New Shen Hao PTB 45

[Aender Brepsom]

I have seen a new Shen Hao 4x5 wooden field camera at the Photokina yesterday. It is a brand new model, that is neither on their website nor in the leaflet they had at their booth, but it looks exactly like the Chamonix 45N-1. The price is 450 EUR.
There is a picture of it at the Badger Graphic website:
http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2766

The 6x17 non-folding view camera TFC617 A and B look like the Ebony version, but at 999 EUR with the 6x17 back, it is a bit ... less expensive. Looks very nice too.
Unfortunately (or luckily for my wallet), they did not sell any camera at the show.

[Andrey Donchev]

It looks like a particular Chinese camera maker was intellectually robed! Amazing! :D

[Michael Graves]

It looks like a particular Chinese camera maker was intellectually robed! Amazing! :D

But they were robbed by another Chinese company, so there was honor involved.

[Frank Petronio]

Haha that's justice since they all used slightly modified Phillips' designs. That lightweight model looks like a winner.

[Nick_3536]

Isn't the 4x5 just a budget version of the FCL? Other then format and colour is anything major different? Bellows are of course shorter.

[BarryS]

Isn't the 4x5 just a budget version of the FCL? Other then format and colour is anything major different? Bellows are of course shorter.

The PTB 45 is clearly a very detailed knockoff of the Chamonix 45N-1 with the exception of wood instead of carbon fiber as the base. The Chamonix line is based on the design of Dick Phillips cameras, but I wouldn't consider them straight knockoffs. There are still a lot of differences in the designs. The FCL810A is also based on the Phillips designs, but again, I wouldn't call it a knockoff because of differences in the design.

The PTB 45 is obviously the result of Shen Hao copying every single design element of the 45N-1. Each piece of hardware looks like it was copied, as was each wooden frame element. You can see a lot of differences between the PTB 45 and the FCL810A.

I'm sure Shen Hao felt like their thunder was stolen with the Chamonix 45N-1. The Chamonix had to be seriously eating into the sales of the Shen Hao and their response was to almost exactly copy it. I assume they left out the carbon fiber base in order to come in at a lower price point.

[Steven Barall]

I find all of this hysterical. My business friends here in NYC all say that you should never hire a Chinese immigrant to work for you because in six months they will leave and open an identical business right across the street, that is if the space next door isn't available.

Before some of you start getting righteously indignant let me add that the first time I heard of that was from two Chinese American friends who own a nice successful business here in NY and who only hire Japanese people for that reason.

Have a nice day.

[Anupam]

The PTB 45 is clearly a very detailed knockoff of the Chamonix 45N-1 with the exception of wood instead of carbon fiber as the base. The Chamonix line is based on the design of Dick Phillips cameras, but I wouldn't consider them straight knockoffs. There are still a lot of differences in the designs. The FCL810A is also based on the Phillips designs, but again, I wouldn't call it a knockoff because of differences in the design.

This was my understanding as well.


I assume they left out the carbon fiber base in order to come in at a lower price point.

Obviously we need to wait for actual reviews, but this seems like it might significantly affect the solidity of the camera.

[BradS]

The Chinese see this kind of imitation as a compliment to the originators. We see it as criminal behavior.

I used to work for Sandisk. The common joke was that we sold exactly on card in China. Every day we we shown yet another elegant knock-off....they copy every detail right down to the label with the SanDisk name on it!

Good luck with you Chinese cameras. I'll not be buying one. Thank you very much.

[Gordon Moat]

Barely any different than the Chamonix. It would not surprise me if the metal bits came from the same source in China. I currently have an HZX45A-II, which happily meets and exceeds my current needs and expectations. That earlier model was said by some to be a rip-off of an Ebony.

I will leave it up to the armchair attorneys to figure this all out. On a good note, it does seem that we now have even more selection and competition in the large format market. I think that speaks well of how large format is doing, in a strange sort of way.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[GPS]

The Chinese moral to the power of 2 or licensed production? Must be already in the maternal milk, I suppose ;-)

[jb7]

Am I seeing a description of cultural differences, or something more sinister?
From the "some of my best friends are..."
to "the Chinese moral", and "maternal milk'
Thinly disguised comments, and not describing cameras.

This to describe people from a society barely out of feudalism,
a society with very limited space and resources,
an extremely competitive society, in general, very low paid-
and admittedly, a society I know very little about-

While there are obvious similarities visible between the pictures of the cameras presented,
perhaps it has as much to do with convergence of design principles as anything else,
considering the properties of the materials being used-

The use of carbon fiber is an obvious difference between the two,
and may very well explain the reason for the reduced price of this one-
and as has been mentioned, the potential for reduced performance.
But the shen, from this little picture, does not look as well considered or made as the cham-
admittedly, that's only from other pictures I've seen;
I haven't had direct experience of either.

4x5 is an obvious standard, the use of timber and other materials another-
surely we can expect the forms to be similar between folders these days?
We're not looking at the re-invention of the wheel, are we?
Or even a good thumbscrew-

I know there are other ethos at work-
pictures of Mr Ritter's cameras look like they're from a different mould, so to speak-
but manufacture of this equipment is still very much a cottage industry- in my uninformed opinion-

Somebody mentioned that this competition will be good for users of LF-
I can't disagree-
I look forward to the head to head comparison-

joseph

[Rafael Garcia]

So what!?

Not anybodys business but the makers of the cameras. They may be fine with it and I don't care.

[Geary Lyons]

Good luck with you Chinese cameras. I'll not be buying one. Thank you very much.

What? You mean that the Can Ham 57 was not Chinese? You never mentioned that! ;)
Cheers,
Geary

[Dave Wooten]

The cameras will probably soon be available at Walmart once the wally boys zero in on the large format Revival that is sweeping the country. Once mass produced they should sell off the shelf in your home town for around 39.95 tops at present US dollar rate. :)

Personally for use here in the desert I'd much rather have the wooden base and not the metal.

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

It's nice to know that the thieves have been robbed!

[C. D. Keth]

Obviously we need to wait for actual reviews, but this seems like it might significantly affect the solidity of the camera.

Maybe, but if it's as solid as the other Shen-Hao design it's all good. They're not the lightest field cameras but they are solid.

[Terence McDonagh]

For how small a 4x5 bed is, the difference in rigidity is probably negligible. Obviously wood beds have been used for 100+ years without much complaint.

Now for 11x14, the dimensional stability would be another matter, if it was a square bed. Interestingly, Chamonix doesn't use the carbon fiber base for cameras larger than 4x5 and 5x7/8, at least from all the photos I've seen.

[Brian Ellis]

Every wood LF field camera on the market today has copied most of its design elements from earlier cameras. The first one was designed in 1890 or thereabouts, everything since then has basically been a copy of that one with a few refinements here and there.

[Michael Jones]

90 years ago Cadillac's advertising was based upon the slogan: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Mike

[Don Hutton]

The cameras will probably soon be available at Walmart once the wally boys zero in on the large format Revival that is sweeping the country. Once mass produced they should sell off the shelf in your home town for around 39.95 tops at present US dollar rate. :)

Personally for use here in the desert I'd much rather have the wooden base and not the metal.The Chamonix 4x5 has a carbon fiber base - not metal. Tough to choose a better material given it's excellent dimensional stability in most conditions.

[Don Hutton]

For how small a 4x5 bed is, the difference in rigidity is probably negligible. Obviously wood beds have been used for 100+ years without much complaint.

Now for 11x14, the dimensional stability would be another matter, if it was a square bed. Interestingly, Chamonix doesn't use the carbon fiber base for cameras larger than 4x5 and 5x7/8, at least from all the photos I've seen.The 8x10 has a base which is wood onto a carbon fiber assembly.

[Dave Wooten]

The Chamonix 4x5 has a carbon fiber base - not metal. Tough to choose a better material given it's excellent dimensional stability in most conditions.

In that case i d rather have the carbon fiber, I thought it was metal.:)

[Steve Daniels]

Actually, the HZX45A is one of Shen Hao's few original designs. Other models are very similar to Ebony cameras.

[Songyun]

Actually, the HZX45A is one of Shen Hao's few original designs. Other models are very similar to Ebony cameras.

That is correct! In fact that model was developed by Mr. Kwok, who later left shenhao. Ever since then, almost every shenhao's model is a direct copy of some camera. The non folding, is a copy of ebony (45sw?), a couple of 57 and 810 is copy of ebony sv, which is not sold by Badger, 410, 512, and the new 617 is a copy of ebony too.

In fact, the last two cameras before this PTB, Shenhao did modify the design a little bit, it seems that these cameras didn't sell well. Shenhao came back to the easy way.

[frednewman]

We have a pre-production Shen-Hao PTB 4X5 Light Weight and you can see photos of it here (http://viewcamerastore.com/pub/shen-hao/).

Final production model should be available in about 45~60 days and should be substantially the same. Most likely additions are bubble levels and indents.

Camera weights 3 lbs. (1.3kg) and feels very sturdy. Bellows draw is 375mm. Workmanship is excellent. We are now taking pre-orders. Cost is $695USD plus shipping.

Fred Newman

The View Camera Store

[Kuzano]

That is correct! In fact that model was developed by Mr. Kwok, who later left shenhao.

A few years ago, I saw a camera posted on eBay that had a brass tag denoting it as a KWOK. It looked very nice and well built.

However, I could not turn up any information on the name, and I spent quite a bit of time on the internet looking.

Looks like I should have not passed on it, because I eventually purchased a Shen Hao with the back rise, etc. (the II model?). The Shen Hao proved to be a bit heavy for what I wanted and sold it. This new Shen Hao light model looks interesting. The Shen I bought was well built and quite attractive.