. It exhausts from use faster than it oxidizes.
With FB papers, I use the two bath fixing method. I discard the first bath after approximately twenty 8x10" prints, replace it with the second, then mix a new second bath.

[mdm]

Thanks, that sounds sensible.