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Blacky Dalton
16-Oct-2008, 21:41
Just wondering if anyone that is a View Camera Magazine subscriber has read the preview article in the subscriber section by Gordon Hutchings? Gordon has a new pyro film developer, Max Pyro, that he has just released.

I am really excited about something that Gordon feels is better than PMK. There was some talk two years ago at the LF Conference and again I heard there was more talk about a new developer from Gordon this year. According to the article, Bostick & Sullivan will be the source for Max Pyro. I cannot find anything on the B&S web site at this time. Has anyone else heard anything?

B. Dalton

Shen45
16-Oct-2008, 22:06
Just wondering if anyone that is a View Camera Magazine subscriber has read the preview article in the subscriber section by Gordon Hutchings? Gordon has a new pyro film developer, Max Pyro, that he has just released.

I am really excited about something that Gordon feels is better than PMK. There was some talk two years ago at the LF Conference and again I heard there was more talk about a new developer from Gordon this year. According to the article, Bostick & Sullivan will be the source for Max Pyro. I cannot find anything on the B&S web site at this time. Has anyone else heard anything?

B. Dalton

Well I'm curious :)

How is it different to PMK?

Steve

Blacky Dalton
16-Oct-2008, 22:25
Well I'm curious :)

How is it different to PMK?

Steve

I know very little other than what I have heard, mostly as rumor. In the article Gordon says, “Despite this success (PMK), I have wanted for some years to develop a formula with less overall stain for the faster films favored by the ULF group and alternative process printers.” It is also suppose to yield full rated film speed.

I had heard that the new formula is designed to yield near zero base stain. I had also heard that it should be good for those wanting to use HP5+ for alternative process. I am interested just because I was told that Gordon was very excited about the ‘look’ of his silver prints from Max Pyro negatives.

The article, slated for the Nov/Dec issue of VC Magazine, says the developer should be available from B&S by the time of publication. So I would guess sometime near December we should be able to order some to try.

B. Dalton

Turner Reich
16-Oct-2008, 22:41
View Camera magazine never came to my town, is it still in production?

Eric Biggerstaff
17-Oct-2008, 06:41
View Camera is still around and published, check their website.

B&S will be the distributor of Max Pyro but they are not yet ready to market it. I spoke to them last week and they have the formula but are not quite ready to put it on the market.

Blacky Dalton
17-Oct-2008, 07:27
The article I referred to is on the View Camera web site in the Subscriber Section. I don’t want to give away the entire article, but the target criteria that Gordon lists are as follows:

1. Full ISO speed
2. Straight line gamma curve
3. Minimal general fog and fog stain
4. Controlled image stain
5. Full contrast potential for platinum and other alternative systems
6. Rapid development
7. Any processing method including stainless steel hangers and JOBO

If he has met all of these, and I have no doubt that he would not, otherwise why release it, I think this would be of great interest to those that are pyro users? I know I am interested in more information.

B. Dalton

Kirk Gittings
17-Oct-2008, 07:41
Gordon has been testing this formula for a few years. I had the opportunity to talk with him about it at his home and see his tests a couple of years ago. The results were very impressive and I think people will be amazed.

Brian Ellis
17-Oct-2008, 07:53
When I tested PMK over a period of a couple months and concluded that it did nothing any other developer couldn't do I was told that I was wrong, that PMK was the greatest developer ever invented, so good it would virtually make the photographs for you without the need for a camera. So I don't see how it could possibly be improved upon.

David Luttmann
17-Oct-2008, 08:23
I know very little other than what I have heard, mostly as rumor. In the article Gordon says, “Despite this success (PMK), I have wanted for some years to develop a formula with less overall stain for the faster films favored by the ULF group and alternative process printers.” It is also suppose to yield full rated film speed.

I had heard that the new formula is designed to yield near zero base stain. I had also heard that it should be good for those wanting to use HP5+ for alternative process. I am interested just because I was told that Gordon was very excited about the ‘look’ of his silver prints from Max Pyro negatives.

The article, slated for the Nov/Dec issue of VC Magazine, says the developer should be available from B&S by the time of publication. So I would guess sometime near December we should be able to order some to try.

B. Dalton

How does it appear to work with slower films like FP4 and Delta 100/TMX 100?

Don Hutton
17-Oct-2008, 08:34
The article I referred to is on the View Camera web site in the Subscriber Section. I don’t want to give away the entire article, but the target criteria that Gordon lists are as follows:

1. Full ISO speed
2. Straight line gamma curve
3. Minimal general fog and fog stain
4. Controlled image stain
5. Full contrast potential for platinum and other alternative systems
6. Rapid development
7. Any processing method including stainless steel hangers and JOBO

If he has met all of these, and I have no doubt that he would not, otherwise why release it, I think this would be of great interest to those that are pyro users? I know I am interested in more information.

B. Dalton
Sounds like pyrocat HD which has been around for quite a bit now.

Michael Kadillak
17-Oct-2008, 08:54
Is Gordon contact printing and/or working with alt processes with his new work? Spending time working on a new developer to assist alt process users and "control" stain when this variable was the rational for its marvelous performance in PMK if one is not "in the mix" is nice of him but at the same time somewhat confusing. I learned a long time ago at the first VC conference that PMK was not the optimal developer for contact printing so maybe that is the incentive.

I know very few ardent alt process photographers that use HP5 for obvious reasons that do not need to be replicated here.

It will be interesting to see the formulation.

Cheers!

Keith Tapscott.
17-Oct-2008, 11:44
This is just a guess, although I don`t personally use Pyro type developers. I suspect that Pyrogallol has been replaced with Pyrocathechin and Metol (Elon) has been replaced by Phenidone or a derivative, hence a higher speed yield and less stain. Perhaps "Kodalk" remains the accelerator.

Drew Wiley
17-Oct-2008, 12:34
This must be something intended for very long-scale contact processes like Pt, Pd, or
possibly Azo. Reducing the stain wouldn't make sense for ordinary silver printing. I've
tried Pyrocat and similar formulas but personally find them inferior to PMK for my own purposes. In fact, the only film I've tried that doesn't respond well to PMK is Tech Pan.
But I have developed new tweaks on the PMK premise. Perhaps the most unusual
involves printing from the pyro stain only, in other words, a conventional silver image wouldn't even be visible in the negative, only the yellow stain. Then I print this through a deep blue filter. The tonal scale has been magnificent in the print, but I've only gotten this odd developer to work with HP5+. Did Gordon mention which kind of prints he had in mind with his new developer?

Kirk Keyes
17-Oct-2008, 13:24
The stain from pyrogallol and pyrocatechol are an easy way to get more density for alt negs. (Pyrocatechol gives more UV absorbance than pyrogallol in a comparison I did of PMK and Pyrocat.)

So if it does not have any stain, why not just use XTOL?

David A. Goldfarb
17-Oct-2008, 13:41
I think the idea is to have maximum image stain and minimum background stain and full speed.

So is the formula published, or is this just being sold in liquid form from B&S?

Kirk Keyes
17-Oct-2008, 16:06
OK - I see it says "Controlled image stain".

chilihead
17-Oct-2008, 22:45
Actually Harold Leban"s Rollo Pyro still beats PMK in every way. Even Mr. Hutchings sensed that. And - you can try every Pyro (Rollo, Pmk, Max, ABC etc.) on the planet - if you don't know how to properly fix it after development you will be wandering the Halls of Inconsistency forever. It took me hundreds of sheets to figure out how, but now... ahhhhhhhhhhhh! But, I will, out of respect for G.H., give Max a try!

Kirk Keyes
17-Oct-2008, 23:17
if you don't know how to properly fix it after development you will be wandering the Halls of Inconsistency forever.

And...

Bjorn Nilsson
18-Oct-2008, 10:21
... if you don't know how to properly fix it after development you will be wandering the Halls of Inconsistency forever. It took me hundreds of sheets to figure out how, but now... ahhhhhhhhhhhh! ...

It seems like I've missed out on something of utter importance. Please shed some light on this matter before I'm totally lost in whereever forever...

//Björn

D. Bryant
18-Oct-2008, 11:24
- if you don't know how to properly fix it after development you will be wandering the Halls of Inconsistency forever.

Plain old acid fixer works fine with pyro developed negs.

Don Bryant

matthew blais
18-Oct-2008, 11:46
"Max Pyro"...now there's a name for a new comic strip or cool retro T-shirt

domenico Foschi
18-Oct-2008, 11:55
"Max Pyro"...now there's a name for a new comic strip or cool retro T-shirt

Porno for Pyro= long scale porno?

Gary L. Quay
19-Oct-2008, 00:18
Porno for Pyro= long scale porno?

A wee bit off topic, and off rocker. Damn pyromaniacs!

--Gary

Harald Leban
21-Oct-2008, 03:29
Actually Harold Leban"s Rollo Pyro still beats PMK in every way. Even Mr. Hutchings sensed that.

When creating the original ABC+Pyro formula (renamed by B&S to RolloPyro) I based on PMK that I still find as the best Pyro formula for projection negatives. But when I used it on HP5+ film (8x10" on Jobo) for platinum negatives I found some characteristics too weak for my taste. So I did some minor modifications in rising the concentration and adding ascorbic acid for its hyperadditive effect.
What I got that way was better film speed, better densities, better aerial-oxidation stability and better staining with minimum base fog. Now I found it better working for my purpose. I probably made a mistake in renaming it to ABC+Pyro instead of keeping its origin and saying PMK+ or AdvancedPMK - which was my working title for it.

It seems if Mr. Hutchings packed similar characteristics into the new formula - we´ll see.
One who knows the ABC+/Rollo formula best is my dear friend Carl Weese who did the main job in testing and evaluating the formula - thank you Carl!

I´ve made some new innovations if someone is interested:

1. FerA.. a FerrousAscorbat film developer - it´s simple, sharp, straight and non poisonous.

2. Ferric-oxa-citrat..a new sensitizer for alternative ferric processes like platinum/palladium, kallitype, cyanotype, etc.. a chemical chimera of Ferric-oxalate and Ferric-citrate which keeps the good characteristics from both sides: speed, stability, solubility , d-max increase - it´s still in a testing phase but I´m curious if some of the alt-photo people want´s to give it a try (with a free sample).

Harald

just a few examples: http://www.faps.sk/f_index.php?idmember=7

Drew Wiley
21-Oct-2008, 13:29
HP5+ does have a few unusual characteristics related to pyro. The advantages of this
film include the "watercolor" grain effect and strong edge effect optimized by Pyro
staining. But to kick the film curve off the toe and obtain the wonderful expanded
midtones this film is capable of, the stain is going to build excessively, and the highlights might not reproduce optimally. I solved this problem in many cases simply
by resorting to unsharp masking, which I routinely do in color work, or by switching to
a film with a longer straight line. But it is still one of my favorite films for 8x10, so I'd
always be interested in a new tweak to simply printing, if in fact this applies to
enlargement work. Contact printers face a somewhat different scenario.

Ken Lee
21-Oct-2008, 13:50
"... just a few examples: http://www.faps.sk/f_index.php?idmember=7"

Which of those images, are made with your developer, and which are Pt/Pd prints ?

D. Bryant
21-Oct-2008, 17:37
But to kick the film curve off the toe and obtain the wonderful expanded
midtones this film is capable of, the stain is going to build excessively, and the highlights might not reproduce optimally.

A good reason to use Pyrocat-HD instead of PMK, IMO.

Don Bryant

CP Goerz
21-Oct-2008, 18:22
I try to use the slowest film I can get away as I get the shadow/midtone separation is already built into the film. Of course you have touchy highlights with slower film but thats when the Pyro does its magic and tames them nicely.

Harald Leban
22-Oct-2008, 02:29
".. http://www.faps.sk/f_index.php?idmember=7"

Which of those images, are made with your developer, and which are Pt/Pd prints ?

The b&w images are printed either in Pt/Pd or enlarged on silvergelatine paper. All of the negatives are developed in ABC+/Rollo Pyro.....but I´m afraid one cannot imagine this in the web...
Harald

Drew Wiley
22-Oct-2008, 09:14
I did try Pyrocat HD once but didn't like either the grain structure of the general
tonal range of the print as well as PMK. Obviously, this is quite subjective and I know
several people who prefer Pyrocat. A lot might have to do with the quality of the
enlarger light. For silver gelatin printing I typically use a very powerful Aristo head with
blue-green light, which seemingly responds better to the yellowish stain of PMK than
to the brownish stain of Pyrocat. Someday I'll have to compare results using one of
my color enlargers.

willrea
24-Nov-2008, 23:32
It's now available (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=1015&cat=154&page=1).

Jim Graves
25-Nov-2008, 01:28
They sure don't provide much detail ... is it in liquid form or dry? ... an A and B or just one solution? Can you use it as a 2 bath or just 1? Does it work well in rotation development? How does it differ from PMK?

willrea
25-Nov-2008, 09:16
Looks like its dry, enough to make 10 liters. It supposed works with any development method. As for your other specific questions, I havn't found a copy of View Camera to read the article on it.