A Chance To "Play" With 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 and 3 1/4 x 4 1/4

[lomomagix]

Greetings everyone!

First... I have practically zero experience with sheet film!

I came across an uncle who found out about my medium format cameras and offered me the chance to "play" around with some of his old view cameras if I wanted to (and of course I wanted to). It turns out that one of his old view cameras took 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 and another one took 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 films!

And now my questions...

1) It seems to me that the very few vendors of film this size only have them in B/W. Is there something I should know that would stop me from cutting larger sheet film to these sizes so I can "play" with the cameras using colored and slide films as well?

2) If I make an even greater leap and decide to try developing the films myself, would it be possible to use the tanks designed for 4x5 for these small sheet films without having to do any modifications?

3) An enlarger is out of the question and I would be interested in scanning the resulting negatives. The 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 I suppose would fit in the MF holder of an Epson V500 but the 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 would not. I guess I could use the HP G4050 of a friend but it would be too small for the 4x5 holder. Any nice tips on how to fabricate a film holder for that (such as what materials would be good to use)?

Thank you very much in advance and pardon me for the long post.

[Jiri Vasina]

ad 1) No, there is no inherent problem cutting large film to size. The less cuts, the better (if you could only cut one straight cut, it's best and simplest; if you have to cut more, there's higher chance something will go wrong - or you'll scratch the film).

BUT, I wouldn't recommend cutting color film, especially if you are not developing the film yourself, because who would develop the film? It will be more difficult to find a lab to develop non-standard film size (well, I mean, non-common film size, but it's the same to the labs ;) ). I'd recommend first start with BW film and later, you can add color. (also, for both the sizes, roll film backs are available. If you insist on using color film, one good way is to use this roll film back - I use one on my Graflex 3x4 SLR).

ad 2) It depends on the tanks you have. The 2 1/4x3 1/4 size should be easier IMO, my Jobo reels accept 6.5x9cm sheet film. Also the HP CombiPlan tank accepts the 6.5x9cm sheet film readily. With 3 1/4x4 1/4, it's more likely that your tank in standard configuration won't accept the film. (I'm still in the process of adapting one of my Jobo reels)

ad 3) I made holders for my Epson V700 from "magnetic sheets" (I don't know the precise name, a plastic sheet approx. 0.7-1mm thick that is magnetic - I have found this idea somewhere on the net). Holds the film reasonably well and flat.

[Dan Fromm]

Which backs do the cameras have?

I ask because there are roll holders for both formats, and of two types. The first slips in like a sheet film holder, the second attaches to a Graflok type back. Both take 120 film, will allow you to shoot, depending on the holder, nominal 6x6, 6x7, or 6x9 with either camera.

[lomomagix]

(also, for both the sizes, roll film backs are available. If you insist on using color film, one good way is to use this roll film back - I use one on my Graflex 3x4 SLR).

ad 2) It depends on the tanks you have. The 2 1/4x3 1/4 size should be easier IMO, my Jobo reels accept 6.5x9cm sheet film. Also the HP CombiPlan tank accepts the 6.5x9cm sheet film readily. With 3 1/4x4 1/4, it's more likely that your tank in standard configuration won't accept the film. (I'm still in the process of adapting one of my Jobo reels)



Thanks Jiri. What size of images come out of your roll film back for the 3x4?

Also, I was actually thinking of the rectangular tanks made for paper and sheet film, not the cylindrical tanks. Frankly, though, I've never physically seen one, only in pictures, so I have really no idea how they operate and if they would work with these sizes of films.

[lomomagix]

Which backs do the cameras have?

I ask because there are roll holders for both formats, and of two types. The first slips in like a sheet film holder, the second attaches to a Graflok type back. Both take 120 film, will allow you to shoot, depending on the holder, nominal 6x6, 6x7, or 6x9 with either camera.

Thanks Dan!

For the 3 1/4 x 4 1/4, he says he has the ordinary film backs but he says he might be able to retrieve a film pack adapter (no idea what that is) he lent a friend some time ago.

For the 2 1/4 x 3 1/4, he says he has a Graflok back and may also be able to retrieve a Graphic 23 back (again, no idea what those are). Are ordinary backs available for this camera as well?

I don't think I would invest roll film backs for the cameras since as I said, I was only given the chance to indefinitely play with them but they're not mine.

[Jiri Vasina]

The size of the rollfilm image depends on the roll film holder, and can be 6x6cm, 6x7cm, 6x9cm. Depending on the type of the holder, it can be attached either to the 3 1/4x4 1/4, or 2 1/4x3 1/4 cameras. All the holders use regular 120 size film (there are some for 220 film, too).

When you use the roll film holder on the larger (3x4) camera, you loose some of the possible image size, but basically you have the choice: either have a large(r) image size - 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 and have it in BW; or you have a small(er) image - most commonly 6x9cm (that is approx. 2 1/4 x 3 1/4") and have the possibility of color.

Graphic 23 back is the one you want, for either camera - it's the roll film back that lets you get 8 pictures 6x9cm, (or approx. 2 1/4 x 3 1/4" - hence the name "23" - "2x3").

You don't want a film pack adapter. To my best knowledge, there is no current film available that you would put in it.

If you are not going to invest in the roll film backs at all, you're basically using them for BW. But what is wrong on BW? :) ;)

[Dan Fromm]

As Jiri said, the film pack adapter is useless because film in packs hasn't been made for decades.

I take it that the cameras are Graphics (Speed or Crown).

Sheet film is loaded into film holders (in UK English, dark slides for ones that are one-sided and hold one sheet, double dark slides for ones that are double-sided and hold two sheets) that slip into the camera between the gate (back of the box) and focusing panel. Graflok and Graphic are different types of back of box/focusing panel. The Graflok focusing panel can easily be removed from the camera and replaced by a roll film holder, the Graphic is permanently attached so isn't very compatible with, e.g., Graphic 23 roll holders that are made to attach to Graflok backs.

If you're going to use a roll holder, play with the 2x3 camera. It is smaller and lighter than the 3x4. And roll holders for both shoot the same size image.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

If the cameras are Graphics, visit www.graflex.org and take a good look around. Read the FAQs, ...

[lomomagix]

If you are not going to invest in the roll film backs at all, you're basically using them for BW. But what is wrong on BW? :) ;)
Oh no, Jiri, nothing wrong with B/W for me! In fact, I'm very much interested in using B/W film for these cameras. I just want to try both. :)

Another question just for the sake of trivia: would there also be a roll film back for 6x8, or are they all limited to the ones you mentioned (6x6, 6x7, 6x9)?

[lomomagix]

As Jiri said, the film pack adapter is useless because film in packs hasn't been made for decades.

I take it that the cameras are Graphics (Speed or Crown).

Sheet film is loaded into film holders (in UK English, dark slides for ones that are one-sided and hold one sheet, double dark slides for ones that are double-sided and hold two sheets) that slip into the camera between the gate (back of the box) and focusing panel. Graflok and Graphic are different types of back of box/focusing panel. The Graflok focusing panel can easily be removed from the camera and replaced by a roll film holder, the Graphic is permanently attached so isn't very compatible with, e.g., Graphic 23 roll holders that are made to attach to Graflok backs.

If you're going to use a roll holder, play with the 2x3 camera. It is smaller and lighter than the 3x4. And roll holders for both shoot the same size image.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan

If the cameras are Graphics, visit www.graflex.org and take a good look around. Read the FAQs, ...

Thanks for all the info, Dan, and thanks for that nice link too.

So I take it that regarding these types of cameras, the Graflok back would be more desirable because a roll film back can be attached to it. I suppose a Graflok back can also take the regular 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 and 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 sheet film for them, right? I mean, I don't have to remove the Graflok back to use those films I guess. Hmmm, I really should be exploring that link you gave me now.

One last question, will the same Graphic 23 roll film back be compatible with both sizes of cameras (assuming they both have that Graflock back) or is there a specific one for the 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 and a specific one for the 2 1/4 x 3 1/4?

[Dan Fromm]

A 2x3 back will accept a roll holder made to fit a 2x3 back and 2x3 sheet film holders.

A 3x4 back will accept a roll holder made to fit a 3x4 back and 3x4 sheet film holders.

3x4 is larger than 2x3, what fits one won't fit the other. Attachments are size-specific.

[lomomagix]

A 2x3 back will accept a roll holder made to fit a 2x3 back and 2x3 sheet film holders.

A 3x4 back will accept a roll holder made to fit a 3x4 back and 3x4 sheet film holders.

3x4 is larger than 2x3, what fits one won't fit the other. Attachments are size-specific.

Great! Thanks a lot Dan!

[Jiri Vasina]

And just for the sake of trivia, I'm not aware of a 6×8cm roll film holder... ;)

[Dan Fromm]

And just for the sake of trivia, I'm not aware of a 6×8cm roll film holder... ;)I wonder what the actual size of the Fuji GX680's nominal 6x8 frame might be. Haven't checked, doubt it would fit a 2x3 Graflok.

Cheers,

Dan

[Nick_3536]

Mamiya made a 6x8 RB back. Would that fit? My brain wants to say RB are 2x3 Grafloks. No?

[Jiri Vasina]

I wonder what the actual size of the Fuji GX680's nominal 6x8 frame might be. Haven't checked, doubt it would fit a 2x3 Graflok.

Cheers,

Dan

Yes Dan, I know of the Fuji GX680, but it's not supposed to work with other LF cameras. The only limits on adaptation are your skills, so it might be done. But I have not yet seen a roll film back made for 6x8cm size and intended for use on Graflok back cameras. And I have looked, because this format has the best proportions to me...

The same is true for the Mamyia 6x8 magazine. I think it would be easier to adapt this one - if my memory serves well, I have seen adapters to fit Mamyia film magazine to LF cameras... (most probably with international 4x5" backs) ??

[Dan Fromm]

Jiri, I'm sure you know that depending on the make, nominal 6x9 backs are 56-57 x 78-84. These sizes, even the extremes, round to 60x80. When you say 6x8, what actual, not nominal, dimensions do you mean?

Cheers,

Dan

[Nick_3536]

IIRC The Shen Hao Mamiya back converts it to a 2x3.

What I remember of the history is Mamiya bought Singer in the early 1970s. That got them the Graflex patents.

[Vlad Soare]

Mamiya RB backs are Graflok backs. They will work with any LF camera accepting Graflok backs. They work perfectly with my Ebony 23S, for instance.
The image size of a Mamiya RB 6x7 back is 56x69mm.
The image size of a Mamiya RB 6x8 back is 56x74mm. Closer to 6x7 than to 6x8, if you ask me. :)

[Pete_6109]

I have a 2x3 mini speedgraphic that was manufactured pre-Graflok. Mine has a "Graflex" back. The E. Suydam Company made 120 roll film holders for this type of back and I found one on that popular auction site. In order to focus the image I converted an old Graphic film pack adapter to use as a ground glass back. I measured everything and the ground glass appears to be in the correct film plane. After I focus the image I remove the film pack adapter and attach the roll film holder. It works out very nicely. The film pack cover works like a built in ground glass protector.
I shot some Velvia last weekend to test it. I'll know shortly if everything is in focus or not. Here's some pics of my setup.
http://www.ramaglia.com/minispeed1.jpg
http://www.ramaglia.com/minispeed3.jpg
http://www.ramaglia.com/minispeed2.jpg
http://www.ramaglia.com/minispeed4.jpg

[lomomagix]

I have a 2x3 mini speedgraphic that was manufactured pre-Graflok. Mine has a "Graflex" back. The E. Suydam Company made 120 roll film holders for this type of back and I found one on that popular auction site. In order to focus the image I converted an old Graphic film pack adapter to use as a ground glass back. I measured everything and the ground glass appears to be in the correct film plane. After I focus the image I remove the film pack adapter and attach the roll film holder. It works out very nicely. The film pack cover works like a built in ground glass protector.

Hi Pete! When you say you "converted an old Graphic film back adapter to use as a ground glass," what exactly did you do? Did it require some mechanical or machining procedure?

[Pete_6109]

Hi Pete! When you say you "converted an old Graphic film back adapter to use as a ground glass," what exactly did you do? Did it require some mechanical or machining procedure?

Hi lomomagix,
All I had to do is remove the darkslide and then I cut a ground glass that would fit inside the film pack adapter where the sheet of film would normally have gone. I used some black duct tape to hold the ground glass in place. When I measured the distance from the ground glass to the outside of the film pack it matched the distance on my roll film holder from the film plane to the outside of the holder, so it appears that my focus should be ok. As soon as I get my film back from the developer I'll know if it worked or not.

[Dan Fromm]

If you want to get it exactly right, put the piece of GG in an empty film pack or shim it back from the film pack adapter by the thickness of the front edge of the film pack. In an FPA, the film isn't up against the back of the FPA's front, it is in the pack.

[Pete_6109]

If you want to get it exactly right, put the piece of GG in an empty film pack or shim it back from the film pack adapter by the thickness of the front edge of the film pack. In an FPA, the film isn't up against the back of the FPA's front, it is in the pack.

Dan,
You are exactly right, I forgot about the thickness of the film pack itself. I'll look for one so I can measure the thickness of the front edge of it.

[lomomagix]

Hi lomomagix,
All I had to do is remove the darkslide and then I cut a ground glass that would fit inside the film pack adapter where the sheet of film would normally have gone. I used some black duct tape to hold the ground glass in place. When I measured the distance from the ground glass to the outside of the film pack it matched the distance on my roll film holder from the film plane to the outside of the holder, so it appears that my focus should be ok. As soon as I get my film back from the developer I'll know if it worked or not.
Great! Please keep us posted, this is very interesting to me. And please tell me where pieces of ground glass are available for purchase (and any specs, such as proper thickness?). Thanks!

[Dan Fromm]

lm, look for ground glass on eBay. You'll have to measure a film pack adapter to find out how much room is available for the GG.

Thickness doesn't matter, the ground side faces the lens, not the film (and photographer trying to focus on it).

[Toyon]

A CombiPlan can be adjusted to handle those sheet film sizes. Easy as pie.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/23845-REG/HP_Combi_Plan_459809_HP_Combi_4_x.html


By the way, I have some 3.25x4.25 Kodak film for sale.