Stability Comparison btw Chamonix and Metal Fields?

[paul08]

Hi all. I've been a long-time occasional reader here at LFPF but only recently registered. I'm currently working on a project where access is sometimes an issue (this means I'm carrying my camera and tripod a lot), and decided a couple of months ago to pick up a second field camera so that I can use all my lenses (I've had a nice Pressman D since the mid-'90s but the lensboards won't allow me to use my 210mm, and the Nikkor M 300mm really pushes the limits of the extension). I got a Toyo 45A off Ebay but it arrived with a trashed bellows (the seller, who seems to deal in a lot of LF gear said it had seen "very little use".... ?!). So now I'm stuck in Paypal dispute limbo and back to square one on the field camera (going forward on the work with my monorail, though).

I've read (mostly here) that the Chamonix 4x5 is more stable than the average wood field camera, and was wondering if anyone could compare its stability in real-world use with the Toyo or metal Wista. The wood fields I've used (borrowed or just checked out--inclu. a Zone VI and a Shen Hao) have seemed a bit delicate when extended. Is the Chamonix a lot better with the carbon base? I need to work in the wind and rain sometimes, so stability is a big plus. Thanks in advance,
Paul

[Gem Singer]

You need a lightweight portable camera that is stable at longer bellows extensions and can withstand rainy and windy conditions.

Check out the Canham DLC45 and the 4X5 Walker Titan. Although they are not wooden cameras, they are compact and light weight. Either one should fit your needs.

Call Jim, at Midwest. He can usually locate a good useable pre-owned camera at a reasonable price.

Last resort--check the eBay listings.

[Len Middleton]

Paul,

At 300mm, you are looking at some long lenses for 4x5, so you have essentially two issues: Getting a field camera with a long enough bellows for the length of lenses and how close you want to focus; and how stable it will be at full extension.

With your monorail, what is the typically maximum extension you use?

I use a Technika V and at it full extension (16") it is relatively solid. With a 355mm Repro-Claron (relatively light and compact lens), I can focus to about 10 feet.

The limitation with the Technika are: the size (diameter) of lens that will mount on the boards; the use of short lenses (less than 75mm); the weight (stability has a price in terms of weight); and of course the cost of the camera itself. I do not know whether prices are going up or down on them, but typically more used than a similar wood field.

Hope that is helpful,

Len

[paul08]

Thanks for the replies. I'm familiar with the Canham, and have seen pictures of the Walker (never handled one, though). I'm a little hesitant to spend too much for what may be 10-20% of this body of work, supplementing my Cambo (it's mostly architectural in nature, and I'm usually focusing in the 50-100' range, although a couple of detail pictures have been closer). In addition to the Toyos, I've noticed a few Horseman HDs on the 'bay for pretty low prices, but the bellows aren't long enough for the 300mm. I've emailed with Jim Andraki in the past but don't see anything other than a Toyo A listed at the moment. I will probably have to wait and see how this Ebay fiasco turns out (now the seller's wife says he wants me to return the camera before they will issue a refund, but given what I've been through with him (he claimed to have shipped the camera 2 1/2 weeks prior to the actual recorded shipping date on the EMS form, in addition to the mis-description of condition), I'm hesitant to trust him).

One nice thing about the Chamonix is it's cost new is in the ballpark for a used Toyo or older Wista, and I've got some lensboards laying around from my old Tech IV (which I really wish I'd kept, right about now! :o ). I would still like to hear from someone with both a metal-bodied field camera and the Chamonix, since it's price and movement capabilities make it attractive, at least on paper.

[Ed Richards]

Cannot help you with the Chamonix, but I did wrestle the stablity question a while back. One thing I thought about is that if you are carrying an umbrella to deal with wind and rain, then stability is less of an issue, and if you are not, then even a monrail will blow around.

[paul08]

Thanks, Ed. I do occasionally use a beach umbrella, although more often just a plastic bag.


Cannot help you with the Chamonix, but I did wrestle the stablity question a while back. One thing I thought about is that if you are carrying an umbrella to deal with wind and rain, then stability is less of an issue, and if you are not, then even a monrail will blow around.

[Bob Salomon]

Paul,

...the use of short lenses (less than 75mm);
Len

It is also incorrect.

With the Auxiliary Wide Angle Focus Device (now discontinued) or the current 65 to 55mm lenses on wide angle lensboards with the required helical mount the Technika IV, V and Master can use lenses down to 55mm. On the Technika 2000 (discontinued) and the current 3000 you can use lenses as short as 35mm with no accesorry required other then a lens board.

[Drew Wiley]

Haven't handled a Chamonix yet, but my little Ebony RW45 is rock solid even with a
360A. Chamonix appears to have a little less extension and might need an extended
board for something that long at closer range. With any field 4X5 beware of #3 shutters and the heavy lenses that typically accompany them. None of these folding
cameras seem as stable as my old Sinar monorail, however, which easily handled much
longer lenses, as well as relatively heavy ones, like a 120 Super Angulon with center filter attached. The Toyo 45 is just too limited for my own use, and the metal Canham
relies on CNC cut aluminum parts which aren't going to take the wear and tear like the
die-cast past on venerable cameras like the Sinar and Technika.

[Len Middleton]

Bob,

You of course know the product line better than I.

However, my comment was it was an "issue" for the Technika (particularly my "V"), not that it was not possible (semantics?).

I was aware of the "Auxiliary Wide Angle Focus Device", which even on the used market costs close to the amount for a lens to mount into it. I was not aware of using of the helical focus mounts for that use, and thank you for that information.

In the past when I had a Technika IV and the 75mm was too far into the body to perform enough front rise, I purchased a Karden Super Color with a Technika board adapter to solve that problem. If I had those requirements again, it would seem to be a suitable option again given the price of used 4x5 Kardens.

I have really enjoyed my Technika's over the years, but I do understand and accept that like all designs there are limitations and compromises, including potentially cost benefit issues.

I stand by my comments, but Bob does provide potential solutions to address those issues I identified.

Thank you for the additional information and clarification,

Len

[Gem Singer]

Keith Canham uses black anodized aircraft aluminum in the construction of his cameras. It is light weight and hardened to increase it's strength. Cast aluminum is heavier and brittle. I've seen a few monorail cameras where the cast aluminum parts cracked under stress.

He also uses Delrin washers between the metal parts where they are placed under stress. Example: the "T" knobs for tightening front rise and rear tilt. If those washers fail, they can easily be replaced.

Emailing Jim, at Midwest is an exercise in futility. Getting him on the phone takes a bit of persistence. However, it's worthwhile. Jim doesn't always list an item for sale on the website. When he knows that you're a serious buyer and knows your price range, he makes a few phone calls and usually comes up with just what you need.

I realize that price is an issue here, but just might be worthwhile to spend a little more and avoid another eBay hassle.

[Kevin Crisp]

Jim at Midwest has always answered email for me in less than 24 hours. And I've never had a problem getting him on the phone.

[Jeff Bannow]

I used my Chamonix 4x5 in heavy winds over the summer, while shooting on the South Dakota praries. It held up to the wind exceptionally well. All of my negatives look tack sharp.

As long as the wind wasn't knocking over the tripod, everything held tight.

[BarryS]

The Chamonix is extremely rigid when it's locked down. If you're used to seeing the small play and looseness in other field cameras--the Chamonix doesn't have it. There's no looseness or wobble--even at full extension. My Deardorff works fine, but it's not in the same class as the Chamonix as far as complete rigidity. I also have a Burke and James monorail, which is a complete beast, but not even remotely comparable to the Chamonix.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

Construction and design is more important in maintaining stability than material selection.

BTW, my nice Canham DLC 45 is available for sale and listed in classifieds here. Very Stable!

[Kirk Gittings]

I use a Phillips, which is what the Chamonix seems to be based on and I have owned or used many many others. I have played around some with a Chamonix and it is similar. I have to say that the Phillips is the most rigid 4x5 I have ever owned or used, period, including rail cameras and certainly far more rigid than any folding field cameras I have owned. Particularly the front standard design, which has been the weak point in my experience. The Phillips set a new standard for front standard stability on a lightweight folding field camera and the Chamonix is virtually identical.

[Harley Goldman]

I used to have an Arca F-Line Classic and now have the Chamonix. I use a Fujinon 450mm on a two section Ebony tophat board. This might be sacrilege, but I found the Chamonix to be more rigid than the Arca. I have used a 300mm on the Cham and the extension is a bit less than the 450mm with the tophat board, just as a point of reference on extensions.

[Drew Wiley]

My 8X10 early Phillips is very stable, but I have had failure with some of the minor
aluminum hardware; but this was easy for me to replace. Anodized aluminum is surface-hardened only a few microns deep, so can develop stress fatigue over the long
run. Canham uses it because it can be cost-effectively run on a CNC setup. Quality
die-casting, like on a Technika, are dramatically more expensive, but will hold up better
over time. There is a world of difference for example, between machined die-cast brass
and melt-cast brass parts, which I have seen on cheap cameras; between die-cast and conventional aluminum; between delrin and ordinary nylon. Stainless steel if great is you can cope with the weight; but the machined titanium hardware on my Ebony camera is much lighter, and superior to aluminum. The bed of the Phillips is a custom laminate of epoxy-soaked cherry wood overlaid with fiberglass. And it appears that the Chamonix is using a laminate incorporating carbon fiber. It's great to see more manufacturers thinking outside the box and attempting new things.

[h2oman]

I also have had good luck e-mailing Jim Andracki. He does take a weekday off, I'm thinking its Tuesday.

[George Hofmann]

I've read (mostly here) that the Chamonix 4x5 is more stable than the average wood field camera, and was wondering if anyone could compare its stability in real-world use with the Toyo or metal Wista. The wood fields I've used (borrowed or just checked out--inclu. a Zone VI and a Shen Hao) have seemed a bit delicate when extended. Is the Chamonix a lot better with the carbon base? I need to work in the wind and rain sometimes, so stability is a big plus. Thanks in advance,
Paul

Paul:
I had a Toyo 45A which I sold on eBay (but not to you!). It was a fine camera and built like a brick outhouse. I replaced it with a Chamonix 45. I have to say that the Chamonix was really a pleasant surprise not only in the fit and finish, but in the stability area. I think it is due to the CF baseplate which is very stiff yet light weight. I am very happy with the switch that I made. The new camera is half the weight, has better movements, looks terrific and looks like it will last a long time. My only concern with it might be the bellows which doesn't look to be as durable as the Toyo bellows.

George

[Alan Rabe]

How much wood does a camera have to have to be classified as wood vs. metal.
The Chamonix is virtually all metal except for the front and back frames. It's about 80% metal. All the parts that really affect stability are metal. So what is the criteria?

[Gem Singer]

Sometimes, Jim has three, or four customers asking for his attention at the same time, both in the store and on the phone. He receives thirty to forty Emails a day and doesn't always have time to answer all of them completely. By the way, he usually takes Thursday off.

The criteria for differentiating between a wood or a metal folding camera is the type of material the box and the focusing rails are fabricated from. Almost all folding cameras are designed with some sort of metal struts to support the front and rear standards.

My Canham Traditional cameras have metal focusing rails and a wood box.
Keith Canham describes them as metal cameras that fold into a wood box. My Wista, Wisner, Tachihara, and Ebony cameras had wood rails and wood boxes. They were classified as wood flat bed folding field cameras. My Toyo AII was fabricated entirely of metal, same as the Linhof Tech. They are classified as metal flat bed folding field cameras.

[paul08]

Wow, thanks for all the great information! I spoke with Hugo Zhang recently and may go ahead and order a Chamonix for January. It sounds like a great, flexible camera. I've gone ahead with my work using my Cambo, which of course is fine, I just wish it easily folder smaller (I know I can fold it flat by removing the bellows, but that makes set-up longer). I'm looking around for a used Calumet Lightweight Case, if anyone has one. It will make my gear 10 lbs lighter. When I have to walk a great distance, my Busch Pressman will do for now. With 15mm shift each way, 40mm rise, a drop-bed and just over 300mm of bellows (that's stretched out all the way.... ;) ), its a pretty capable little camera, and smaller than the Toyo or Wista (great for a messenger bag). I'm still unhappy about the Toyo I got from Japan, and the seller hasn't answered my last two emails, but I have my fingers crossed that I'll get my money back.

Regards,
Paul