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View Full Version : Bad ebay deal -- let it slide, or....?



paul08
21-Oct-2008, 19:38
Hi folks. Some of you may have read a bit about my bad ebay deal last month on the Toyo 45A with trashed bellows that was mailed 2 1/2 weeks after I was told it was sent. The seller refunded my payment and I've sent the camera back (we still need to settle up over the $50+ return shipping). The issue is that now this seller has re-listed the camera (he couldn't even have it back yet), or at least he's using the same picture and description, with a couple of changes saying the bellows have been "patched" -- they're beyond patching if it is indeed the camera I received. I took pictures of the damage, recorded the serial number, etc, in the event I had to file a paypal claim (vs. dispute). The question is, should I out the guy, and maybe help someone else not get burned, or just let it go? The seller is a member here ('though not very active), and has decent ebay feedback. I'm not sure my information would help all that much, but 45As have been going for around the $700-800 mark, and Western Bellows quoted me $238 for the bellows replacement, which would push the total price to around $1,000, for an operable camera. I'm just considering what I can do to save someone else the frustration. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Paul

Here are the bellows, originally described like this (direct quote): "The bellows are perfectly light tight with no pinholes or light leaks."

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h286/bakuma/IMG_0741.jpg

Sheldon N
21-Oct-2008, 22:15
Did you leave appropriate feedback on Ebay for him? With Ebay's new feedback system, a seller cannot leave retaliatory negative feedback.

I'd say just state the facts on his Ebay account, and let other buyers read and make an informed decision.

IanMazursky
22-Oct-2008, 02:13
WOW! That sucks so much. I would out him. If not for you then for the next person who ends up with this mess.

Good luck!

eric black
22-Oct-2008, 04:34
Im with Ian- ebay operates on the premise that people are typically honest. This person doesnt seem to fit that description and should be removed or at least reprimanded somehow. Id fight it.

eddie
22-Oct-2008, 04:51
if nothing else tell US who he is......!

Ivan J. Eberle
22-Oct-2008, 05:47
This forum is perhaps as effective a place to warn the cogniscenti, but also, eBay has forums to root out the bad apples still, I think?

At least link the new auction here, to flag it as one to avoid. I'd maybe pepper him with Ask A Question(s), who knows, he might actually feel compelled to answer them in the auction.

GSX4
22-Oct-2008, 06:19
I'm sorry someone has stooped this low and done this to you. It plain sucks. Out him, on E'Bay and on here for the dirtbag they are. Complete misrepresentation of the goods and complete disregard for EBay policy. If you do not get anywhere with arbitration, consider going to paypal as they have up to $2000 protection for buyers for things like this. Log it as an unauthorized transaction QUICKLY. They will deal with it. Hope this helps you out?

otzi
22-Oct-2008, 07:06
I don't know, the seller will just continue on regardless. Even changing his name if needed. Trying to 'out' him is a bit like lighting a candle and watching the climate change. Like banks and their interest revenue I would find it hard to see eBay doing much to restrict a fee paying patron.

Better to list the item and # on this forum (and others) so at least some of the LF community may be advised. Having bought a few items I have found one wises up (in time) to the tricks. Like listing a lens and finding an older or inappropriate shutter has been fitted. Yes it can be returned, if realized in time, but the hassle is a bother not to mention the return cost not always recovered.

One must always ask a plethora of questions and conclude from the response the true situation. The trick is figuring the correct questions in advance. Not always easy.

As an extension I find it curious that Co's put on shutter part #'s but there seems no access to this information down the track.

John Kasaian
22-Oct-2008, 07:40
The bellows are patched---you can easily see the duct tape residue!
The trouble is that the patch obviously didn't remedy the problem. He should have clearly stated "Needs bellows"
Dishonesty demands attention. Don't let him get away with this!

paul08
22-Oct-2008, 07:55
Thanks for the feedback. The seller has emailed me to let me know that he canceled the auction. He says he had listed it for a friend and was unclear as to the condition. I've been on ebay for 10 yrs, and bought and sold camera gear before, but I guess I've been lucky because I've had few problems. One thing I've learned from this is to ask more specific questions about the condition of everything (in this case I only asked about the condition of the lens, since the small picture made the camera look OK). The seller has refunded my payment for the camera and promised to pay for return shipping, so I'll chalk this one up to experience. Given the seller's past positive feedback I've decided not to list the auction. If this deal was an anomaly, then there is probably no reason to call attention to it for years to come, archived on the LF forums. I suspect most of you have already seen this, but if not, here's a link to an experience Michael Crowell had:

http://www.waterbirch.com/photo/bellows/bellowscondition.htm

At the bottom he lists some sources of bellows repair. For what it's worth, the guy I spoke with at Western Bellows was helpful, sympathetic and said if I couldn't return the camera for a refund he could get the new bellows on it and get it back to me in two weeks. I'm not sure whether this was the normal time or a bit of a "rush," but it was nice to know I had a viable plan B.

Paul

goamules
22-Oct-2008, 13:17
I had a misrepresented lens deal a few months ago, discussed here:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=40512
But I tried several communications with the seller, and all I got was excuses, then no responses. I left a neutral vs a neg because everyone on this board thought I still paid a good price. But to me, a brillo-pad scratched front element is not worth any price....

PBrooks
22-Oct-2008, 20:44
Sorry to hear about your bad deal!
How long should you give a buyer to pay on a buy it now item? After sending invoice and follow up email of course.

goamules
22-Oct-2008, 21:18
If they're not responding, I'd give less time. If they write and say it's coming, or they need a few days, I don't sweat it. Everyone forgets when it took "4-6 weeks for delivery" and payment was mailed also. But if you are hearing nothing, I'd give them a warning after 4-5 days; "please let me know if there's a problem...." then give it another couple days. Sometimes people are sick, or whatever. If 2 weeks goes by with nothing I'd get ready to do a "non paying" issue.

Kuzano
22-Oct-2008, 21:35
Sorry to hear about your bad deal!
How long should you give a buyer to pay on a buy it now item? After sending invoice and follow up email of course.

When you use Buy It Now... use the "Immediate Payment Required" option. Nothing is more frustrating than having someone use BIN and blow your auction out and then fiddle around with payment or not pay at all. With "immediate payment reguired", unless the buyer pays right away with Paypal, the auction does not close. If a buyer wants your item and agrees to your Buy It Now price to close the auction right now, then the buyer should also be prepared to pony up the money at purchase time.

If someone came to your house and looked at the camera, what would you do if he said, "Yeah, I'll take it. Hold it for me for a couple of weeks, and I will come back and pay for it and pick it up".

FAT CHANCE.

As far as the original poster, another approach might have been to closely inspect the camera for other flaws, and if none, then renegotiate the price to recover the cost of the new bellows. A hassle, yes, but you would have ended up with a camera at the price you paid, with a new bellows. If you keep shopping, you're still going to get camera's with used bellows.

But please post the listing number here for the sake of members of this forum. I say this selfishly, because I am looking for a Toyo 45A and I don't want the one you bought.

Besides, it's factual and the fair thing to do if the camera is, in fact, being misrepresented again.

But the real backdrop to all this is that eBay is a risk marketplace with NO real protection when you get down to it. Most of the people who tell you to file a protest, or do this or that, have never had the actual experience themselves.

I teach eBay classes..in fact I have one this Saturday... I teach how to watch for these situations, and stress honest ethical listings, disclosing the "warts" as I call them. But, in fact, it's the ultimate venue for less ethical people.

seawolf66
23-Oct-2008, 16:05
On any sale that has turn out that it needed to be returned , I have recieved a full refund and postage return refund : Lauren

Len Middleton
23-Oct-2008, 17:26
The recent change to eBay policy is an improvement to partly address the "bad actors", by reducing the ability of sellers to leave negative retaliatory feedback.

I buy more stuff than I sell, but I did run into a problem with retaliatory feedback. In part I did not follow policy properly. I sold an item and after many ignored e-mails, and when really I should have notified eBay of a non-paying bider and get a refund on the listing and final value fees, instead I left negative feedback.

Got negative feedback within hours. They were of course kind enough to offer to withdraw the negative feedback if I did the same. That would have been the smart thing to do, especially as their feedback was an order of magnitude greater than mine in number, and I would suffer more than them on a percentage basis.

In reviewing their feedback, I saw they even needed to provide comments and explanations for their neutral and positive feedback. This was a result of very few individuals doing the "right thing", but instead doing the "smart thing".

FeeBay does not monitor feedback and address the bad actors, as it reduces their operating costs and their liability (too cynical?), so you are pretty much on your own. Therefore it is not an effective "self policing" buying and selling environment.

Having said that, I continue to participate, but with caution.

So decide whatever it is you want to do. Do you want to be known as doing the smart thing or the right thing?

My $0.02 worth, and worth every penny,

Len

paul08
25-Oct-2008, 07:58
Thanks again for the feedback. I've received a full refund and the camera has been sent back, so now I am just waiting for the return shipping refund. In the future I'll try to ask even the questions that don't seem to need asking, regarding condition. BTW, for those of you looking, there is a nice 45A w/ new bellows on the auction site for less than $600 BIN, and a similar camera just sold on the same site for $425. I have no knowledge of or relationship to either seller, just pointing out that there are some good Toyo deals out there. Thanks partly to the great info I received from this forum, I'm thinking more in the direction of the Chamonix now (Mr. Zhang has said the next batch should arrive in January).

Paul