New Schneider lens at photokina!

[Arne Croell]

Schneider just showed a new LF lens on their web site, the "Apo-Tele-Xenar 11/350mm compact": http://www.schneider-kreuznach.com/news.htm

It has an image circle of 350mm, covering up to 8x10, and is intended as a "high-resolution, lightweight and affordable lens" for field cameras according to the German description
The name and description maybe somewhat at odds (in my opinion): despite the "Tele" designation, the description says it is an apochromatic, symmetric lens with 4 elements, best aperture f/16-f/22 - sounds like a close relative of the process lens family to me, like their former Apo-Artar? Note that the pic on their web site shows it with an optional extender tube for cameras with short bellows, if you click on their pictures link you get another one without extender as a zip file.
Despite the strange name, its quite exciting that they still bring us new lenses!

[Don Hutton]

What's exciting about that is a 360 in a Copal 1 shutter...

[BarryS]

You have to give Schneider credit for continuing to bring out new large format lenses. It can't be a true Tele with a symmetrical design--right? So Tele as in a longer focal length lens for 4x5 and 5x7.

[Arne Croell]

You have to give Schneider credit for continuing to bring out new large format lenses. It can't be a true Tele with a symmetrical design--right? So Tele as in a longer focal length lens for 4x5 and 5x7.
Yes - that is how I read it, "tele" just being the term for longer focal length, not the lens construction, like it is used in the 35mm world nowadays. They don't show the lens setup, but from the description (4 lenses, symmetric) and looks my guess is its a dialyte like the Apo-Ronar or Apo-Artar. This would be the 1st dialyte in production since the demise of the Apo-Ronar some years ago (and its multicoated!). Theoretically, it could also be a double Gauss like an Aristostigmat, but I doubt that.

[Brad Rippe]

Arne, Any idea on the price?
-Brad

[Arne Croell]

Arne, Any idea on the price?
-Brad
Sorry, Brad, the only hint is the "affordable" ("preiswert" in German) quote in their writeup, whatever that means.

[Arne Croell]

What's exciting about that is a 360 in a Copal 1 shutter...
I guess they did their market research - there is not much competition, including the competition from their own older lenses like the G-Claron - the 355mm G-Claron came in a size 3 shutter. The only real alternative I can think about is the long discontinued 360mm Fujinon-A, and it commands very high prices on the used market.

[Rick Olson]

Rough translation via the web:

The Apo Tele Xenar 11/350 Compact becomes fair the desires of ambitious amateur photographers for a particularly highly soluble, light and inexpensive objective for run ground cameras. It can for cameras of different offerers to including format 8" x 10" are used. The objective has a focal length of 350 mm with an opening of 11. The large picture circle of 350 mm makes the employment possible of the objective to 8" x 10" and/or 18cm x 24cm large size. The apochromatisch corrected objective, vierlinsig and completely symmetrically, shows already with full opening a very good imaging capacity and has with work screen 16 and/or 22 a homogeneous dissolution with very high contrast. For run ground cameras with short bellow excerpts up to approx. 320 mm a Tubus can be used as accessories, which shortens the plant measure of the objective around approx. 44 mm without mechanical Vignettierung and a bellow excerpt of 280 mm results in. The Tubus is back threaded of the catch size 3, so that it can be used into commercial objective plates with drilling for the catch size 3.

[Ole Tjugen]

An off-the cuff human translation from German to English through a Norwegian brain:

"The Apo-Tele-Xenar 11/350 was made to fulfill the wishes of ambitious amateur photographers for large format lens with exceptionally high resolution yet with low weight and an affordable price. It can be used with cameras from various suppliers up to and including 8x10" format.

The lens has a focal length of 350mm with a largest aperture of f:11. The generous 350mm image circle allows it to be used on 8x10" and 18x24cm large format cameras.

This apochromatically corrected lens, with its fully symmetrical four-element construction, gives very good image quality already at full aperture. At working aperture of f:16 to f:22 it has a very even resolution with exceptional contrast.

For field cameras with short bellows an accessory extension tube can be used. This extends the lens by 44mm without mechanical vignetting, and allows the lens to be used with a bellows extension of no more than 280mm.

The end of the tube has the same threads as a standard #3 shutter, allowing its use on lens boards drilled for standard #3 shutters."

[Skorzen]

hmmm looks like Schneider is trying to compete with their biggest competitor, their own old glass! I am curious to see just what "affordable" means though.

[Don Hutton]

I'd guess about $1800-$2000. We'll see!

[chilihead]

Fujinon "A" 360mm f9 - I think - is what Schneider was attempting to emulate -

[Struan Gray]

Kudos to Schneider. I'm guessing it's more of a Celor than a Ronar, but the coverage splits the difference between classic versions of either.

The Fujinon C 300 is probably its closest competitor.

[Arne Croell]

Kudos to Schneider. I'm guessing it's more of a Celor than a Ronar, but the coverage splits the difference between classic versions of either.

True, its about 53° coverage. The Celor and similar older dialytes for pictorial use (Unofocal) tended to have larger openings, though. I am glad they did not do that and kept the size 1 shutter! It is interesting to note that they now address the "amateur" photographer. Some years ago, their main customers for any LF lens would have been professional (studio) photographers, where weight and size are not that important. It would be great if they would expand the "high-resolution, lightweight, and affordable" concept to other focal lengths, like a 210mm or a 90mm. Maybe at photokina 2010 if this one sells well?

[Peter K]

It is interesting to note that they now address the "amateur" photographer.
Since some time Schneider addresses the "amateur" photographer. The Fine Art XXL lenses aren't a professional tool at all. Specially with the engraved name of the owner in gold.

[Arne Croell]

Since some time Schneider addresses the "amateur" photographer. The Fine Art XXL lenses aren't a professional tool at all. Specially with the engraved name of the owner in gold.

Certainly true. They were not really in the "affordable" price range, though ( or lightweight). Much more of a niche product. This one should have a much broader appeal to LF photographers.

[jnantz]

Certainly true. They were not really in the "affordable" price range, though.

... maybe the original press release
said "affordable" for the "fine art" series as well.

[Ernest Purdum]

One of my father's favorite expressions was "moderation in all things". I thought it applied nicely to the Kodak 203mm f7.7 Ektar. Now Schneider seems to be applying that philosophy to a longer focal length. I wish them well as I would wish any one well who brings out a new lens design now.

[butterflydream]

hmmm looks like Schneider is trying to compete with their biggest competitor, their own old glass! I am curious to see just what "affordable" means though.

Old Xenar has no apochromatic coating, right? Then the competitiveness of new Xenar will depend on the price. :)

By the way it's not sure if the 'Tubus' is optional accessory or included as standard. It's no more compact with this extender - 44mm extension and #3 lensboard. Most of field cameras wouldn't need Tubus.

[Peter K]

In an apochromatic lens three wave-lenghts meets at a common focus instead of the usual two. Lens coating reduces the reflexivity of glass-surfaces. This are two different things.

[Ole Tjugen]

Coatings aren't apochromatic, that's a lens design thingy. There are single-coated, multicoated and uncoated apochromatic lenses.

[butterflydream]

Oops, right. I was confused.

But still, is older Xenar apochromatic? (And other 3-Group 4-Element same design lenses)? I thought APO was a significant point for this lens, as the new emphasized it.

Thanks for correction.

[Arne Croell]

By the way it's not sure if the 'Tubus' is optional accessory or included as standard. It's no more compact with this extender - 44mm extension and #3 lensboard. Most of field cameras wouldn't need Tubus.
It is optional - the writeup mentions it as "accessory" ("Zubehör" in German). If you click on the link named "Fotos" under the text there is one image without it.

[Gordon Moat]

Looks interesting so far with Schneider and Linhof making announcements. Shame that Arca Swiss do not have a website. I checked the main Photokina website, but they are way behind Photoscala.de on updates. Rolleiflex now making a rotating 6x4.5 back for the Hy6, and a sliding back for the Xact2 monorail system to use MFDBs (Leaf, et al). I guess the best part is that some new gear is still being developed beyond the small camera realm.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[Skorzen]

Hmm I thought APO (at least in lens names) was mostly a marketing gimmick, from what I read the only real difference between a Sironar-n and APO Sironar-n is the white in for the APO lettering. I know APO has a real significance in optics but from what I understand most "modern" lenses should perform to APO standards whether they are marked that or not.

[Arne Croell]

I'd guess about $1800-$2000. We'll see!
I hope that is too high, at least for the street price. Lets see, the Apo-Tele-Xenar 400 Compact f/5.6 is listed for $2244.95 at Badger Graphic, but that comes in a more expensive Copal 3 and has much more glass in it. I think the new 350 f/11 should be substantially cheaper. Their smallest Apo-Symmar L in a size 1 shutter ist the 180mm f/5.6, for $1244,95 at Badger. That is the same shutter, but is a lens with six elements, including two cemented groups, so it should be more expensive than the new one in manufacturing (the new one is smaller, has only 4 elements and symmetry saves money in manufacturing). Of course they could have used expensive glass and want to recoup development costs. So my hope is that it will be close to the price of the 180 Apo-Symmar or less? End of crystal ball gazing and wishful thinking...

[Dan Fromm]

Oops, right. I was confused.

But still, is older Xenar apochromatic? (And other 3-Group 4-Element same design lenses)? I thought APO was a significant point for this lens, as the new emphasized it.

Thanks for correction.Ernie, it depends on the design.

There are apochromatic tessar types, for example., tessar type Apo Nikkors (some, not all, Apo Nikkors are dialytes), Zeiss Apo Tessars, some Industars, TTH Apotals and some TTH Copying Lenses (not all are tessar types), ... All slow lenses, f/9 or f/10 maximum aperture. To add to your confusion, Voigtlaender Skopars are tessar types but Apo Skopar process lenses are heliar types.

Marketing propaganda notwithstanding, I don't think there's an apochromatic tessar type faster than f/8. Old Xenars are faster than f/8, are not apochromats. AFAIK none of Schneider's apochromatic process lenses are tessar types, they're dialytes or dagor types or plasmat types.

[GPS]

Not that I would not be glad from one more lens on the market. But what is all the fuss about? The 50mm more focal length that separates it from the Fujinon 300 mm C with even larger (380mm) image circle? Perhaps. So what...

[Arne Croell]

I just found some more information on the German web site photoscala: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Apo-Tele-Xenar-Compact-11350-mm

It will be available starting end of March 2009, list price €762 ($1120 at todays exchange rate) and €820 with the additional extender tube. These prices include VAT (19%), so one can hope for even lower prices in the US.

[Arne Croell]

Not that I would not be glad from one more lens on the market. But what is all the fuss about? The 50mm more focal length that separates it from the Fujinon 300 mm C with even larger (380mm) image circle? Perhaps. So what...

Depends on the lens lineup. As an example, many people own the Fujinon-A 240mm (or the G-Claron or Germinar W 240mm) as a compact lens. 300mm as the next step is awfully close, whereas 350mm is a noticeable step, and not everybody can accomodate the 450mm for the next Fujinon-C.

[Really Big Cameras]

Friggin' copycats. I made one of these myself (well, with a LOT of help and the the considerable talents of the late Steve Grimes):

Mit Tubus:

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/images/toho8d.jpg

Ohne Tubus:

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/images/artar.jpg

Seriously, I'm thrilled with the introduction of this new lens. As Arne commented, there is a definite hole on the compact lens offerings between 300mm and 450mm - which is why I went to all the trouble (and expensive) of tracking down a 14" L.D. Artar, a new, old stock Compur No. 2 shutter and sent them to Steve to perform his magic.

When backpacking with the 4x5, I end up chosing between a lightweight four lens set of 90mm, 135mm, 200mm and 300mm or a three lens set of 90mm, 150mm, 240mm - when what I really want is 90mm, 150mm, 240mm, 360mm. This new offering from Schneider gives me another option. And given my Toho has a bit over 380mm of bellows extension, I'll be able to use it at normal landscape distances without the extension tube. The fact that it covers 8x10 (and 5x7 and 4x10) is a nice added bonus.

So, in addition to price, I'm curious about the weight (with, and without, the extension tube) and filter size.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)

[Arne Croell]

So, in addition to price, I'm curious about the weight (with, and without, the extension tube) and filter size.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)

Kerry, its 400g, 55mm flter size, and €762 (including 19%VAT, without extender), see http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Apo-Tele-Xenar-Compact-11350-mm

Arne

[Really Big Cameras]

Kerry, its 400g, 55mm flter size, and €762 (including 19%VAT, without extender), see http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Apo-Tele-Xenar-Compact-11350-mm

Arne

Arne,

Thanks for the specs and the link. I'm a little bummed by the weight, I was hoping for something closer to the 315g of my 14" L.D. Artar in Compur No. 2, but I'll still be real tempted to pick one up. At 400g, it's still only about 14 oz. - which makes it lighter than the 360mm Fujinon (465g) - the only other non-telephoto lens in this focal length range to come in a Copal No. 1 shutter.

On the price... do you know if that's the "list" price or the actual selling price. In the past, the actual selling prices for Schneider lenses has been a lot less than the "list" prices.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)

[Arne Croell]

On the price... do you know if that's the "list" price or the actual selling price. In the past, the actual selling prices for Schneider lenses has been a lot less than the "list" prices.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)
Its the German "list" price ("non-binding price recommendation" as its called here). It does include 19% VAT, so its about €640 without it. The street price might be a tad lower, but in Germany the difference between list and street price is usually not big.

[Per Madsen]

I just found some more information on the German web site photoscala: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Apo-Tele-Xenar-Compact-11350-mm

It will be available starting end of March 2009, list price €762 ($1120 at todays exchange rate) and €820 with the additional extender tube. These prices include VAT (19%), so one can hope for even lower prices in the US.


That is about the danish price for a Schneider 120 mm Apo-Symmar-L, if you compensate for the fact that the danish VAT is 25%.

It will be interresting to see the formula (celor or ronar type lens). >8->>

[Arne Croell]

I'm a little bummed by the weight, I was hoping for something closer to the 315g of my 14" L.D. Artar in Compur No. 2, but I'll still be real tempted to pick one up. At 400g, it's still only about 14 oz. - which makes it lighter than the 360mm Fujinon (465g) - the only other non-telephoto lens in this focal length range to come in a Copal No. 1 shutter.
Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)
Kerry, I guess your Artar cells are really lightweight. I just put a Copal 1 shutter on the scale together with two lens cells of the 360mm f/9 Apo-Germinar (which comes in a size 3 shutter): 390g. So Schneider's new lens is not far off, although the f/11 should have saved some weight. The 55mm filter thread is a little strange for f/11 too - the 360mm Apo-Germinar only needs a 49mm one for f/9.
Of course its not 100% sure its a dialyte until Schneider publishes the lens section drawing.

Per: AFAIK, the Celor and Apo-Ronar are the same basic dialyte formula (biconvex-biconcave-biconcave -biconvex). The glass types, radii, and airspaces differ and account for different coverage numbers.

[Atul Mohidekar]

its 400g, 55mm flter size, and €762 (including 19%VAT, without extender)

Arne

Is it possible that 400g includes the extension tube weight? By comparison, the Nikkor M 300mm is also in Copal-1, has 52mm filter and weighs 270g.


// Atul

[Really Big Cameras]

Kerry, I guess your Artar cells are really lightweight. I just put a Copal 1 shutter on the scale together with two lens cells of the 360mm f/9 Apo-Germinar (which comes in a size 3 shutter): 390g. So Schneider's new lens is not far off, although the f/11 should have saved some weight. The 55mm filter thread is a little strange for f/11 too - the 360mm Apo-Germinar only needs a 49mm one for f/9.


Yes, the 14" L.D. Artar cells are quite light - which was the reason I went to the trouble and expense to have Steve mount them in the Compur No. 2 shutter. This is a very late Goerz lens in the all aluminum barrel/cells. I also have a 16.5" L.D. Artar. It also has a pretty high serial number (but not as high as the 14" L.D.), but the glass is mounted in brass cells in a brass barrel. It's much heavier, and would require a Copal No. 3 shutter. It's a great lens, and I like the focal length on 8x10, but if lightweight is your primary goal the slightly longer 450mm Fujinon C would be better choice.

Based on the serial numbers of some late Goerz lenses I have, there doesn't seem to be a single date or serial number when they switched from brass to aluminum cells and barrels. The 14" L.D. Artar has a serial number of 837xxx and is all aluminum (cells and barrel). The 16.6" L.D. Artar has a serial number of 824xxx and is all brass. My 42" Red Dot Artar has a serial number of 810xxx and it's a bit of a hybrid. That makes it four or five years older than the 16.5" L.D. Artar. The cells are brass, but the barrel and mounting flange are (thankfully) aluminum. On a big lens like this, that results in a weight savings of about 2.5 lbs. (5 lbs. vs. 7.5 lbs.). So, perhaps they switched to aluminum barrels on the bigger lenses first and eventually worked their way down to the smaller lenses where the weight (and possibly cost) savings were less significant.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://reallybigcameras.com)

[Drew Wiley]

It is certainly welcome news to see that Schneider finally recognizes that there is a market for smaller more ergonomic view lenses. Besides, all other things being equal, a #1 shutter will always yield sharper images than a #3 due to less vibration. It will be interesting to see what the real world image circle of this new lens is, since Schneider has traditionally been very conservative in rating image circles. But it's hard to imagine that a four-element design will be able to achieve the coverage of the more complex Fuji 360-A, which is just about ideal for 8X10 work in my own experience.

[Ole Tjugen]

We still don't know what design this new lens is, and a double-Gauss can have a lot of coverage. From the specifications it looks more like a dialyte, though.

One thing I like is that Schneider recognise that the majority of the market for LF lenses is now amateurs. ;)

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Fresh (frisch !) from the Photokina,
The advertising material for a new large format lens should be large format as well.
http://cjoint.com/data/jDi67Mq3Je.htm
(thanks to Philippe Ossette, France for the reporrt)

[john borrelli]

On the Schneider web site description in this thread, they describe the lens as being an: (f11-22) lens.

Maybe just a typo,but I was wondering if it could mean that the lens could be used in different configurations, one of which might end up in a maximum fstop of f22. As an example, this type of thing was done in the past by Schneider with their convertible lenses, but of course they were different lens designs.

[Arne Croell]

On the Schneider web site description in this thread, they describe the lens as being an: (f11-22) lens.

Maybe just a typo,but I was wondering if it could mean that the lens could be used in different configurations, one of which might end up in a maximum fstop of f22. As an example, this type of thing was done in the past by Schneider with their convertible lenses, but of course they were different lens designs.
I first wondered where you saw that but then I found it, it is now on the US Schneider Optics web site: http://www.schneideroptics.com/news/110308_Apo-Tele-Xenar.htm
That is different from the original German site: http://www.schneider-kreuznach.com/news.htm
It is not listed that way in the German writeup. There they claim a max. opening of 11 and a working aperture of 16-22. So my guess is that the US Schneider Optics text folded the maximum and the working aperture into one statement...

[john borrelli]

Shutterbug's January issue has a little blurb on this lens, and a few other LF products.

Of the Schneider lens: "The good bit is the recommended retail price: 762 euros, including VAT, or well under $1000 net of tax."

[Tim Povlick]

Has anyone seen the data-sheets (MTF / Distortion / Illumination curves) for this new lens? I have checked the Schneider sites, but no luck.

Thanks,

_ ..--
TiM

[Arne Croell]

Has anyone seen the data-sheets (MTF / Distortion / Illumination curves) for this new lens? I have checked the Schneider sites, but no luck.

Thanks,

_ ..--
TiM

No. I had mailed Schneider Germany recently for information on the new B+W b/w filter (R 039) and the Apo-Tele-Xenar 350 that were announced at photokina. They sent me the information on the filter but not the lens.

[r.e.]

As I understand it, this lens is supposed to be available next month. Can anyone confirm that?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

As I understand it, this lens is supposed to be available next month. Can anyone confirm that?

I just received the last issue #68 of the German magazine Schwarzweiss where they do confirm delivery of this lens for März with prices around 800 euros depending whether you take the optional extension tube or not.

And since Arne was on-line here (last year ;) ), a private meßage to him : I think I'll never get used to the new spelling of Messsucher !
Meßsucher, Scharzweiß and Maßkrug (to celebrate the new LF lens) are so much better ! ;-)

[r.e.]

A US dealer told me yesterday that they do not yet have a shipping date or price, apart from the price on Schneider's promotional material.

[benrains]

Just wondering if anyone knows of any updates on the availability of the Apo-Tele-Xenar 11/350 Compact now that we're in the month of April 2009.

[Frank Petronio]

Not that I am interested in this lens but it is nice to see that it is priced under $1000 (I think) which bodes well for Schneider selling more of them and continuing to develop new lenses at reasonable prices.

[emo supremo]

Yes, that is why I was reading through this site. The S website claims: "The Apo-Tele-Xenar Compact 11/350 in Copal 1 is expected to be available from photo dealers in North America beginning around March 20, 2009." So who's the lucky young parent(s)?

[neil poulsen]

Wow, Copal 1! I didn't realize. Getting this lens would avoid any number 3 lenses in my kit.

My current lens in that category is a Wollensack 15" Tele-Raptar (most recent version). At f5.6, it's quite large, although not as heavy as one might think.

[Sal Santamaura]

...it is nice to see that it is priced under $1000...By a nickel:

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2966

[Arne Croell]

A small correction to the filter size I stated in posts #32/36 (wrong also in the photoscala link in post #32 where I got the information from), since I now have one in my hand: The filter size is 58mm, NOT 55mm.
More data are now available from Schneider Optics at:
http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/datasheets/apo-tele-xenar/apo-tele-xenar_compact_11_350_1.pdf
http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/datasheets/apo-tele-xenar/apo-tele-xenar_compact_11_350_2.pdf
http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/datasheets/apo-tele-xenar/apo-tele-xenar_compact_11_350_3.pdf

And yes, its a dialyte.

[Richard K.]

........|||||.....And yes, its a dialyte.

Didn't you mean to say "delight"? :D

Fantastic little lens!!

[Arne Croell]

Didn't you mean to say "delight"? :D

Fantastic little lens!!
Yes, its dialyte delight! :-)

I ran my standard test when I got it, and it is great! I listed a few numbers here (post no. 23): http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=51561&page=3

[Richard K.]

Yes, its dialyte delight! :-)

Sky Rockets in flight - dialyte delight! :rolleyes:

Sorry, it 's just so cold here!

[Don Dudenbostel]

Any idea who might have one in stock. I was in the process of buying one today from Midwest and someone bought the only one they had via their web site. I've been searching with no luck for another. Badger said they might have some soon but that's not for sure.

[Eric Leppanen]

Any idea who might have one in stock.Robert White in the UK might have one, or they might be able to obtain a copy from their continental sources.

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=2576&PT_ID=370