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Matus Kalisky
18-Oct-2008, 02:13
I do not seem to get on well with tray developement so I am looking for some drum-like possibilities. Curretnly I do use Jobo 1521 for my 120 films with good results, so I started to consider the bigger 2521 for 4x5. My developeroch choice is Pyrocat HD and I use inversion agitation. Also - I do not make large production runs - max of 6 sheets at a time is about right.
But before I invest in this direction I would like to ask about your opinions or suggestions.

A few questions:
1) How much chemicals (volume) is needed for inversion agitation with 2521
2) Any caveats about the procedure or the drum itself?
3) Any "better" drums to be considered?

thanks

Nick_3536
18-Oct-2008, 02:29
I'd consider the 2551 instead. You can still use one reel if you want. But it will be better overall.

1) If you can find a unicolor or similar roller base it'll fit. The smaller 2521 won't.

2) With a 2509N reel the 2521 is full to the top. I'm not sure if you'd get good developer movement. With the bigger tank you'll have plenty of headroom.

It's more then one litre to cover the 2509N reel in either tank. I want to say close to 1.2litres but I don't use inversion.

Mick Fagan
18-Oct-2008, 05:33
The 2521 tank is/was designed for rotary processing, therefore the chemical usage was minimal, 270ml (I use 300ml).

The tank does work quite well for inversion processing, but does use a lot of chemicals. I think the reason for this is that the sheets are quite far apart to allow for chemicals to pass by the film freely, so the tank is a bigger (wider) tank than most other 4x5 sheet film tanks I have seen.

My own usage of this tank on a CPE2 is that it works best with only 4 sheets. I have used 6 sheets, but I had processing errors. Using 6 sheets of film, is the only time I have had processing errors with this drum. Remember though, this is rotary processing.

The drum can be used with inversion and works well. I have used mine for inversion, but that was about 18 or more years ago, so I'm a tad off with chemistry levels, but it is over 1,000ml possibly 1.2l or close to that. With inversion I don't see any problems with loading 6 sheets onto the reel.

There is a sheet film loader which certainly makes life easier and more importantly, keeps hot sweaty fingers off your emulsion. The sheet film holder takes three film guides, one of which is for 4x5 film.

Jobo did make a sheet film kit for 4 (or six) 4x5 sheet films, it was called, "Sheet film Kit 4341" for 4 sheet films 4x5"

1 tank item No. 2521
1 reel 4x5" Item No. 2509
1 sheet film loader Item No. 2508
1 film guide Item No. 2512 (this is the 4x5 guide)

The other sheet film guides that the loader will load onto the 2509 reels are called:-

6x9cm Item No. 2510
9x12cm Item No. 2511

The print drum system 2800 is the same set of drums, the only major difference is the sticker on the outside. The 2820 test drum is actually the 2521 tank.

You may find a print drum which comes apart called the 2840, this is designed to do a print of 30x40cm. However if you pull the bottom part off, you once again have the 2521 tank.

As it appears you have some Jobo processing stuff, you may be interested to know that the centre core for the 4x5 drum 2521, is the same centre core as that used in the 1520 film drum.

So if you already have a 2 reel centre core for the 1520, this is handy.

Whilst the 2509 reel does come virtually right to the lip of the 2521 tank, the film is about 8 - 10mm below the lip top as it is inside the reel itself.

I am in the lucky position of having both a cog fitted 2500 top and another top without the cog, so I can do rotary or if (when) my processor dies, I'll just switch to inversion using the same system and the only changes will be more chamicals and more hand work.

Mick.

Matus Kalisky
19-Oct-2008, 14:19
Thanks. It seems that Jobo 2551 would be an option.

Actually - I just had a look on the BTZS system and watched the video on the webpage of the viewcamera store site. Looks also interesting, but seems to be a lot of hand work (to keep the tubes rotating). But what really suprised me (and may mean a hole in my darkroom knowledge) is that after the developemkent is over, the guy in the video just open the tubes - with lights ON - and put it in the stop bath. So - is the film not senitive to light anymore after the developement before fixing/stopping?

But there are also other drums - like jobo expert drum 3010 or 3006 where the film loading seems to be easier (less scratch prone) - how much chemicals would these use with an inversion agitation? Is the "pump" really necessary to open the drum (never seen one life)? What all the stuff is actually necessary to use one of these?

Bjorn Nilsson
19-Oct-2008, 14:54
Regarding the BTZS tubes: I think it's said somewhere (on their own site) that the opening/dumping into stop bath should be done in subdued light, e.g. darkroom light. So, just take care. As I don't use BTZS (even though I considered to), I don't do this, but it's good to know that the film/paper is more or less safe once in the stop bath.
I think that I will test this at some point with step wedges etc. to see if something really happens (or not).

Your other option, the Expert 3010, is also made to be used exclusively for rotary processing. If the developer is strong enough, you can get by with as little as 250ml for all of the films. But for inversion it needs a couple of liters or so. Besides, there is no "top lid" as such on an Expert drum, just the cog which goes into the lift of a CPA/CPP2 processor. But many uses the Expert drums on other (i.e. cheaper) roller bases with great success. Also, another great advantage with the Expert drums is that the development is very uniform.

//Björn

Ed Brock
19-Oct-2008, 18:17
Let me suggest an alternative. The Patterson #117 tank (Freestyle @ $40.) and soft tubes will process 10 sheets of 4x5 in daylight. Here are some advantages: No contrast build-up as in rotary processors including BTZS. Can withstand the most aggressive inversion agitation with no leaking. Daylignt processing & probe temp. Solution fill and dump in seconds. Even development and never a scratch.

I've been using this method for sev. years now, so far with no failures - here's how it works. Make soft tubes from any mesh fabric by cutting 4x6" rectangles. Fold into 4x3" and sew, staple or glue 1/4" from the edge. Roll the exposed sheet film and insert into the "soft Tube". It will pop open with the edges held about 1/4" apart. then stand the tubes vertically around the fill tube of the Patterson roll film tank. You will find that 5 will fit perfectly in a circle (27 oz. solution required) or add another 5 in a second layer (now 54 oz. solution). If you are only processing 1 layer you will need to add an empty 120 reel to hold the film under the solution.

This is all pretty low tech and I am surprised I am the first to stumble on to this process. You could get the larger Patterson tank and process sheet film and 120 roll film in the same tank at the same time - I do it often. The larger tank is also great for 5x7 (up to 8-10 sheets at one time)

jeroldharter
19-Oct-2008, 20:26
To answer your question, I would get a Jobo 3010 tube for 4x5. Very easy to load up to 10 sheets with 1000 ml of chemistry. You can get a Jobo roller base for cheap and hand roll the tube in a developing tray with a water bath.

I use BTZS tubes also. Switched over from Jobo. The tubes work well and allow me to have a different development time, or dilution, or even developer for each sheet of film. However, the system is a bunch of tubes and caps which take some getting used to. When I process in BTZS tubes, I roll the tubes in the water bath until the development time is done. I do this with a regular amber safelight on. When the time is done on the first tube, I open it, dump the developer, and put the tube in a tray of stop bath and give it a roll. I continue processing the next 5 tubes in a similar manner until all six tubes are sitting in the tray of stop bath. I orient the tube openings in the opposite direction of the safe light just for common sense. Then I pull the film from each tube and place it in an individual compartment of a Photographers Formulary slosher in a tray of fixer. Then I flip the lights on and watch the film clear. No problems. Complete processing from there with PermaWash and wetting agent.

soeren
10-Jun-2009, 01:03
The 2521 tank is/was designed for rotary processing, therefore the chemical usage was minimal, 270ml (I use 300ml).

The tank does work quite well for inversion processing, but does use a lot of chemicals. I think the reason for this is that the sheets are quite far apart to allow for chemicals to pass by the film freely, so the tank is a bigger (wider) tank than most other 4x5 sheet film tanks I have seen.

My own usage of this tank on a CPE2 is that it works best with only 4 sheets. I have used 6 sheets, but I had processing errors. Using 6 sheets of film, is the only time I have had processing errors with this drum. Remember though, this is rotary processing.

The drum can be used with inversion and works well. I have used mine for inversion, but that was about 18 or more years ago, so I'm a tad off with chemistry levels, but it is over 1,000ml possibly 1.2l or close to that. With inversion I don't see any problems with loading 6 sheets onto the reel.

There is a sheet film loader which certainly makes life easier and more importantly, keeps hot sweaty fingers off your emulsion. The sheet film holder takes three film guides, one of which is for 4x5 film.

Jobo did make a sheet film kit for 4 (or six) 4x5 sheet films, it was called, "Sheet film Kit 4341" for 4 sheet films 4x5"

1 tank item No. 2521
1 reel 4x5" Item No. 2509
1 sheet film loader Item No. 2508
1 film guide Item No. 2512 (this is the 4x5 guide)

The other sheet film guides that the loader will load onto the 2509 reels are called:-

6x9cm Item No. 2510
9x12cm Item No. 2511

The print drum system 2800 is the same set of drums, the only major difference is the sticker on the outside. The 2820 test drum is actually the 2521 tank.

You may find a print drum which comes apart called the 2840, this is designed to do a print of 30x40cm. However if you pull the bottom part off, you once again have the 2521 tank.

As it appears you have some Jobo processing stuff, you may be interested to know that the centre core for the 4x5 drum 2521, is the same centre core as that used in the 1520 film drum.

So if you already have a 2 reel centre core for the 1520, this is handy.

Whilst the 2509 reel does come virtually right to the lip of the 2521 tank, the film is about 8 - 10mm below the lip top as it is inside the reel itself.

I am in the lucky position of having both a cog fitted 2500 top and another top without the cog, so I can do rotary or if (when) my processor dies, I'll just switch to inversion using the same system and the only changes will be more chamicals and more hand work.

Mick.

Doing a search on the jobo 2840 paper drum lead me to this.
So let me get this straight. Having the 2840 I will only have to buy the 4X5 sheet film reels 2509n and the guide 2511/2512 to be able to develop 9X12cm/4X5", right?
The loader is not essential but nice to have, right?
The reason I did the search is that I got this drum in package with my CPE2+ and I was wondering if I could use it for 13X18cm sheetfilm? I've heard about unevendevelopment, streaking etc using this drum, comments?
Best regards

venchka
10-Jun-2009, 10:20
The 2551/2553 and a motor base works extemely well. With an assortment of reels, you can process 35mm, 120/220 and 4x5 in the 2551/2553 tank. In fact, you can fit 1 reel of each format in the tank. At the same time.

For inversion, you need the lid with the red stopper top. Or find a cork/stopper to fit the cog lid.

The lid for the 2840 print drum comes with a chemical cup/light trap. I'm not sure if the center post from the 2551 will work with the 2840. If I remember, I'll check tonight.

No experience with film in the 2840.

soeren
10-Jun-2009, 10:30
Seems like it will. what worries me now is the ridges, will they be in the way of the reels?
Best regards

Matus Kalisky
16-Jul-2009, 01:50
Back is the original poster :-)

so - in the mean time I used the Jobo 2521 tank with 2509n reel - either with 4 or 6 sheets - always fine. Recently I got the jobo manual roller base, but as the tank is rather short (as is my other jobo 1520) it dos not really fit well.

I have no problem to load the 2509n reel. Although I do have the loading "black plastic pieces" I did not manage to figure out how to use them. But even without them I have no problem to load the reel. At the same time I improved the temperature control (simply keeping the fluids in a water bath) and if I finally make a few test sheets I may after 3 years reach an acceptable level of consistency for the first time (oh well).

Now - while I like the results, to keep the drums rolling by hand is not very convenient as (contrary to inversion agitation) one has no time to prepare subsequent solutions etc.

So - I am thinking of getting SOME motor base and if necessary a different (longer, larger, probably the 2551 as the 30XX are pricey and complicated to open) drum, as it would be handy to be able to develop more than 6 sheets at a time. But the question is: WHICH motor base and WHERE to find it? (preferably in Europe)? I check the eBay here and then but did not get lucky yet.

mpirie
16-Jul-2009, 03:54
I use the 2521 tank with the 2509n reel on a CPE2 processor base.

The black plastic "guides" are actually meant to help distribute the chemicals while the drum is rotating and also to stop the film sliding out of the grooves in the reel.

Look at the reel and you'll see a small plastic pin (about 2mm) protruding from both the top and bottom half of the reel for each side of the reel (4 in total) and when you look at the plastic "guides" you'll see V shaped notches in the end plates.

Once the film is loaded (emulsion in) you place the plastic guides in such a way that the pins click over the V notches in the guides and effectively stop the film ends from popping out.

I had uneven development before i figured out how to use the reels properly.

Mike

Nick_3536
16-Jul-2009, 09:32
. But the question is: WHICH motor base and WHERE to find it? (preferably in Europe)? I check the eBay here and then but did not get lucky yet.

The normal answer is the Uniroller 351 or the Beseler. But in Europe? No idea but if you find two send me one :D

You'll need the 2551/2561/2581 with the base Either that or look for the 2560 extension. The 2521 is too short for the base.