Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

[AutumnJazz]

Please excuse me if this is bad etiquette, as I posted on APUG a while ago asking a similar question, but I now have a more refined idea of what I want in a large format camera.

Basically, I want a 4x5" field camera for landscapes, portraits, macro, maybe cityscapes, and similar stuff. I have a 35mm camera that I will keep for things like action and street photography, so this field camera will be for "slower" field and studio use. I had been shown the path of the Zone VI, and I was looking into getting the last bail-back model camera that was made before Zone VI was bought out by Calumet. I was reading about it, and comments about its excessive weight, drawn-out set-up/take-down process, and unprotected ground glass when closed turned me off of it. Is there a light 4x5 field camera with full movements, a generous amount of bellows (possibly replaceable/interchangeable), and a quick, simple set-up/take down process? Are the issues with the Zone VI overblown? I just don't want to spend more time screwing knobs than taking pictures. That is to say, I want a camera that I can set up and pack away quickly.

What about lenses? Right now, I'd like a Schneider 110/5.6 and a 210/5.6. Are there other lenses I should be considering for what I want to do?

I would say that overall my budget for camera, lenses, film holders, etc. is $2,000, but I'm a student so the less that I can spend on the camera means the more I can spend on film, and in the future, a scanner. I won't factor in things like light meters into that budget.

So, what is right for me? What else should I look into or consider?

Thank you for your time,
Jazz

I should also mention that I want a well built camera that may last forever. I don't want something that will start to fall apart in a few years, I want a tank.

[Ole Tjugen]

... Basically, I want a 4x5" field camera for landscapes, portraits, macro, maybe cityscapes, and similar stuff.
That's a lot of "stuff". Not many cameras that shine at all, especially with a tight budget.

... Is there a light 4x5 field camera with full movements, a generous amount of bellows (possibly replaceable/interchangeable), and a quick, simple set-up/take down process?
Yes, there are two: Carbon Infinity and Gandolfi Variant. The first is out of your price range and extremely rare (only 80 ever made), the other is cheaper, still in production, and frequently available. Having tried both side by side I believe the only camera better and more versatile than the Variant is the Carbon Infinity.



What about lenses? Right now, I'd like a Schneider 110/5.6 and a 210/5.6. Are there other lenses I should be considering for what I want to do?
110/5.6 - is that the Super Symmar XL? If so, forget that. It would eat too much of your budget, and would be overkill for 99% of everything. A 90/8 Super Angulon - or a newer brighter one - is a great wide angle with plenty of coverage. Or even a 120/6.8 "plain" Angulon.
Just about any 210mm lens will have plenty of coverage, and the differences in practical resolution are minimal. Anything will do - and I use Angulon, Symmar, Xenar (4.5 and 6.1), Tessar, Fujinon, G-Claron and a few others in this focal length...


I would say that overall my budget for camera, lenses, film holders, etc. is $2,000

See above under lenses.

I should also mention that I want a well built camera that may last forever. I don't want something that will start to fall apart in a few years, I want a tank.
We're back to the two candidates again.

[jnantz]

maybe you should get a "starter camera" at first,
so you can get used to shooting with a large camera,
and seeing what you need that your first camera might not have ...
that way you can see what works and doesn't work for you ..
then sell your first camera ( or put it in "the shrine" ) and get another one that
might suit your needs better. the lenses and film holders and everything else can
be used with whatever you might get now or down the road ...

[John Kasaian]

Jazz,

Here's one idea: If you are a student, take a class where you can use a view camera.

You don't know what you really want :) And you won't know until you learn what it is that you really want. The only way to do that is to use a view camera (any working view camera) and learn from it.
If you can't borrow a camera from school, then get something cheap--they hold their value---heck they even appreciate in value--and save your money for a lens and film. You can take your lens with you and use it on your next camera, and eventually that film you bought will yield negatives which will please you mightily.
The important thing is to go out and take pictures.

Dont waste you time nit picking---it is time better spent photographing.

[Ron Marshall]

For a solid camera consider the Wista SP.

There are many good values now in older lenses. Consider a progression of focal lengths such as 90-135-210 or 90-150-240.

Check out used prices at KEH:

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductList.aspx?Mode=&item=0&ActivateTOC2=&ID=58&BC=LF&BCC=7&CC=6&CCC=2&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=

[AutumnJazz]

I can't take a class where I can use a view camera, although I have used one before. Movement wise, I want to be able to selectively focus, get rid of converging verticals for architectural shots, and so on.

I shoot a lot with my Nikon F100, and I love it.

That reminds me, I really need to get some darkroom equipment so that I can start processing my own film. I love chemistry, so it shouldn't be too hard.

I'd really rather not get a starter camera...I'm that kind my snobby person that just has to have the best, you know? A typical American consumer, except I don't define the best by what ads tell me, I try to find the best. Or maybe I'm just an obsessive-compulsive procrastinator.

Thanks for all of the advice so far. I suppose I may start looking on craigslist for a beater 4x5...

Ole, I was looking at the 120/5.6 actually, I misspoke. 120mm (http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDetail.aspx?groupsku=LF060090345630&brandcategoryname=Large%20Format&Mode=searchproducts&item=0&ActivateTOC2=false&ID=&BC=LF&BCC=7&CC=6&CCC=2&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=&KW=120) 210mm (http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDetail.aspx?groupsku=LF06009034698N&brandcategoryname=Large%20Format&Mode=searchproducts&item=0&ActivateTOC2=false&ID=&BC=LF&BCC=7&CC=6&CCC=2&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=&KW=210%20symmar)

[AutumnJazz]

Well, it seems as if the forums decided to eat my reply, so I have to type it again.


That's a lot of "stuff". Not many cameras that shine at all, especially with a tight budget.

Yes, there are two: Carbon Infinity and Gandolfi Variant. The first is out of your price range and extremely rare (only 80 ever made), the other is cheaper, still in production, and frequently available. Having tried both side by side I believe the only camera better and more versatile than the Variant is the Carbon Infinity.



110/5.6 - is that the Super Symmar XL? If so, forget that. It would eat too much of your budget, and would be overkill for 99% of everything. A 90/8 Super Angulon - or a newer brighter one - is a great wide angle with plenty of coverage. Or even a 120/6.8 "plain" Angulon.
Just about any 210mm lens will have plenty of coverage, and the differences in practical resolution are minimal. Anything will do - and I use Angulon, Symmar, Xenar (4.5 and 6.1), Tessar, Fujinon, G-Claron and a few others in this focal length...



See above under lenses.

We're back to the two candidates again.

Wow, I had never really looked into the varient before...it looks amazing. I had seen the Carbon Infinity quite a while ago, and I must say that would be my dream camera, but I don't exactly have the $10-20k laying around to get one, lol. (Please excuse my use of lol, I don't mean to use chatspeak but I just can't think of a more fitting way to describe how I feel about such a statement. That is, I do not think I would ever spend that kind of money on a camera, even if I had it...even though the Carbon Infinity looks utterly beautiful.) I suppose I should get an L3W, then? Do used L3Ws ever pop up, and if so, where?


maybe you should get a "starter camera" at first,
so you can get used to shooting with a large camera,
and seeing what you need that your first camera might not have ...
that way you can see what works and doesn't work for you ..
then sell your first camera ( or put it in "the shrine" ) and get another one that
might suit your needs better. the lenses and film holders and everything else can
be used with whatever you might get now or down the road ...

I might get a cheap beater camera just to practice with, but I doubt it. I have that American consumer mentality where I have to have to best of everything, but instead of relying on advertisements to tell me what the best is, I try to find it for myself. I am also somewhat of an obsessive-compulsive self-doubting perfectionist, which means it is hard for me to do something if I don't feel I can do it right, or rather, perfectly. I know how irrational that is, and I'm trying to get past it, but human minds are stubborn and complicated. :\


Jazz,

Here's one idea: If you are a student, take a class where you can use a view camera.

You don't know what you really want :) And you won't know until you learn what it is that you really want. The only way to do that is to use a view camera (any working view camera) and learn from it.
If you can't borrow a camera from school, then get something cheap--they hold their value---heck they even appreciate in value--and save your money for a lens and film. You can take your lens with you and use it on your next camera, and eventually that film you bought will yield negatives which will please you mightily.
The important thing is to go out and take pictures.

Dont waste you time nit picking---it is time better spent photographing.

There are no classes at my high school that offers view camera usage, the only thing that comes close is a class that teaches the basics of 35mm with some strange K-mount cameras. Ie. it teaches the basics of photography that I already know. And, I do try to photograph as much as I can...I will always have my Nikon F100 with me unless I am very tired or I'm afraid it will get damaged or stolen.


For a solid camera consider the Wista SP.

There are many good values now in older lenses. Consider a progression of focal lengths such as 90-135-210 or 90-150-240.

Check out used prices at KEH:

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductList.aspx?Mode=&item=0&ActivateTOC2=&ID=58&BC=LF&BCC=7&CC=6&CCC=2&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=

I'm not quite sure about the Wista, but I will look into it.

Again, I thank you all for the time you have taken to help me, and the advice you have offered me.

I've been reminded that I need to get some darkroom equipment. If only water-temp regulating faucets weren't so much, I would get off my butt and get some stainless steel reels and tanks. Then again, I'm just making excuses for myself.

To be quite honest, I am trying to save up $3,000 total before I get this camera, so I have a surplus of money to spend on odds and ends, like light meters, transportation solutions (backpack or old shoulder bag with Domke inserts, most likely), a new pan and tilt tripod head (only have a small ball head for my F100), etc. I will probably cut into that in the end, though...

[Frank Petronio]

Buy a camera outfit from someone on the Forum here or at APUG and you'll have a 98% chance of getting a good deal and an honest, descriptive seller. Look for someone with alot of prior posts and who participates, and they will be honor bound to be straight with you. Beats eBay, although there are some good reliable sellers there too.

You can also ask questions here, like, "is this a good deal?"

Personally, YMMV, I'd get an inexpensive but fully featured monorail with a late 1980s-1990s era 210/5.6 lens from any of the major manufacturers. Some will question getting a monorail, but until you are able to use movements, you won't learn or know what movements you want to use. If you do mostly portraits, you may find that you use minimal movements, so a folding camera like a Crown Graphic (very inexpensive) or a Graflex SLR (great for portraits but not much else) may suffice. If on the other hand you gravitate towards using extreme movements -- studio work, architecture -- then no folding camera (Linhof Technika, Wista wood or metal, Toyo Field are the come ones) will be as flexible as a good monorail.

Monorails are also cheap these days since many of the older hobby photographers aren't strong enough to lift them ;-0

Something like a Sinar F2, Linhof Karden S, Toyo G, Arca Swiss Discovery -- those would be great to start with and they sell for about $5-700. A nice 210 would be $300 and you can get a loupe (get a cheap one -- >$20), ten holders ($100), and a changing tent ($175 for a nice Harrison Pup Tent). A Rubbermaid ice chest makes a great monorail storage case. Look for a complete outfit from someone.

Your main concern with any used camera is the bellows, ask to see some close up photos or buy from someone trusted. Search here for how to tell if your bellows has pinholes. They can be replaced but you don't need that hassle early on.

Use the leftover $ for film and shoot a lot of it.

You can always sell this stuff for about what you paid for it, so later on you can decide whether you want a light, quaint little wooden camera or a heavy duty beast... but it is pretty easy to swap gear around thanks to the internet.

[Brian Ellis]

There are several cameras that will suit your needs I think. The Zone VI actually would do fine though I've never used one so I can't speak to how easy it is to set up and take down. "Unprotected ground glass" is no big deal, few LF cameras come with a ground glass protector but you can buy a generic one for about $15 from Calumet or several other sources (I like the Canham plexiglass protector that Badger and other places sell for about $30).

But if you want light weight (to me, that's 6 lbs and under), movements adequate to do the things you want to do though not necessarily every possible movement, reasonably long bellows (to me, that's 15" or thereabouts), and easy to set up and take down, you have Linhof Technikas (the IVs and Vs are within your budget, weigh about 6 lbs, 15" bellows, the easiest to set up and take down of any LF camera I've owned), Chamonix ($800 MOL, full movements, 15" bellows, weigh about 4 lbs), Tachihara ($600 MOL, you'd need a "top hat" extender to get the bellows past 13"), and Shen Hao ($600 MOL, probably would also need a "top hat" to get the elllows past 12 " though Shen Haos can go to 14" if you're willing to fiddle a little with the front tilts). There are others such as Ebony and Canham that would fill the bill but they're out of your budget, there are probably others I'm not thinking of offhand.

Tachiharas don't have front or rear shift or rear rise and fall so they probably don't have what you may be thinking of as "full" movements but the movements they have - front tilt, swing, rise, and fall and rear tilt and swing are more than adequate for most subjects. And it's very unlikely that any camera you buy today no matter what the price is going to be one you'll keep for a lifetime unless you're 80 or so.

[jnantz]

I might get a cheap beater camera just to practice with, but I doubt it. I have that American consumer mentality where I have to have to best of everything, but instead of relying on advertisements to tell me what the best is, I try to find it for myself. I am also somewhat of an obsessive-compulsive self-doubting perfectionist, which means it is hard for me to do something if I don't feel I can do it right, or rather, perfectly. I know how irrational that is, and I'm trying to get past it, but human minds are stubborn and complicated. :\


hmmm

i didn't really say "beater camera", i said "starter camera". ...
getting "the best", to me at least, is a total waste of time and energy.
you will be more timid to use it, because if it breaks, or gets damaged or whatever
( you are not used to using a 4x5 camera so you will probably make mistakes )
you will then have to spend a small fortune getting it repaired and finding somene to repair it &C.
landscapes, portraits and macro work do not require a lot of movements
( or any at all ) maybe something like a toyo technical view camera might be worth looking into.
it has long bellows, the back pops out and offers some movements for
architectural photography, and it is built rugged.

have fun!
john

[AutumnJazz]

Buy a camera outfit from someone on the Forum here or at APUG and you'll have a 98% chance of getting a good deal and an honest, descriptive seller. Look for someone with alot of prior posts and who participates, and they will be honor bound to be straight with you. Beats eBay, although there are some good reliable sellers there too.

You can also ask questions here, like, "is this a good deal?"

Personally, YMMV, I'd get an inexpensive but fully featured monorail with a late 1980s-1990s era 210/5.6 lens from any of the major manufacturers. Some will question getting a monorail, but until you are able to use movements, you won't learn or know what movements you want to use. If you do mostly portraits, you may find that you use minimal movements, so a folding camera like a Crown Graphic (very inexpensive) or a Graflex SLR (great for portraits but not much else) may suffice. If on the other hand you gravitate towards using extreme movements -- studio work, architecture -- then no folding camera (Linhof Technika, Wista wood or metal, Toyo Field are the come ones) will be as flexible as a good monorail.

Monorails are also cheap these days since many of the older hobby photographers aren't strong enough to lift them ;-0

Something like a Sinar F2, Linhof Karden S, Toyo G, Arca Swiss Discovery -- those would be great to start with and they sell for about $5-700. A nice 210 would be $300 and you can get a loupe (get a cheap one -- >$20), ten holders ($100), and a changing tent ($175 for a nice Harrison Pup Tent). A Rubbermaid ice chest makes a great monorail storage case. Look for a complete outfit from someone.

Your main concern with any used camera is the bellows, ask to see some close up photos or buy from someone trusted. Search here for how to tell if your bellows has pinholes. They can be replaced but you don't need that hassle early on.

Use the leftover $ for film and shoot a lot of it.

You can always sell this stuff for about what you paid for it, so later on you can decide whether you want a light, quaint little wooden camera or a heavy duty beast... but it is pretty easy to swap gear around thanks to the internet.

Thank you. I haven't been around here long enough to stalk the For Sale section, but I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. :)


There are several cameras that will suit your needs I think. The Zone VI actually would do fine though I've never used one so I can't speak to how easy it is to set up and take down. "Unprotected ground glass" is no big deal, few LF cameras come with a ground glass protector but you can buy a generic one for about $15 from Calumet or several other sources (I like the Canham plexiglass protector that Badger and other places sell for about $30).

But if you want light weight (to me, that's 6 lbs and under), movements adequate to do the things you want to do though not necessarily every possible movement, reasonably long bellows (to me, that's 15" or thereabouts), and easy to set up and take down, you have Linhof Technikas (the IVs and Vs are within your budget, weigh about 6 lbs, 15" bellows, the easiest to set up and take down of any LF camera I've owned), Chamonix ($800 MOL, full movements, 15" bellows, weigh about 4 lbs), Tachihara ($600 MOL, you'd need a "top hat" extender to get the bellows past 13"), and Shen Hao ($600 MOL, probably would also need a "top hat" to get the elllows past 12 " though Shen Haos can go to 14" if you're willing to fiddle a little with the front tilts). There are others such as Ebony and Canham that would fill the bill but they're out of your budget, there are probably others I'm not thinking of offhand.

Tachiharas don't have front or rear shift or rear rise and fall so they probably don't have what you may be thinking of as "full" movements but the movements they have - front tilt, swing, rise, and fall and rear tilt and swing are more than adequate for most subjects. And it's very unlikely that any camera you buy today no matter what the price is going to be one you'll keep for a lifetime unless you're 80 or so.

Maybe not a lifetime, but I certainly want something well made and durable. Thank you for the additional suggestions. I guess a century of development leaves me a lot of options. :)


hmmm

i didn't really say "beater camera", i said "starter camera". ...
getting "the best", to me at least, is a total waste of time and energy.
you will be more timid to use it, because if it breaks, or gets damaged or whatever
( you are not used to using a 4x5 camera so you will probably make mistakes )
you will then have to spend a small fortune getting it repaired and finding somene to repair it &C.
landscapes, portraits and macro work do not require a lot of movements
( or any at all ) maybe something like a toyo technical view camera might be worth looking into.
it has long bellows, the back pops out and offers some movements for
architectural photography, and it is built rugged.

have fun!
john

Beater was bad word choice on my part. I know that there is no true best camera, and to quibble about quality and things that will never impact me is time wasted. I just want a good camera that I will be able to use to take pictures with for a long time.

[John Kasaian]

I might get a cheap beater camera just to practice with, but I doubt it. I have that American consumer mentality where I have to have to best of everything, but instead of relying on advertisements to tell me what the best is, I try to find it for myself. I am also somewhat of an obsessive-compulsive self-doubting perfectionist, which means it is hard for me to do something if I don't feel I can do it right, or rather, perfectly. I know how irrational that is, and I'm trying to get past it, but human minds are stubborn and complicated. :\



There are no classes at my high school that offers view camera usage, the only thing that comes close is a class that teaches the basics of 35mm with some strange K-mount cameras. Ie. it teaches the basics of photography that I already know. And, I do try to photograph as much as I can...I will always have my Nikon F100 with me unless I am very tired or I'm afraid it will get damaged or stolen.



First: Loose that American consumer mentality. You're in uncharted waters here. When in Turkey, do as the Turkeys :D Besides, the stereotypical american consumer mentality eventually leads to a bad end (as we are all learning.) Fancy de luxe gear is all well and good, but you're the one making the photograph and all the teutonic uber-engineering in the world isn't going to help you see with your heart and soul and put what you see on a sheet of film.

Second: A 35mm is not a view camera with a glandular disorder! While film behaves the same, the camera and the photographer cannot. I'm not trying to mystify view cameras-- (I'm not, honest) but the whole experience is very different. Have you read Steve Simmons Using The View Camera?

If there is a local camera club pay them a visit (or if there is a well stocked pro level photography store around) and tell 'em you want to see a view camera up close. Someone is bound to have one, A call to a local newpaper or police forensic photographer will likely lead to somebody who knows someone who still has a Speed Graphic or Linhof in the closet.

Don't be surprised if you learn more about cameras in one afternoon with one of these old time photographers than you've been able to pick up over the course of your lifetime with a 35mm:cool:

You'll figure it out. No rocket science here. As john nanian suggests, a starter camera is way to go (unless of course you are extremely wealthy and bent on creating a small fortune out of a larger one!)

As John Sexton said the other evening: "Have fun!"

[AutumnJazz]

I guess I forgot to mention that I have actually used a view camera before, but it was quite a while ago. I liked it.

The local camera clubs are all digital now...

Thanks for the advice. :)

[John Kasaian]

I guess I forgot to mention that I have actually used a view camera before, but it was quite a while ago. I liked it.

The local camera clubs are all digital now...

Thanks for the advice. :)

How do you feel about the work of Roman Loranc, John Sexton, and O.Winston Link?

[AutumnJazz]

I haven't seen their work before...but Loranc's looks...amazing. The lighting in his pictures just makes them so striking and powerful...I love them.

How does he do that? Is it just his compositional skills? I just utterly love his style.

I can't seem to find anywhere, online that is, to see Sexton's work. :(

Link's night photography looks very, very interesting.

[John Kasaian]

All these guys used Linhof Technikas. Loranc and Sexton use mainly 210mm lenses. They could have just as easily used $100 Calumet monorails (I suspect maybe O. Winston Link did some handheld work though) The talent comes from the photographer. Using gear you enjoy working with will help get you through the drudgery (this I learned from John Sexton and Edward Weston wrote about this in his Day Books as well)
The trouble is, in order to find what you'll enjoy working with requires time, experience and commitment.

It is kind of like dating. You can rest assured that you won't really "know" a girl until you've shared food poisoning from bad take out chinese.

It is the same way with view cameras IMHO

[AutumnJazz]

Oh believe me, I know that the camera doesn't matter. Why do you think I'm looking into a view camera and not a D700 or 5D? I want the movements and extra control they afford me. The larger negative is just a plus. :)

[Ken Lee]

Since you mentioned macro work, remember that bellows extension can be a limiting factor. To make a photo at 1:1 ratio, you need bellow draw equal to 2x the focal length of a lens - more if you want to get closer still.

So with a "normal" lens like 150mm on a 4x5 camera, you will need at least 300mm of bellows draw. If you want to use a 210 lens, you will need 420 or more - and that precludes most field cameras.

Field cameras which offer long bellows draw, include the Ebony (http://www.ebonycamera.com/cam.html), the Canham DLC45 (http://www.canhamcameras.com/allmetalf.html), and the Wisner (http://www.wisner.com/) Technical Field. Ebony and Canham cameras rarely appear on the used market. Wisners are a bit more easy to find, but not commonplace. There's a reason for all of that.

I got my used Wisner Technical Field for $ 600, which is less than the price of new field cameras made in China, and which offer less features. Wisner may now be out of business (a controversial question), but my Wisner camera is not. My used Sinar P cost the same $ 600, with case and extension rail. Since I rarely trek with the camera, and it converts to 5x7 in a moment, it gets most of the use, indoors and out.

While Schnieder lenses are as good as they get, you might want to Google the word "Schneideritis (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=schneideritis&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)". Nuff said on that. There are other lenses of equivalent quality and coverage, but which are smaller, lighter, and more affordable. See here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/tech.html) for some, with accompanying sample images.

[Louie Powell]

You've asked a lot of question! Here are a few answers:

- "I had been shown the path of the Zone VI, and I was looking into getting the last bail-back model camera that was made before Zone VI was bought out by Calumet. I was reading about it, and comments about its excessive weight, drawn-out set-up/take-down process, and unprotected ground glass when closed turned me off of it"

Don't believe everything you read. Better yet, try the camera and make your own decision. The Zone VI is not excessively heavy. The fact is that when you put the camera in a bag along with a couple of lenses and half a dozen holders, the difference in weight between the original Zone VI and the newer lightweight Zone VI is nothing.

The setup/takedown process for the Zone VI is neither difficult nor time consuming. Regardless of which camera you choose, you will either learn how to manipulate it, or you will become frustrated and sell it.

I'm not aware of any field camera that has inherent ground glass protection. GG protectors are cheap, and if you are clever and handy you can make your own.

Finally, the last Zone VI model (the Lightweight) was introduced by Calumet and it had a bail back just like the last model that Picker made.

- "That is to say, I want a camera that I can set up and pack away quickly."

OK - two responses to that one. First, practice, practice, practice. Tillman Crane includes a "five minute picture" exercise in his LF workshops to teach students how to quickly manipulate their cameras.

Second - why? For me, the whole point of LF is to slow down to really study the image and approach the making of an image in a careful and thoughtful way. If you want fast, stick with 35mm or go digital.

- "Are there other lenses I should be considering for what I want to do?"

I suggest starting with a 210mm. Whether it's Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji is not especially important. I chose Caltar - 'Rodenstock in drag'. After you have worked with it for a while, you will know what your next lens should. be. And remember that you don't want to be a lens collector - LF lenses are heavy and expensive. Most people get by with one or two lenses and a pair of shoes in which to walk closer to the subject in order to change the framing.

- "I would say that overall my budget for camera, lenses, film holders, etc. is $2,000"

That's easily oable, especially with used equipment. And there's a lot of good used stuff out there.

- "I don't want something that will start to fall apart in a few years, I want a tank."

Two comments on this one. First, don't drop your camera. Seriously, with LF, that's about the worst thing that can happen, and even then most cameras are repairable. Richard Ritter even has a video on making emergency repairs in the field - that he made by wrecking a Zone VI and then patching it back together with stuff that he bought in WalMart. Including an ad-hoc ground glass that he made from a cheap plastic picture frame.

Second, the most rugged camera you can buy today is probably an old Crown Graphic. That might not be a bad starting point if you are uncertain about your level of commitment to LF.

[Ole Tjugen]

The only thing "schneideritis" affects is the retail value, which IMO is a good thing for someone on a budget. "Rodenstockitis" is worse - that's delamination of cemented groups...

BTW, I have compared a Zone VI to a Gandolfi and a Linhof Color too. Compared to those two, it's best used as kindling, ;)

I bought my Gandolfi Variant (I, upgraded) a couple of months ago for EUR 690, including bag bellows and a few extra lens boards. After the recent flurry of exchange rate changes, I figure that $800 should cover it.

PM for full details. ;)

[Ken Lee]

Thanks Ole for the correction. On further reading, I see that "schneideritis" is, at worst, a cosmetic condition. Oops !

By the way, in your "avatar" photo, you are holding a rather large camera in your hand. Do you have large hands ? Do you play the piano ? :)

[AutumnJazz]

Since you mentioned macro work, remember that bellows extension can be a limiting factor. To make a photo at 1:1 ratio, you need bellow draw equal to 2x the focal length of a lens - more if you want to get closer still.

So with a "normal" lens like 150mm on a 4x5 camera, you will need at least 300mm of bellows draw. If you want to use a 210 lens, you will need 420 or more - and that precludes most field cameras.

Field cameras which offer long bellows draw, include the Ebony (http://www.ebonycamera.com/cam.html), the Canham DLC45 (http://www.canhamcameras.com/allmetalf.html), and the Wisner (http://www.wisner.com/) Technical Field. Ebony and Canham cameras rarely appear on the used market. Wisners are a bit more easy to find, but not commonplace. There's a reason for all of that.

I got my used Wisner Technical Field for $ 600, which is less than the price of new field cameras made in China, and which offer less features. Wisner may now be out of business (a controversial question), but my Wisner camera is not. My used Sinar P cost the same $ 600, with case and extension rail. Since I rarely trek with the camera, and it converts to 5x7 in a moment, it gets most of the use, indoors and out.

While Schnieder lenses are as good as they get, you might want to Google the word "Schneideritis (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=schneideritis&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)". Nuff said on that. There are other lenses of equivalent quality and coverage, but which are smaller, lighter, and more affordable. See here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/tech.html) for some, with accompanying sample images.

What is the draw on the Varient? The closest info I can find on that is that the maximum lens as 480mm.

I have no desire to do 5x7 (it costs just as much to get 8x10 processed, no other reason really).

Also, the Canham looks nice, if not insanely expensive.


The only thing "schneideritis" affects is the retail value, which IMO is a good thing for someone on a budget. "Rodenstockitis" is worse - that's delamination of cemented groups...

BTW, I have compared a Zone VI to a Gandolfi and a Linhof Color too. Compared to those two, it's best used as kindling, ;)

I bought my Gandolfi Variant (I, upgraded) a couple of months ago for EUR 690, including bag bellows and a few extra lens boards. After the recent flurry of exchange rate changes, I figure that $800 should cover it.

PM for full details. ;)

Thanks, I will PM you. :)


You've asked a lot of question! Here are a few answers:

- "I had been shown the path of the Zone VI, and I was looking into getting the last bail-back model camera that was made before Zone VI was bought out by Calumet. I was reading about it, and comments about its excessive weight, drawn-out set-up/take-down process, and unprotected ground glass when closed turned me off of it"

Don't believe everything you read. Better yet, try the camera and make your own decision. The Zone VI is not excessively heavy. The fact is that when you put the camera in a bag along with a couple of lenses and half a dozen holders, the difference in weight between the original Zone VI and the newer lightweight Zone VI is nothing.

The setup/takedown process for the Zone VI is neither difficult nor time consuming. Regardless of which camera you choose, you will either learn how to manipulate it, or you will become frustrated and sell it.

I'm not aware of any field camera that has inherent ground glass protection. GG protectors are cheap, and if you are clever and handy you can make your own.

Finally, the last Zone VI model (the Lightweight) was introduced by Calumet and it had a bail back just like the last model that Picker made.

- "That is to say, I want a camera that I can set up and pack away quickly."

OK - two responses to that one. First, practice, practice, practice. Tillman Crane includes a "five minute picture" exercise in his LF workshops to teach students how to quickly manipulate their cameras.

Second - why? For me, the whole point of LF is to slow down to really study the image and approach the making of an image in a careful and thoughtful way. If you want fast, stick with 35mm or go digital.

- "Are there other lenses I should be considering for what I want to do?"

I suggest starting with a 210mm. Whether it's Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji is not especially important. I chose Caltar - 'Rodenstock in drag'. After you have worked with it for a while, you will know what your next lens should. be. And remember that you don't want to be a lens collector - LF lenses are heavy and expensive. Most people get by with one or two lenses and a pair of shoes in which to walk closer to the subject in order to change the framing.

- "I would say that overall my budget for camera, lenses, film holders, etc. is $2,000"

That's easily oable, especially with used equipment. And there's a lot of good used stuff out there.

- "I don't want something that will start to fall apart in a few years, I want a tank."

Two comments on this one. First, don't drop your camera. Seriously, with LF, that's about the worst thing that can happen, and even then most cameras are repairable. Richard Ritter even has a video on making emergency repairs in the field - that he made by wrecking a Zone VI and then patching it back together with stuff that he bought in WalMart. Including an ad-hoc ground glass that he made from a cheap plastic picture frame.

Second, the most rugged camera you can buy today is probably an old Crown Graphic. That might not be a bad starting point if you are uncertain about your level of commitment to LF.

Thanks. I don't drop my cameras, I take very good care of them. I take good care of everything I own. I'm looking to protect for the worst case scenario. :)

I keep being told that the weight of the Zone VI is negligible, I just wanted reassurance to be quite honest.

Also, I just don't want to spend my time setting up and tearing down my camera instead of moving on to find where I want to take my pictures.

[John Kasaian]

I keep being told that the weight of the Zone VI is negligible, I just wanted reassurance to be quite honest.

Also, I just don't want to spend my time setting up and tearing down my camera instead of moving on to find where I want to take my pictures.

FWIW I can't think of a wooden clamshell camera that is a true 4x5 (and not a 5x7 with a 4x5 back) that I'd call "heavy." Portability is one of the main reasons these why things were built!

If you're overly concerned about set up and take down (again it isn't really a problem with any well designed field camera you'll commonly come across---these things were meant to operate in the "field" meaning a 19th century field) simply set up, then pick the whole enchhilada, tripod and all up and move it where you want. You can even throw the tripod over you shoulder and hike around with it quite nicely (if there are no low branches hanging over the trail!)

[AutumnJazz]

Are there any field cameras with yaw-free movements? Just curious, really.

John, that is what I do with my SLR now, so I don't know why that didn't cross my mind...lol

[Santo Roman]

Jazz,

I picked up a toyo view 45g about a year on ebay for $150. You really don't need much to start off. I never picked up a lens because I do mostly pinhole work with it but I will soon be getting a new 4x5 field as well so it was good to see someone else with the same questions. I had a graflex crown 5 years ago but sold it on ebay. I've been looking at the Toyo and a few others. I as well shot with the F100 for a number of years so I know how you feel about having a high quality item. Trust me it will feel like a HUGE step down but the control you will have is great. Good luck.

Santo

[Frank Petronio]

The expensive Ebonies have yaw-free movements. Monorails, like the Sinar F and P, as well as some of the later Linhof and Arca models also have yaw-free movements. Sinar really promoted the idea that yaw-free movements are important to photographers. In the real world, the lack of having yaw-free movements will have zero influence on your ability to make good large format pictures. It is almost never a deal-breaker -- simply a nice convenience for a small number of situations and bragging rights.

If you want a nice wooden folding camera get a new Chamonix from China -- search them out on this forum. Under $1000.

If you want a solid metal folding camera get a used Wista or a Linhof Technika. From $800 up.

If you want a bargain that has full movements, get a used monorail from a good manufacturer like Sinar, Linhof, Arca-Swiss, Toyo, etc. $500 will buy you a great camera.

(An older Arca monorail will actually be lighter and more compact that most folding cameras.)

If you only want to spend $300 to see if you like large format, watch for a clean Crown Graphic with lens.

(Google and search out the individual models for detailed info.)

[Ron Marshall]

What Frank said. I have a yaw-free and a non yaw-free camera. I mostly use the non yaw-free.

The best thing to do is get a camera and start shooting. Whatever you end up buying, you will probably find another camera you wish you had bought. You're lucky, there are so many great cameras being made currently, and many others available used at very reasonable prices.

[AutumnJazz]

I've actually tried to find info on the Chamonix in the past, but was unable to. Then again, I didn't look on this forum. How is it different from the Gandolfi Varient? From what I read before a Chinese man who loved to hike in Chamonix wanted a lighter LF camera.

Also, what are the benefits of having a camera like the Canham DLC45 over something like the Gandolfi Varient (durability?)? Cons of such a camera (movements, weight?)?

I'm afraid to even look into monorails because I like to hike and walk around a lot, especially when I'm in the mood to take some pictures. I don't want something that will be awkward and heavy, which might hurt my back or just be an annoyance so I'll end up never using it outside.

Again, I want to thank you all for your advice. Many of you are telling me about what I am sure are great cameras, but you aren't really telling me why they are great cameras or why I should really look into them. Someone else, from APUG actually, got me really wanting a Zone VI, but then Ole introduced me to the Gandolfi above and has really made me want it. I'm sorry if I sound ungrateful, I really am not, but it is hard to find information on LF cameras aside from here and APUG, and I'm just overwhelmed with suggestions of great cameras that I'm sure I would have a blast using, but not much info besides the name of it, what type it is, what it is made out of, etc.

Again I want to thank everyone, please don't think that I don't appreciate everyone's advice. (Personally, I love hearing many different and conflicting solutions...it usually helps eliminate bias vs. just going off of one person's suggestion.)

Right now, I am really leaning to getting a Gandolfi Varient.

[Daniel_Buck]

I have seen Tachihara 4x5s and Wista 4x5s sell used for $450 or so, I think that would be a great way to get into 4x5 shooting, and to continue using as well! Just because some people may label a particular camera as a 'beginner's' camera, or a 'starter' camera, doesn't mean that you can't continue to use it for years and years.

A family member loaned me a Wista Zone VI when I was starting off in the world of large format, and I enjoyed the camera very much! If I were starting out from scratch again, I would not hesitate to pick one of them up. It had a decent amount of movements, was very easy to use, and I liked the fact that I could close it up with the lens still inside the front standard (though I had to reverse the lensboard when closing it). And on top of that, it's a very classic looking (and feeling) camera. May not have as much movements or as much bellows expansion as some other cameras, but in practice that was usually not a problem at all for most types of shooting.

I think you'll do fine with most any of the cameras suggested, they all do about the same thing :-) I think for the most part, any camera will get you 90% of the way there (save maybe for architecture shooting or some other type of shooting that requires big movements and wide lenses), the rest is up to personal preference of features and style. I've tried a few 4x5 cameras, and can't honestly say that I have found one (save for an old heavy monorail camera!) that I did not enjoy shooting with. I did eventually settle on a Chamonix 4x5, but not because I disliked the other 4x5s, but because the Chamonix had the right combination of movements (and price) with the features that I liked, and not many of the features that i didn't need (rear shift or rise, for instance).

[AutumnJazz]

Thank you. I know the Tachihara was also the Zone VI brand camera at one point early in its life. I know I would enjoy using one.

If in the end I can't convince myself to spring for the Gandolfi, I'll probably end up getting the last Zone VI that was made before the Ultralight, which isn't much more than the $450 you cited.

On the note of movements, what applications do rear shift/rise have?

I seriously cannot thank you all enough. This site, like APUG, is filled with such an extreme wealth of information, it is just amazing.

(Why hasn't anyone made an analog or large format wiki yet? It seems like a wiki is the perfect way to display everyone's knowledge on cameras, emulsions, techniques, chemical formulas, scanners, etc.)

[jeroldharter]

...I don't want something that will be awkward and heavy, which might hurt my back or just be an annoyance so I'll end up never using it outside.
...
Right now, I am really leaning to getting a Gandolfi Varient.

I think low weight is a bit overrated. The weight of the camera itself will be a fraction of the total weight. Some dark cloths can weigh a couple of pounds and film holders can weigh more than a camera for example. The number and sizes of lenses you carry can exceed the weight of the camera. Without shelling out hundreds of dollars for carbon fiber, the weight of the tripod and head will weigh more than the camera and be more awkward to carry. I think that the pack makes more difference than the weight of the equipment assuming the usual range of weight of a typical field outfit. Even a light load in a poor pack can be miserable on a long walk.

But for weight and durability it is hard to beat a Canham which has the best bellows for field cameras as far as I know. It is quite long and handles my 300 mm lens with no problems. Also, it is flexible and with some care I can use a 75 mm lens also. The Canham also has a large range of movements. The downside of the Canham is that it is "fiddly" with a lot of knobs. But you can't get flexibility and movements without knobs. I think it takes a learning curve to get used to the Canham but I have found that it makes me more disciplined when setting up the camera.

The Toyo AX is reasonably light, very durable, less bellows draw (300 mm at infinity works though). I can focus a 90 mm but never tried the 75 mm. I don't think the bellows are as flexible as the Canham and movements are not as extensive. The Toyo seems better finished and more precise.

Don't know much about the Gandolfi Variant. I suppose that in itself could be an issue, i.e. I rarely see used parts or even many used cameras for sale. Don't know about customer service either. I can't find a proper website. From what i can tell about the Gandolfi Variant is that the bellows draw is limited so that if you use a longer lens (? longer than what), you have to buy a lens cone which is bulky and adds weight. The Gandolfi Traditional looks better on paper but costs almost $3000. For that money, buy a used Arca F-line.

[Frank Petronio]

The front end of this site is the best equivalent to a LF Wiki yet:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Read up before you buy anything.

Opinions are like a@@holes but I think the Gandolfi is more of a British/Euro camera, there are very few in action in the States, so service/parts might be difficult. Ole loves them but I read another guy complaining... YMMV.

I think the old early 1980s Wista Field in Cherry or the Zone VI that was practically the same thing during that era was the best vintage of the Zone VI type cameras. But I would opt for a newer Wista, as those particular Zone VIs are at least 20 years old and, with no offense to their proponents, those wooden finger-jointed boxes tend to loosen up with age and use.... Also the Wista had subtle revisions and is still being made, so the newer the better.

The Wisner-made Zone VIs are funkier and the really light weight Tachiharas can be, umm, almost too light weight/fragile/flimsy for overly active or fumbling users. A little meat on the bones makes for easier handling...

If you read that "Worst View Camera" thread you'll see one person praising the camera the prior person dissed, you just have to try them and live with them for a while. Don't expect to buy your first and last view camera at the same time.

[AutumnJazz]

I think low weight is a bit overrated. The weight of the camera itself will be a fraction of the total weight. Some dark cloths can weigh a couple of pounds and film holders can weigh more than a camera for example. The number and sizes of lenses you carry can exceed the weight of the camera. Without shelling out hundreds of dollars for carbon fiber, the weight of the tripod and head will weigh more than the camera and be more awkward to carry. I think that the pack makes more difference than the weight of the equipment assuming the usual range of weight of a typical field outfit. Even a light load in a poor pack can be miserable on a long walk.

But for weight and durability it is hard to beat a Canham which has the best bellows for field cameras as far as I know. It is quite long and handles my 300 mm lens with no problems. Also, it is flexible and with some care I can use a 75 mm lens also. The Canham also has a large range of movements. The downside of the Canham is that it is "fiddly" with a lot of knobs. But you can't get flexibility and movements without knobs. I think it takes a learning curve to get used to the Canham but I have found that it makes me more disciplined when setting up the camera.

The Toyo AX is reasonably light, very durable, less bellows draw (300 mm at infinity works though). I can focus a 90 mm but never tried the 75 mm. I don't think the bellows are as flexible as the Canham and movements are not as extensive. The Toyo seems better finished and more precise.

Don't know much about the Gandolfi Variant. I suppose that in itself could be an issue, i.e. I rarely see used parts or even many used cameras for sale. Don't know about customer service either. I can't find a proper website. From what i can tell about the Gandolfi Variant is that the bellows draw is limited so that if you use a longer lens (? longer than what), you have to buy a lens cone which is bulky and adds weight. The Gandolfi Traditional looks better on paper but costs almost $3000. For that money, buy a used Arca F-line.

I don't really care about weight. Well, I do and I don't. I don't want a 10 lbs. camera, but I don't really care if a camera is 4 or 6 lbs. What I meant was monorail cameras. I do not want to get a monorail camera.

Whereas I only plan on getting a 120mm and a 210mm right now, I would like to do macro and in the future I think that I would really love a 75mm...

I'm asking for too much from a folding camera, aren't I?

Oh, I should also mention that I already have a carbon fiber tripod, and I love it.

[Ron Marshall]

You might be interested in this: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

[jeroldharter]

I don't really care about weight. Well, I do and I don't. I don't want a 10 lbs. camera, but I don't really care if a camera is 4 or 6 lbs. What I meant was monorail cameras. I do not want to get a monorail camera.

Whereas I only plan on getting a 120mm and a 210mm right now, I would like to do macro and in the future I think that I would really love a 75mm...

I'm asking for too much from a folding camera, aren't I?

Oh, I should also mention that I already have a carbon fiber tripod, and I love it.

I think you are going down the same path I took (I am just beginning). You want an Arca. It is a monorail but not in the conventional sense because it is modular and lighter than most. My camera weighs just over 7 pounds but has interchangeable bellows, geared rise/shift/tilt. The craftsmanship is outstanding. The price is high but you can get a used, basic F-Line model without geared movements (and lighter) for about $2000. I spent about $3000 on other cameras trying to avoid the obvious (Arca) and then bought one anyway. Especially if you want to do macro and need some precision and bellows extension, check out a used Arca F-Line. You can always add lenses, pick up one at a time, etc. I just bought mine and have not taken a photo yet. But just playing around with it I feel like I have stepped into a different world (and a very expensive world). I did a lot of research on Arca and have not found anyone who regretted buying one (are you out there?).

[AutumnJazz]

I'm loving these conflicting opinions!

They are, however, making me think more, thus making my decision harder.

[Daniel_Buck]

I'm loving these conflicting opinions!

They are, however, making me think more, thus making my decision harder.

it may be possible to think about it to much :) Maybe go on the hunt for the 2 or 3 that you think you like best, and grab which ever one you find the best deal on :) You will probably never find the 'perfect' camera, some have strengths in some areas, but every camera is probably a bit of a compromise in one area or another.

[AutumnJazz]

Right now I really like the Gandolfi, Toho, Arca-Swiss, and Canham DLC45. The Gandolfi Varient seems to have everything I want in a package that is slightly cheaper than the Toho, which is much cheaper than the Arca and Canham. Remember, I have a $2,000 budget for the camera and lenses, possibly stretchable to $2,500, but I would rather leave that for things like film, film holders, a Sekonic L-508, etc.

I just want to know what the freaking bellows draw is on the Gandolfi. :(

Edit: The Gandolfi Varient seems to have 485mm of maximum bellows draw, which should be good for macro.

So, if you were in my shoes, which camera would you choose, and why?

To reiterate what I want:
- Use of 120mm and 210mm lens now for:
-- Macro
-- Landscape
-- Cityscape
-- Portrait
-- Studio crap
-- hiking
-- Etc.

- Ability to use 75mm lens in the future. (Not incredibly important by itself, but would become a deciding factor if necessary.)

- Light enough to hike with.

- Not awkward to carry like with studio monorails.

- Sturdy

- Well built

Etc.

Thanks again!

[Gordon Moat]

Not to sway your opinion more, but if I could own one camera, I think this would be it:

http://precisioncameraworks.com/Media/misura.pdf

http://www.galerie-photo.com/arca-swiss-misura-us.html

http://www.galerie-photo.com/misura_peronne_us.html - showing leather bag version and a nice sequence of images showing set-up.

Personally I like the leather bag version more than the clamshell version, though functionally they work the same. I like the looks and integration of parts. However, for now my Shen-Hao HZX45A-II does the job, and generates profits, so I don't know when (or if) I will ever get a Misura.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[Drew Wiley]

Sorry to chime in so late with my two cents worth, but I consider the Sinar F-series
to be the most neglected field camera of them all. I know that people associate Sinar with studio use, but I backpacked with a Sinar for over twenty years, over just
about every kind of terrain you could think of, and used the same camera in studio,
for architecture, you name it. The Sinar system is unquestionably the most versatile
camera system ever invented. With a 28-inch Horseman bellows, a bag bellows,
and a rail extension of two, I could go from the widest of the wide to exceptionally
long focal lengths with complete ease. The rail could be positioned anywhere over the rail clamp, so the camera would easily balance on a relatively light tripod. Yes,
a Sinar F is a tad heavier and bulkier than an Arca, but components are readily
available, the camera is easy to repair, superbly made, and perhaps best of all to
someone starting up, there is a glut of beautiful kits out there for sale at absurdly
low prices, simply because so many studios and architectural photographers are
switching to medium-format digital monorails (including Sinar). I will admit that when I turned 50, replete with bursitis in the elbows, I treated myself to a folding Ebony 4x5 to complement my Phillips 8X10. But when I'm working with very long lenses, doing critical copy work, or doing architecture, I always turn back to my battered yet beloved old Sinar.

[AutumnJazz]

Gordon, I don't even want to know how much that Arca-Swiss is.

Drew, the Sinars just look WAY too awkward to hike around with for hours...

[John Kasaian]

Jazz,
I'm not proposing that this is the "only" way, but it might be worth considering:

LF photography is, to me anyway, a passion (of sorts) That is to say when I first came to the realization that LF was something I could do the driving force was to get out and do it Pinholes, Anny Speeders, Burke and James, what ever camera I could afford and get my hands on, I did. Eventually I ended up with the kit I have now, which I enjoy working with, but if termites ate her up tonight and I had to start all over I'd probably be schlepping an Ansco, Tachi or Calumet 400 by the end of the week.
Ansel Adams said the negative is the score, the print is the performance (or something like that) so it might also be said that the camera is the saxophone, the photograph is the "jazz."

I was fortunate to see John Sexton lecture at the Fresno Art Museum last week. One thing that blew me completely away was that we are the same age!
Now I don't know if I'll ever get a print as good as Sexton's, but one of the reasons why his work is so powerful is that he's spent a lot of time at it (far, far more than I)

My advice:
Don't waste your time. Get something you can afford now (monorail, field, or press) shoot as often as you can and don't ever look back.
You'll never have this time in your life again and believe me you'll learn to work around any quirkinness a working view camera will throw at you (and they all are quirky in one way or another)---it is part of the adventure!
When you score that grant from Guggenheim you can order that Ebony or Gandolfi---I'm sure they'd be happy to accomodate you :)
Cheers!

[AutumnJazz]

Funny you use that analogy, I play the sax. :)

Believe me, I want to start doing 4x5 as soon as possible. As it stands right now, I don't really have any money that I am willing to spend instead of sock away so I'd much rather save up for a so-called "dream" camera.

As of right now, the Gandolfi is the cheapest camera that I really like. lol

[Daniel_Buck]

Right now I really like the Gandolfi, Toho, Arca-Swiss, and Canham DLC45. The Gandolfi Varient seems to have everything I want in a package that is slightly cheaper than the Toho, which is much cheaper than the Arca and Canham. Remember, I have a $2,000 budget for the camera and lenses, possibly stretchable to $2,500, but I would rather leave that for things like film, film holders, a Sekonic L-508, etc.

I just want to know what the freaking bellows draw is on the Gandolfi. :(

Edit: The Gandolfi Varient seems to have 485mm of maximum bellows draw, which should be good for macro.

So, if you were in my shoes, which camera would you choose, and why?

To reiterate what I want:
- Use of 120mm and 210mm lens now for:
-- Macro
-- Landscape
-- Cityscape
-- Portrait
-- Studio crap
-- hiking
-- Etc.

- Ability to use 75mm lens in the future. (Not incredibly important by itself, but would become a deciding factor if necessary.)

- Light enough to hike with.

- Not awkward to carry like with studio monorails.

- Sturdy

- Well built

Etc.

Thanks again!


hm... it sounds like you've got to decide if you want a studio camera, or a folding field camera. You have a very broad list of things you want to shoot.

If I were in your shoes and was interested in shooting this broad of subject types, I would get a studio monorail camera because it will probably offer you the ease and capability to handle just about anything. And then for the times when you want to hike with the camera, I would figure out a good packpack to carry it in for when you want to go into the field. You could leave a short rail on the camera for the times you don't need a long rail (macro and long lens shooting)

When I was starting off shooting large format, I picked up a very inexpensive Cambo SC-2 monorail so that I could learn about all the movements. I later got a bag bellow for it. The only reason I don't sell that camera (since I hardly ever use it) is because it would probably work wonderfully with a 90mm for architecture shooting (with the bag bellow), something that I would like to get into. My main shooting is landscapes and general nature/tree/rock shooting while out hiking. And I found that with the monorail camera, I didn't like using it as much for general shooting, So I went with a folding field camera as my main camera.

[Frank Petronio]

Buying a new full-priced view camera is really wasting your money, especially since your tastes are running towards the more expensive models. They aren't like digital cameras that are obsolete in a year or two. You can buy a fifty year old camera that out-performs most of the newer ones, and you have a ready source of reliable sellers here and on APUG.

Just get the Chamonix for $800, that is a good deal for a newer camera and it is versatile enough to be a good general purpose box.

[Peter De Smidt]

I agree with Frank. Get the Chamonix, or perhaps the new Shen Hao lightweight, a copy of the Chamonix, from Badger Graphics or the View Camera Store. If you really want something a little slicker, then get an Ebony RW45. The latter will be a little faster in operation, mainly because extending the rear standard of the camera doesn't require being very careful not to inadvertently introduce swing. These cameras are reasonably priced and very capable. They should cover 90% of what anyone would want to photograph. After gaining experience with one of those, you could pick up a monorail if you really need one. That could be anything from a Calumet cc401 to a Sinar P2.

I owned a Toho for about 5 years. I prefer any of the cameras above by a wide margin. They are faster to use and they don't have a week point like the Toho's connection between the bellows/lensbaord holdr/back component and the rail/standards unit.

I have an Arca F-line, and it probably is the best all around camera, but new ones are ridiculously expensive, and other cameras will be better for specific tasks. For example, as long as I don't have to carry to far, I'd much rather use a Sinar P2. And if I do have to back pack, I'd much rather something lighter and more compact. (I'm not a fan of the Misura.)

I haven't been that impressed by any of the Gandolfies that I've seen or played with, but maybe that's me. The mdf versions are really too heavy for a field camera. If I'm going to carry that much weight in the field, than an Arca or Sinar would be much better.

One camera that I've never used or seen, but that I'm interested in, is the Walker Titan. The immunity to moisture problems--and shrinkage/warping can be a problem with any of the wooden cameras, even the most expensive--is a big plus. Maybe someone who has one can chime in.

[John Kasaian]

Funny you use that analogy, I play the sax. :)


Did you wait to learn to play the sax until you could afford a Selmer Mk VI? And if you did, do you think your music is any better than someone who was "born" blowing an old Martin or a Buescher?

You can always earn money, but time and opportunity is fleeting.

There are kids who march with baritones. Sugar-anting around just about any 4x5 is a piece of cake compared to that. :)

[Brad Rippe]

Autumn,
My $.02 is you should borrow a view camera rather than buy one if you can to see if its right for you. There is a learning curve that can take years, (I'm still riding that curve after 35 years). But, you can go out and make amazing images on your first outing.

I think you are getting sidetracked by various characteristics of the many cameras out there. It's great to do research, but a view camera is an extremely simple piece of equipment, and although some designs are ingenious, they simply allow one to adjust a lens plane and film plane at either end of a light tight box.

Keep it very simple at first, use one lens, one film and developer type. I use Tri-X and HC110.

You'll probably love the whole process, then you can upgrade to something better once you know if its for you.

Good Luck,

-Brad

[AutumnJazz]

hm... it sounds like you've got to decide if you want a studio camera, or a folding field camera. You have a very broad list of things you want to shoot.

If I were in your shoes and was interested in shooting this broad of subject types, I would get a studio monorail camera because it will probably offer you the ease and capability to handle just about anything. And then for the times when you want to hike with the camera, I would figure out a good packpack to carry it in for when you want to go into the field. You could leave a short rail on the camera for the times you don't need a long rail (macro and long lens shooting)

When I was starting off shooting large format, I picked up a very inexpensive Cambo SC-2 monorail so that I could learn about all the movements. I later got a bag bellow for it. The only reason I don't sell that camera (since I hardly ever use it) is because it would probably work wonderfully with a 90mm for architecture shooting (with the bag bellow), something that I would like to get into. My main shooting is landscapes and general nature/tree/rock shooting while out hiking. And I found that with the monorail camera, I didn't like using it as much for general shooting, So I went with a folding field camera as my main camera.
I want a folding field camera. I'm not really that interested in studio work, aside from macro. I'm afraid to get a monorail camera because they'll probably be too heavy and awkward so I'll never actually use them.


Buying a new full-priced view camera is really wasting your money, especially since your tastes are running towards the more expensive models. They aren't like digital cameras that are obsolete in a year or two. You can buy a fifty year old camera that out-performs most of the newer ones, and you have a ready source of reliable sellers here and on APUG.

Just get the Chamonix for $800, that is a good deal for a newer camera and it is versatile enough to be a good general purpose box.
I don't buy new unless I have to, or it is some low-cost item like a UV filter.


I agree with Frank. Get the Chamonix, or perhaps the new Shen Hao lightweight, a copy of the Chamonix, from Badger Graphics or the View Camera Store. If you really want something a little slicker, then get an Ebony RW45. The latter will be a little faster in operation, mainly because extending the rear standard of the camera doesn't require being very careful not to inadvertently introduce swing. These cameras are reasonably priced and very capable. They should cover 90% of what anyone would want to photograph. After gaining experience with one of those, you could pick up a monorail if you really need one. That could be anything from a Calumet cc401 to a Sinar P2.

I owned a Toho for about 5 years. I prefer any of the cameras above by a wide margin. They are faster to use and they don't have a week point like the Toho's connection between the bellows/lensbaord holdr/back component and the rail/standards unit.

I have an Arca F-line, and it probably is the best all around camera, but new ones are ridiculously expensive, and other cameras will be better for specific tasks. For example, as long as I don't have to carry to far, I'd much rather use a Sinar P2. And if I do have to back pack, I'd much rather something lighter and more compact. (I'm not a fan of the Misura.)

I haven't been that impressed by any of the Gandolfies that I've seen or played with, but maybe that's me. The mdf versions are really too heavy for a field camera. If I'm going to carry that much weight in the field, than an Arca or Sinar would be much better.

One camera that I've never used or seen, but that I'm interested in, is the Walker Titan. The immunity to moisture problems--and shrinkage/warping can be a problem with any of the wooden cameras, even the most expensive--is a big plus. Maybe someone who has one can chime in.
The Gandolfi that I'm interested is is a wooden Varient. What didn't you like about them? I agree, the Misura doesn't really interest me at all. Oh, the Walker. I had looked into that at first, actually, and was going to mention it in this thread but it just seemed way too expensive. Plus 430mm is cutting it close for macro work.


Did you wait to learn to play the sax until you could afford a Selmer Mk VI? And if you did, do you think your music is any better than someone who was "born" blowing an old Martin or a Buescher?

You can always earn money, but time and opportunity is fleeting.

There are kids who march with baritones. Sugar-anting around just about any 4x5 is a piece of cake compared to that. :)
The thing is, I really don't have any money that I can spend right now. I am really busy in school at the moment, so I can't get a job quite yet, which is why I'm focussing on January as the date to jump into 4x5. I should have a job by then, and I should have money for the camera, lenses, film, et al. Right now I can't even afford a basic camera.

I always wanted a Baritone, actually, but they are so insanely expensive I gave up on that.


Autumn,
My $.02 is you should borrow a view camera rather than buy one if you can to see if its right for you. There is a learning curve that can take years, (I'm still riding that curve after 35 years). But, you can go out and make amazing images on your first outing.

I think you are getting sidetracked by various characteristics of the many cameras out there. It's great to do research, but a view camera is an extremely simple piece of equipment, and although some designs are ingenious, they simply allow one to adjust a lens plane and film plane at either end of a light tight box.

Keep it very simple at first, use one lens, one film and developer type. I use Tri-X and HC110.

You'll probably love the whole process, then you can upgrade to something better once you know if its for you.

Good Luck,

-Brad
I have used a view camera before, and I like it. I want one for the movements and slowness (maybe patience is a better word?) of the format first, and then for the 1400% larger negative (when compared to 135).


Again, I thank you all! :)

[Peter De Smidt]

"Plus 430mm is cutting it close for macro work."

That really depends on the type of macro work you plan on doing. It'll allow 1:1 with a 210 lens. If you need to go further, there are lot's of better lenses for macros, such as using an enlarging lens, a g-claron in a barrel, or any number of barrel lenses. 150mm or even shorter would be fine. Given the bellows factor and the limited depth of field, you will tend to have long exposures, and so a shutter probably wouldn't be needed. Notice that doing a large format macro of something that might move in the wind would be problematic at best.

[AutumnJazz]

Interesting...thank you.

[Ron Marshall]

If you are interested there is a Gandolfi Variant for sale on APUG (I have no connection with the seller and no idea of the condition of the camera):

http://www.apug.org/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=8157&sort=1&cat=2&page=1

[cjbroadbent]

If you are interested there is a Gandolfi Variant for sale on APUG......
Stay clear of the Variant. It's a big as a 5x7 and clunky. The problem being the thick composite no-warp 'wood' construction (Camera wood timber needs to be seasoned for decades and there was none left after the last brother died). Go for a non-folding short base Ebony. No set up. Straight out of the bag onto the tripod.

[Ole Tjugen]

Stay clear of the Variant. It's a big as a 5x7 and clunky. The problem being the thick composite no-warp 'wood' construction (Camera wood timber needs to be seasoned for decades and there was none left after the last brother died). Go for a non-folding short base Ebony. No set up. Straight out of the bag onto the tripod.

There are wooden Variants, and there are composite Variants. shortage of materials was not a factor in deciding on composite for the original Variant, rather a decision to use modern materials throughout to make the most stable folding camera possible.
Mine is a composite one. It may not look as beautiful as a mahogany camera, but I'm certain that it won't warp or split.


A non-folding short base Ebony would be completely wrong for the OP, who also wants sufficient bellows for macro photography.

[Frank Petronio]

What is funny is that this guy probably won't buy any camera for months, if ever. Could it be that we are just masturbating with all this gear talk?

Not me of course. I love my equipment.

[archivue]

i will star with a good value camera that i can resell easely if i want to upgrade... you can find some Toyo 45A for a very good price.
Start with it and a 150 or 210 lens... and if you shop carefully you can find a modern 90 and you will still have some cash for film... if you find that the 45A doesn't suit your needs, you will be able to sell it without loosing anything...
You can also start with a sinar F, but it's not that easy to packed !

After having used a lot of camera, i'm now using an arca swiss Fline Field C taht i love, but i still make good shots with a 45A as well...

[John Kasaian]

The OP made it clear he dosen't have the scratch to buy a high ticket LF camera right now.
Perhaps he feels that lusting after a high dollar camera will motivate him to save up his pennies, which is OK, but I think he'd be better off lusting after taking LF photographs rather than let not having the equivalent of a Rolls Royce camera prevent him from doing just that.
I have yet to see a print "tell" which manfacturer built the camera which spawned it (except maybe Cirkuts)

[AutumnJazz]

What is funny is that this guy probably won't buy any camera for months, if ever. Could it be that we are just masturbating with all this gear talk?

Not me of course. I love my equipment.
I can't afford a camera until January. I'm a student, I'm busy, etc. I have to save.

The OP made it clear he dosen't have the scratch to buy a high ticket LF camera right now.
Perhaps he feels that lusting after a high dollar camera will motivate him to save up his pennies, which is OK, but I think he'd be better off lusting after taking LF photographs rather than let not having the equivalent of a Rolls Royce camera prevent him from doing just that.
I have yet to see a print "tell" which manfacturer built the camera which spawned it (except maybe Cirkuts)
The thing is that I would get a LF camera right now if I had no camera, but I can deal with just having a 35mm camera right now. :) My F100 is holding me off until January.

[Nick_3536]

Option 1:

Get a 5x7 with a 4x5 back. Something like a Shen FCL-57 will fit all your needs if you add the 4x5 back. Not the cheapests but you want one camera to do everything.

Option 2: Forget getting one perfect camera and get two or more specialized cameras. If you're doing macro at home why worry about weight? Get an 8x10 monorail with a 4x5 back.

Then add a basic 4x5 field camera.

Make sure both can take the same lensboards [even if it needs an adapter board]

LF isn't the place to ry for one perfect camera to handle everything. Much smarter to get cameras that do one thing really well.

[AutumnJazz]

Will I not be spending much more if I go for multiple cameras? Is a 5x7 not larger and heavier than a 4x5?

I'm not looking for the perfect camera; I am looking for the most affordable and useful tool for photography. Macro isn't on the top of my list; 'scapes, then portraits, then macro, etc. Either way, who says I won't find something interesting in the field that facilitates a macro shot? I'm not one to really scout out locations and plan photographs ahead, and maybe that is a bad thing, but that is just not how I "work" right now. I bring my 35mm with me whenever and wherever I can. Many times I plan trips or just go somewhere that is either beautiful or makes me think that I can take a beautiful and/or interesting photograph or two there. I guess I have a sporadic style, but I still feel I am learning. I'm still refining. And for me, I have concluded that the next step in "perfecting" my style is to get a large format camera. First and foremost, I want the movements. Right now, I feel that the lack of movements is what is limiting me the most in photography, at least in terms of tools. But the larger emulsion area also brings its own advantages, such as its lack of grain in normal enlargements and its ability to be enlarged to insane proportions. Also, though, is the 4:5 aspect ratio. One of the things that pains me is cropping my 135 images to make a so-called traditional print. I guess that is the Henri Cartier-Bresson in me...I really, really hate cropping...but I always compose in the 135 aspect ratio way, because that is what I see through my viewfinder. (Also I like insanely wide images so I plan to add a 6x17 roll back in the future. One aspect is the ability for insanely wide images without having to lopp-off some of the 4x5 native image, but also the ability to use roll film in case I somehow run out of 4x5 film.)

I just want a useful tool that will last me...I don't want to always have that idea lingering in the back of my head that I should upgrade to something better if I were to go with a cheaper, possibly more limited or less durable camera, than if I went for an amazing camera in the first place. If I were to get, say, a Wista 4x5, I would probably think about a Gandolfi Varient when I'm not taking pictures. I would tell myself, that Gandolfi Varient wasn't much more money than this Wista, and it just felt like such a better camera. Whereas if I go with the Gandolfi Varient, the only better camera in my eyes is that $5,000 Ebony or $8,000+ Carbon Infinity. To me, that is an insane unaffordable price, so I won't really care.

Photography is something I love, I really care about it. I love to look at photographs, I love to take/make them.

I am probably a flawed fool, but if so, that is just who I am. I'm also stubborn, so there is no sense in trying to change it. :(

I do really appreciate all the advice, and I always accept more dissent or acquiescence. :)

[Daniel_Buck]

sounds to me like you just need to get one and start shooting :-)

[Nick_3536]

Will I not be spending much more if I go for multiple cameras? Is a 5x7 not larger and heavier than a 4x5?

I just want a useful tool that will last me.

No the exact opposite. The often suggested Calumet CC-401 long rail is a very cheap monorail to do macros with. The big 8x10s aren't much more these days. Most people just don't want to haul them around. If you're doing macros or even portraits and don't need to hike the hills for the portraits then the weight isn't a big deal. Plus if you ever want to try some of the big older lenses you'll be happier with a stronger camera.

Likewise the more common 4x5 field cameras aren't that expensive but they don't have very long bellows.

Buying multiple cameras for multiple goals ends up cheaper then trying to find one camera that ticks all the boxes.

This isn't like smaller formats. Almost any modern lens can be used on any modern camera with enough bellows. Lenses will end up being your most expensive item. The cameras aren't much more then boxes to hold the lenses.

The Shen 5x7 is something like 3kgs. The 8x10 is just over 4kg I think. That's less then some heavy 4x5s.

The tool that will last are the lenses. Almost all my lenses are on Linhof type boards. They can be used on my different cameras depending on the goal.

[John Kasaian]

if you want a light 5x7 chechkout the Nagaoka in wood or the Gowland Pocket View if monorails are your favorite flavor.

[AutumnJazz]

I don't think I really want to mess with 5x7. I don't do my own processing, and 5x7 usually costs just as much to process as 8x10, so if I want a negative larger than 4x5 I'll probably just go 8x10. That is for the future, if ever.

Another thing though, Nick, is that I actually like to do portraits in the woods, on hikes and whatnot. One session I did recently for a friend was a portrait of her and her cello through some local trails. Nice long, relaxing hike and some amazing pictures. :)

[marcojoe]

I just retired after shooting Commercial for 55 years and used every format from 8x10 down to 35mm. I also taught at a Community College for 7 years nights. I always asked my students in what direction they want to go from school. A hobby or serious about a profession.
This then leads into equipment. A $2000 investment is not for you if you're not serious. There are many 4x5 cameras out there used and new available. For several hundred dollars such as Calumet that are well built and always keep their market value.
Buy from a reliable dealer that has been in business for a number of years that sell to pros also, if any thing go wrong and you can talk to. If you are in a small town, go to a large city near you or get to know a commercial photographer in you area who are willing to give you a little time to talk to.
In a couple of years from now, is the equipment going to sit on the shelf collecting dust? In all the years I was teaching Basic Commercial Photography, of the 200 or so students, only 5 went on to be a full time shooter. I don't want to sound discouraging but I tell it as it is.

[Jack Dahlgren]

I just retired after shooting Commercial for 55 years and used every format from 8x10 down to 35mm. I also taught at a Community College for 7 years nights. I always asked my students in what direction they want to go from school. A hobby or serious about a profession.
This then leads into equipment. A $2000 investment is not for you if you're not serious. There are many 4x5 cameras out there used and new available. For several hundred dollars such as Calumet that are well built and always keep their market value.
Buy from a reliable dealer that has been in business for a number of years that sell to pros also, if any thing go wrong and you can talk to. If you are in a small town, go to a large city near you or get to know a commercial photographer in you area who are willing to give you a little time to talk to.
In a couple of years from now, is the equipment going to sit on the shelf collecting dust? In all the years I was teaching Basic Commercial Photography, of the 200 or so students, only 5 went on to be a full time shooter. I don't want to sound discouraging but I tell it as it is.

I wonder if the original poster has already given up LF in the past three years :-)

[Bob Sawin]

It looks like you are near NYC. Why not find a pro shop that rents gear and test drive some cameras first.

Bob

[captivelight]

After looking around for a while on this forum I ended up buy a used Toyo 45G. I hope it's not too much for a beginner, but having never touched a LF camera before I probably wouldn't know the difference.