shooting a black car with Provia 100, how to meter?

[Daniel_Buck]

Ok, I admit I don't shoot color very often, I'm going out to the desert with some friends next week, for some shots of their cars on a dry lake bed. At any rate, I want to shoot color 4x5. Most of the cars will be black, and the lake bed is a light color, fairly bright when the sun is up in the sky. I've been out there and shot digital quite a few times, and never had problems with exposures, the blacks on the car and the bright ground were all within exposure range. I'll probably shoot at both times of day, when the sun is higher up, and then again when it's closer to sunset. The good thing though, is that the cars will be very dirty/dusty, so that will probably make the black cars not as black as they are when they are clean.

My question relates to how to expose the Provia 100. I am assuming that it's latitude is going to be roughly equivalent to my digital, if not a stop or so less? Should I meter for my darks, and lights, and just hope for the best? Or if I find the contrast range very broad, does provia work well over exposing and under developing? For Provia, does it hold more detail in the shadows versus the highlights? Or should I air on the side of over exposing to make sure the darks have detail? I really hate bracketing my exposures, but I may end up doing that if the contrast range is very broad. I've never had any problems metering B&W film, but the B&W seems to handle any contrast range I throw at it.

Most likely, the film is not going to be printed traditionally, it will be scanned and printed digitally, if it gets printed at all. I'm guessing that it's probably going to stay in slide-form, and just viewed back-lit.

Thanks for any tips! I've had this box of Provia sitting in the fridge waiting for a good time to use it, and I think next week will be the time :)

[Gordon Moat]

If you have an incident meter (like a handheld meter), then take a reading of the light falling upon the car, with the meter head pointed back at the lens. Whenever the light changes a bit, then take another reading. If you are worried about highlights blowing, then take another reading with the meter head pointed upwards, and compare that to your previous reading, then decide whether 1/3 stop less exposure, or more, is needed to compensate. When in doubt, bracket slightly. If you have an instant film back, then take a few test exposures to be certain of your settings.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[Daniel_Buck]

I've only got a spot meter. I'm not to worried about changing light, the light is usually pretty constant out there (not many clouds). My main consern is the balance between detail in the darks, and detail in the lights. Does provia handle under exposure better than over exposure? I mean, at what point do darks get completely blacked out, and highlights get go completely white? I usually meter with the zone system, should I try and keep all my values of importance between Zone 3 and zone 8? Or can Provia handle a bit more, and in which direction?

[Walter Calahan]

Get an 18% gray card, place it in the same light as the car, and read the card with your spot meter. http://www.filmtools.com/del118plasgr.html

I carry both a spot meter, and an incident. in my kit.

[Gordon Moat]

Light time I had to spot meter with transparency film was when I was using Astia 100F. I don't know how much different Provia 100F responds, though perhaps the same method would work. Take a reading at your brightest area in the scene, then take a reading in the darkest area of your scene. Figure out the 1/3 point and the 1/2 way point. Those are the two settings I used to bracket. I shot one Polaroid to confirm the 1/3 stop less than the brightest area, and that worked nicely.

Other than that, I think Walter makes a good point in suggesting a grey card, since you could largely avoid bracketing. There are times when an incident meter is quite useful, and when using transparency film, it is one of those times. Barring that, transparency film usage is a good reason to carry an instant film back to check exposure settings. The most technically accurate setting will not always create the most dramatic image with transparency films.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[Ash]

Always carry a grey card, they are cheap and a life-saver. However in most situations an incident meter reading is much quicker and just as effective.

[Daniel_Buck]

Thanks for all the replies :-)

I do have a question though, how will a gray card help me if I have a black car? I mean, I'm not really sure at what point on my film dark values will turn to mud? I've never used a gray card.

I guess what I'm really looking for, is the useful range (in stops or zones?) of Provia? And if my scene requires more range than that, should I over expose and under develop? or does color film not respond as well to this type of contrast enhancement like B&W film does? And at what point I can expect darks and highlights to disappear. I know the range that I get useful results when I'm shooting B&W, but I'm not familier with how color film responds in dark details and highlights. I've shot black cars many times before, but never with color film.

[Walter Calahan]

You don't shoot the Zone System for color transparency film!

For B&W neg, yes you want to expose for the shadow detail. For transparency film you expose for the highlights and let the shadow fall were it may (or light the crap out of it).

If you put the 18% gray card in the same light as the car, then you are getting the correct exposure for that scene regardless of the tone of the car.

That's why we all use incident meters with color film.

[Daniel_Buck]

Hm... that may take some getting used to, metering off of a card. I'll take your advice though, and give it a try :-)

I guess what I'm not understanding is, if I use a grey card, then I don't really know if I have my dark car light enough to still have detail? (I may be under-estimating the range of the film, hopefully I am) I suppose this is where I need to bracket then? Or take an educated guess that I may need to bump the exposure up a bit to compensate for the dark subject? Sorry if I'm not understanding it completely, I've never shot like this before, I've just been spot metering.

[Keith S. Walklet]

If you are accustomed to using a spot meter, then it should be fairly straight-forward with averaging.

Provia handles high contrast situations better than Velvia, but really only has about 4-1/2 stops of latitude. If your scene brightness range (darkest shadow with detail and brightest highlight with detail) falls within those 4-1/2 stops, you're set, otherwise you'll need to make sacrifices somewhere, or use other means to either eliminate the highlights (such as a graduated neutral density filter to knock down the higher values of sky), or provide additional light to open up the shadows (with reflectors or strobes).

But, with transparency film, you'll be most concerned about not blowing out your highlights. The shadows might hold some detail that can be brought out with a good scan and printing technique, but once the highlights are gone, they are gone.

So metering the highlights accurately and letting the shadows fall where they will is the strategy to use when there is too much contrast.

I typically bracket high and low by 1/3 of a stop when using my Pentax 67. For the 4x5, I shoot Quikloads and run three through the camera at the same shutter and aperture, but then send them in for processing one at a time (twin checked) to evaluate my results. If the first frame is spot on, the other two get the same processing. If it is off, I adjust my processing instructions for the second frame. If it looks good, the third gets the same processing.

I routinely push my Provia two stops to gain a little speed with my slow lenses, and there is no obvious change to the look of the film. When I have pulled it (I blew the exposure and had to pull it

[Mike Boden]

I suggest that you first do some testing to find out the exposure range of the film. Your results should tell you how many stops you have to work with.

After this, spot meter the gray card in the same light as the car and make this your base exposure. Then take a spot reading of the black car and compare this to your first reading. If this falls within your exposure range that you discovered in your earlier testing(remember that the gray card reading is in the middle of the range), expose as is. If not, then you'll have to adjust your exposure or provide more light. Of course, if you increase your exposure, you might blow out your highlights. That means you'll have to provide more light or switch to a different film with more latitude.

Is there any particular reason you don't want to use color neg?

[Daniel_Buck]

If you are accustomed to using a spot meter, then it should be fairly straight-forward with averaging.

Provia handles high contrast situations better than Velvia, but really only has about 4-1/2 stops of latitude. If your scene brightness range (darkest shadow with detail and brightest highlight with detail) falls within those 4-1/2 stops, you're set, otherwise you'll need to make sacrifices somewhere, or use other means to either eliminate the highlights (such as a graduated neutral density filter to knock down the higher values of sky), or provide additional light to open up the shadows (with reflectors or strobes).

But, with transparency film, you'll be most concerned about not blowing out your highlights. The shadows might hold some detail that can be brought out with a good scan and printing technique, but once the highlights are gone, they are gone.

So metering the highlights accurately and letting the shadows fall where they will is the strategy to use when there is too much contrast.

I typically bracket high and low by 1/3 of a stop when using my Pentax 67. For the 4x5, I shoot Quikloads and run three through the camera at the same shutter and aperture, but then send them in for processing one at a time (twin checked) to evaluate my results. If the first frame is spot on, the other two get the same processing. If it is off, I adjust my processing instructions for the second frame. If it looks good, the third gets the same processing.

I routinely push my Provia two stops to gain a little speed with my slow lenses, and there is no obvious change to the look of the film. When I have pulled it (I blew the exposure and had to pull it

Thanks, that is info I was looking to find!



I suggest that you first do some testing to find out the exposure range of the film. Your results should tell you how many stops you have to work with.

After this, spot meter the gray card in the same light as the car and make this your base exposure. Then take a spot reading of the black car and compare this to your first reading. If this falls within your exposure range that you discovered in your earlier testing(remember that the gray card reading is in the middle of the range), expose as is. If not, then you'll have to adjust your exposure or provide more light. Of course, if you increase your exposure, you might blow out your highlights. That means you'll have to provide more light or switch to a different film with more latitude.

Is there any particular reason you don't want to use color neg?
thank you as well! As for shooting the provia instead of something negative, well, I want a slide that can be looked at :) I tried to get ahold of Astia, but at the time I couldn't (this was a while ago), so I got Provia instead (I was told that Astia had more range than Provia). I may pick up a box of color negative just incase the contrast range is to great to use the Provia. So that I at least have a good shot of the cars, even if they aren't a slide that can be viewed.

[Kuzano]

The price of the Grey Card (8X10) is probably the price of two sheets of your film. Get one and use it. Everybody is right about that. All meters are designed to read or convert an overall scene to 18% neutral grey (don't know if that's the right way to say it). But for color you want to expose to the overall scene and if you fill the light meter reflected opening with light bounced of the Grey Card, you have the right exposure. Substitutes for a grey card are the palm of your hand or a large area of green grass. But the Grey Card is recommended.

I bought my first grey card in the 60's and have never been without one when shooting.

[Kirk Gittings]

Having helped a friend of a friend who was a professional car shooter in Detroit, if he was using natural light (and always with 8x10 chrome, I don't remember which film) he always shot just before dawn and just after sunset. Instead of super hot spots reflected on the paint, you get the sky as a "softbox" effect which is very pleasing lowering the overall contrast. These were like half day setups with a crew of 20 per location and then shooting 20 8x10's in 5 minutes just after sunset or before sunrise.

[Daniel_Buck]

The price of the Grey Card (8X10) is probably the price of two sheets of your film. Get one and use it. Everybody is right about that. All meters are designed to read or convert an overall scene to 18% neutral grey (don't know if that's the right way to say it). But for color you want to expose to the overall scene and if you fill the light meter reflected opening with light bounced of the Grey Card, you have the right exposure. Substitutes for a grey card are the palm of your hand or a large area of green grass. But the Grey Card is recommended.

I bought my first grey card in the 60's and have never been without one when shooting.
I'll pick one up, thanks :)



Having helped a friend of a friend who was a professional car shooter in Detroit, if he was using natural light (and always with 8x10 chrome, I don't remember which film) he always shot just before dawn and just after sunset. Instead of super hot spots reflected on the paint, you get the sky as a "softbox" effect which is very pleasing lowering the overall contrast. These were like half day setups with a crew of 20 per location and then shooting 20 8x10's in 5 minutes just after sunset or before sunrise.
Thanks for the note Kirk :) I've shot my fare share of vehicles though (that's my main subject, at work and at play), and sunsets are my preference as well :) However, when I'm out in the desert next week, I'm going to do two sets, one when the sun is up, and one at sunset :) My question was more about the latitude of the film for the sun-up shots.

[Keith S. Walklet]

Glad to help Daniel. I noted that the last couple of lines of my post didn't make the cut, so I'll add that info now.

I forgot my light meter on one instance and had my 35mm, with different film, different lenses and filters on it. In short, I screwed up the translation of the meter reading from the 35mm to my 4x5 and ended up with severly overexposed Provia.

But, since I had three sheets, I had the opportunity to try and get something out it when the film was processed.

The first frame processed was blown out.

With instructions to pull the development two stops, I was rewarded a washed out version of the image.

I asked for a pull of three stops, which I understand is really beyond what should ever be done, as the response to the altered processing starts to fall off pretty quickly on the pull side. But the lab was kind enough to try it anyway, and I got the darkest of the three exposures, though the color was flat, there was very little contrast and on its own, it looked pretty lame.

But I scanned that transparency and was able to restore the contrast and color saturation so that the image looks completely normal. It was a lot of gymnastics to get the image, but it was a real pain the rear to get to the spot I made the image with all my gear, so I was relieved to have it work out in the end.