CS4 Suite...

[jim kitchen]

Adobe says September 23, 2008...

I have not cracked the wrapper on CS3... :)

jim k

[Bill_1856]

I have PS7 on the Mac, but mainly use Elements 2 on the PC. The price to upgrade (both in money and time) is too much for most of my needs.

[Brian_A]

I have PS7 on the Mac, but mainly use Elements 2 on the PC. The price to upgrade (both in money and time) is too much for most of my needs.

I don't even think you can use PS7 or Elements 2 to get a discount upgrade to CS4. I think you have to buy a new license as it is anyway.

I have the CS3 Design Suite, so I don't think it'll be until the next version that I upgrade unless there's something really nice in CS4 I can't live without.

-Brian

[Walter Calahan]

Well Jim, without learning CS3, you'll now have a larger learning curve with CS4.

[eric black]

Jeez- Im still using CS! Im not too concerned about the upgrade because Im ultimately thinking of switching over to a Mac when my PC depreciates enough and gets off my business records. At that point, I guess it will be time for a new version of PS and a steep learning curve as well- how frightening!

[Marko]

Hi Jim,

If I were you, I'd start using CS3 and not even think about CS4 for at least six months after the actual release. There are several reasons, the obvious is to start learning - and using! - what you have, so you can meaningfully compare it with the new one and decide if you really need the upgrade or not. The other reason is to wait until they find and squash all the bugs, which usually happens during the first few months of the release.

Adobe has always had the best QC out there and the most stable products, but it is still software and there's always a handful of bugs and other little critters they can't find before they release it to the wild... err... to the general public.

And finally, to get a feel of how good of a match is your computer and whether you'll need upgrades there too...

Best,

Marko

[Scott Knowles]

Has it ever dawned on people that just maybe all the computer technology available with photo editors is more than enough, even over the top, and CS4 is only keeping the tech-heads alive to develop new packages and the tech-head photographers drolling with the ever present need for better stuff thinking it makes them better? Do we really need 64-bit technology? After all how many people really use all the features and capabilities of Photoshop CS3 with the whole range of colors? And in the end it's still human judgement that decides, not technology.

But then I'm slightly color-blind, typical male blue-green issues. And I'll keep CS3 with updates on my Mac for a few more years.

[cjbroadbent]

What should Gimp do better to make you switch?

[BarryS]

It's an essential part of Adobe's (any every other software company's) business plan to continually develop and sell upgrades. With a mature product like Photoshop, the upgrades seem trivial and for most people--there's very little point in keeping up with every new version. From what I've read about CS4, I'm underwhelmed by the new features. Maybe I'm just frustrated by the times I've upgraded and wasted time troubleshooting problems that weren't there in the previous version.

[jim kitchen]

By the time I open CS3, or my current Mac chews its last byte, CS16 will be out... :)

jim k

[Bruce Watson]

Do we really need 64-bit technology?

Yes, we do.

If you want to work well on the really large files that result from scanning LF film, then yes, you really do need 64 bit technology. I routinely work on drum scans of 5x4 color negative film as large as 1.5 GB RGB 16 bit, and I don't have any doubt that my (photo editing) life would be a lot better if Apple and Abode would finally get their 64 bit acts together and actually use the 64 bit hardware that's been available for years.

It's going to be one of those things that once you have it you'll be wondering how you could have gotten along without it.

[Brian Ellis]

I always say I'm not going to upgrade. Then I start reading and talking with friends and inevitably there will be a few new things that I think will be useful so I end up spending the $190 and doing it. And so far I've always been glad I did.

[Scott Knowles]

Yes, we do.
If you want to work well on the really large files that result from scanning LF film, then yes, you really do need 64 bit technology.

I would never argue against that need. I'm arguing the average photographers, like me, who rarely prints larger than 8x10, and usually has labs to their printing (only greater than 8x10). I'm just asking for most (say ~90%) of the market, how much will that add to the quality of their work that can't be done now?

I'm making more of a facetious argument that most, including myself, rarely if ever use what they have now enough to need more or better. It often seems software companies are selling the idea of being better with better software when it's really about the content, ie the photograph. If you need it, then good, but if not, why pretend you do?

[Marko]

Photoshop is aimed at a much larger group of professionals than photographers. I think it would be rather safe to say that photographers represent a minority of users and that their requirements are relatively modest in comparison with some others.

If you feel overwhelmed with its capabilities, there's plenty of lighter-weight imaging applications out there which might be easier on both your wallet and your computer.

Software companies are doing the same as car companies - they keep improving their product and they keep coming up with newer, better, shinier models. What they don't do is keep a gun to your head and require that you trade in. Only you can tell whether you really want it, not to mention need it. But don't make assumptions on behalf of the rest of us. Please?

[Ken Lee]

"What should Gimp do better to make you switch?"

Built-in support for 16-bit color spaces and operations.

Built-in support for ICC profiles, for both printing and on-screen proofing.

The last time I looked, neither of these were available. Are they available now ?

[George Kara]

What should Gimp do better to make you switch?

I really like Gimp but the problem is you can't use the useful plugins that run on photoshop.

[Lenny Eiger]

Has it ever dawned on people that just maybe all the computer technology available with photo editors is more than enough, even over the top, and CS4 is only keeping the tech-heads alive to develop new packages and the tech-head photographers drolling with the ever present need for better stuff thinking it makes them better? Do we really need 64-bit technology? After all how many people really use all the features and capabilities of Photoshop CS3 with the whole range of colors? And in the end it's still human judgement that decides, not technology.

I use a lot of adjustment layers. CS increased the file size tremendously with each layer. CS 2 (or 3 - I forget) fixed this. That's huge. If I was only working with files 100 megs or less, I would be quite happy with CS3. However, I use large format and have a drum scanner, and the file sizes are in the Gigabytes. For these, CS3 is a dog. Yes, I would like more speed.

The question, of course, is whether the new version will deliver it. I doubt it. Their whole focus appears to be on the amateur, and digital, small file photographer. They don't like professionals and their pesky questions and real needs. They are too damn lazy to fix their memory issues.

Yeah, it's a love-hate relationship.

Lenny

[Garry Madlung]

Fine, I'll upgrade. There seem to be a few but key features in CS4. Won't be in a rush though. It's still expensive to print 16 bit files on the chromira.

RAM trumps just about everything else for performance. We'll see how that upgrade works.

[asnapper]

Found these on the net so not sure if the features are correct

Photoshop CS4 New Features: ---

Enhanced masking feature:
Layer Mask Density option allows you to fade away the effect of a layer mask gradually revealing the parts that are hidden.
Real-time filters with no color depth restrictions:
Allows filters to use graphics card power in image processing instead of the CPU, which means all operations will be much faster.
Liquid resize feature:
Allows you to shrink or enlarge a photo disproportionally without stretching it.

Enhanced Quick Selection tool:
The Refine Edge dialog now has a new feature to deals much better with complex surfaces such as fur ensuring a more defined line between subject and background.
Improved Dodge and Burn tools:
Improved algorithm in these tools lets results look less destructive and more natural.
Polished interface:
Photoshop interface brightness will be adjustable like in Adobe Bridge with buttons and dialog boxes look will be improved.
Extended and enhanced color profile management.:
Multichannel, Device-Link and Abstract color profiles to be added.

Other Photoshop CS4 new features and improvements:

New technology for creating amazing panoramas.
Rotatable canvas in 360 degree space
Better HDR support
Faster load time
Enhanced vanishing point
Better Black & White conversion
Better RAW image processing

[Eugene van der Merwe]

The last thing i need is a version of Photoshop that can do even more! That said, i'll have the new version the moment it hits the shelves, my boss is very big on being "up to date"... His version of "up to date" usually means "lots to learn" for me!

[neil poulsen]

What's actually happening on Sept. 23rd, the date I saw associated with CS4? Is it just the announcement, or are they selling the product?

A friend tells me that it's just the announcement, that about all of the CS4 Design Suite components are in beta test, except for Acrobat.

[bagdad child]

Hang around for GIMP 2.8 which will most likely have 16-bit support. GIMP 2.6, which is due for release anytime soon, will have GEGL implemented which finally makes way for higher bit depth. The prediction is that GIMP 2.8 will be available in 2009 - for free.

[Marko]

The last thing i need is a version of Photoshop that can do even more! That said, i'll have the new version the moment it hits the shelves, my boss is very big on being "up to date"... His version of "up to date" usually means "lots to learn" for me!

Man, I would love to have more people like your boss work with or for me! I always have to beg and prod most people to move along. I'll never understand resistance to learning, aren't people curious any more? Take learning out of work and you're left with no fun, just drudgery. Why would anybody want that?

At the very least, your boss is forcing you to remain competitive and marketable by keeping your skills sharp and current. If you really don't like that, you can always use that edge to find another job. Unless of course finding one is even more bothersome than learning... :)

[jim kitchen]

What's actually happening on Sept. 23rd, the date I saw associated with CS4? Is it just the announcement, or are they selling the product?

A friend tells me that it's just the announcement, that about all of the CS4 Design Suite components are in beta test, except for Acrobat.

Dear Neil,

I might believe this date just happens to be an Adobe announcement, and if that is true, I will more than likely forget about CS4 as quickly as the announcement surfaced...

Then again, I might just park my CS2, take the wrapper off my CS3, and see what is under the hood. :)

jim k

[Stephen Best]

Full details here:

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/

[Marko]

Looks like it should be a worthwhile upgrade for the experienced users, but beginners or involuntary ;) users have very little to gain over CS3.

[keith english]

I'm working on my MFA and school requires us to have at least CS2, which I'm running and recommend CS3. I found out after purchasing CS2, at the student price, that it can't be upgraded. So, I think I'll wait a while and purchase CS4 at full price so it can be upgraded next year when CS5 comes out! Looks like some good new features in CS4, especially if the pano stitching is greatly improved.

[D. Bryant]

Full details here:

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/

Go here for videos previewing the new features:

http://www.photoshopuser.com/cs4/index.html

Don Bryant

[Colin Graham]

Thanks for that link. Glad they finally integrated adjustment dialogues into the side panel instead of that giant image-obscuring popup box.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

What is this Gimp?

[drew.saunders]

I'm working on my MFA and school requires us to have at least CS2, which I'm running and recommend CS3. I found out after purchasing CS2, at the student price, that it can't be upgraded. So, I think I'll wait a while and purchase CS4 at full price so it can be upgraded next year when CS5 comes out! Looks like some good new features in CS4, especially if the pano stitching is greatly improved.

Educational pricing from Adobe usually includes no updates ever (at least it was for me for PS 5 and CS2). The educational price is also generally a hair cheaper than the upgrade price, so, should you go from CS2 to CS4, you now have a fully legal copy of CS2 to give to your parents.

Drew

[Ken Lee]

What is this Gimp?

"GIMP is the GNU Image Manipulation Program. It is a freely distributed piece of software for such tasks as photo retouching, image composition and image authoring. It works on many operating systems, in many languages..."

...See http://www.gimp.org

[bagdad child]

What is this Gimp?

GIMP is what will soon force Adobe to slash their ridiculous prices. Who will pay $700 for photoshop when GIMP will be just as good? It ain't there yet, but it won't be long now...

[nathanm]

Content-Aware Scaling

Use the new and revolutionary Content-Aware Scaling feature to automatically recompose an image as you resize it, smartly preserving vital areas as the image adapts to the new dimensions. Get the perfect image in one step without time-intensive cropping and retouching.

Oh boy, here it comes. The next so-cool-so-powerful-but-so-potentially-evil effect! I hope those Indian guys made a bundle from this. I don't forsee as much of a spike in obnoxious looking art as with HDR, though. But you never know.


Extended depth of field

Combine a range of images, each with a different exposure, color, and focal point — with options to preserve tones and colors — into a single color-corrected image.

Woo hoo! As someone who has to combine multi-focus macro shots of tiny product images together because we shoot with an SLR and not a view camera this is a treat. I just hope it works a little better than Helicon Focus, which was pretty artifacty. Tall order, though.


Smoother panning and zooming

Gracefully navigate to any area of an image with new, ultra-smooth zooming and panning. Maintain clarity as you zoom to individual pixels and easily edit at the highest magnification with the new Pixel Grid.
Now that IS a feature! I thought this was a hardware-dependent thing. Video buffer on the video card or something. To me the Holy Grail of Photoshop is raw speed and fluidity. This only happens with small files. Those nice big film scans are another story. Scooting around at 1:1 doing dust busting can be a real pain on those whopper files. But my perceptions must be relative, because years ago I was working with poster-sized files on Quadras and somehow I lived through it. Hmmm. I have no idea how Clyde Butcher works on 1.5GB scans on a G4 MDD, though. I would be looking for a new hobby! Heh! Maybe he is hardcore old school, only 1 undo or something. No adjustment layers? Still seems painful to imagine.

[Lenny Eiger]

Oh boy, here it comes. The next so-cool-so-powerful-but-so-potentially-evil effect! I hope those Indian guys made a bundle from this. I don't forsee as much of a spike in obnoxious looking art as with HDR, though. But you never know.

Woo hoo! As someone who has to combine multi-focus macro shots of tiny product images together because we shoot with an SLR and not a view camera this is a treat. I just hope it works a little better than Helicon Focus, which was pretty artifacty. Tall order, though.

To me the Holy Grail of Photoshop is raw speed and fluidity. This only happens with small files. Those nice big film scans are another story. Scooting around at 1:1 doing dust busting can be a real pain on those whopper files.

This is the real frustration for me. I only have large files.... I am working on one right now that is 5 Gigs. Most are in the 1-3 Gig range. I have lots of RAM and make it thru. You can bet that NONE of the new features will work properly with large files. Adobe doesn't believe they exist.

They have a real anti-pro mentality these days. (That's anti-pro, large format rather than anti-commercial shooter.)

Lenny

[nathanm]

Heck, I would really love if Lightroom lifted the 10,000 pixel limit. That prevents me from printing some of my 4x5 scans through it. I like Lightroom's print module, especially the output sharpening.

[Ken Lee]

They are in business to make money ("After all, we are not communists" - Don Barzini in The Godfather).

They want to delight the vast population of digital photographers, many of who would probably consider a 5 MB image to be rather large.

We are free to write our own software if we like. If I had more spare time, I would contribute to GIMP, but much of my spare time is spent making photos these days, not writing more software.

[Lenny Eiger]

They are in business to make money ("After all, we are not communists" - Don Barzini in The Godfather).

They want to delight the vast population of digital photographers, many of who would probably consider a 5 MB image to be rather large.

Yes, the 5mb toy image is the rule, I agree. It's a joke. As far as the money is concerned, maybe communism has something to offer (this is an attempt at levity, not necessarily serious, I am not a member of the party...).

You see, I believe that if money was the driving force, PhotoShop would never have been invented. This would also be true of many products we all hold dear. This is where "extreme" or "no-exceptions" capitalism fails. If all they care about is money, extracting out every last dime, all minorities lose, including those of us on the Mac platform, etc.

Innovation is almost always driven by people who have a vision, and they have to follow it to to completion of the innovation to succeed, regardless of money. When the company gets large enough for the bean counters to be involved in innovation decisions, the company begins to have more and more boring products until they are not interesting to the market at all... there is plenty of historical examples - IBM, Microsoft, etc... Somehow Steve Jobs seems to stay ahead of this, but they are certainly not giving us everything they could. IMO, it is pure stupidity for Adobe to follow this path.

Lenny

[D. Bryant]

GIMP is what will soon force Adobe to slash their ridiculous prices. Who will pay $700 for photoshop when GIMP will be just as good? It ain't there yet, but it won't be long now...
Seems to me that was what was being said 5 years ago ...

Don Bryant

[Marko]

I wonder what percentage of the overall user base is dealing with large format film scans? I'm sure someone at Adobe asked this question already and the answer is most likely reflected in the current limitations.

Or to rephrase it a bit, it is very likely that those limits are there because pushing them any further would bring into play the law of diminishing returns.

[paulr]

"What should Gimp do better to make you switch?"

Built-in support for 16-bit color spaces and operations.

Built-in support for ICC profiles, for both printing and on-screen proofing.

The last time I looked, neither of these were available. Are they available now ?

Yes, and for many years.

[paulr]

It's true that photographers are just one set of Photoshop users, and that many of the features will be irrelevant to us. What's important is looking at new features that ARE relevant.

CS3 introduced one feature that I couldn't live without: a greatly improved Curves palette. This was pretty minor in the grand scheme of all the new bells and whistles, but it's made me a lot more productive. This is the kind of thing to look out for.

[Lenny Eiger]

I wonder what percentage of the overall user base is dealing with large format film scans? I'm sure someone at Adobe asked this question already and the answer is most likely reflected in the current limitations.

Or to rephrase it a bit, it is very likely that those limits are there because pushing them any further would bring into play the law of diminishing returns.

The large format crowd is actually growing. Sales of LF equipment are up 15% a year...

Further, files will get larger and larger as new equipment comes along. A Betterlight back can make a 768 meg file. Add a few layers and you can easily be over a Gig.

The diminishing returns bit is a bunch of hooey. A lot of it depends on print size and if you never want to make anything larger than 11 inches, it doesn't matter what you use. The consumer market wants 4x6 snapshots of their family. They don't need many pixels at all.

If you want to make a larger print at full quality, perhaps even in B&W, you need to have the info off the film. You can get much more real data off a piece of film than they want you to believe. I pull 96 megapixels from a 35mm image, and all the way to 568 megapixels from an 8x10. I can print a 40 inch print at 660 dpi - and my printer can see the difference - and so can I. A 12, or 22 megapixel camera, for example, isn't even in the ballpark.

As people see the quality they can get with larger files they will want PhotoShop top work properly. They will have to fix their pile of bloatware..

Lenny

[Marko]

It's awesome that the LF crowd is growing at such a brisk rate, but if they just had to ban the Lounge on the only LF forum around because it became kinda lonely in the rest of the forum, you can only imagine how strongly that can influence strategic thinking over at Adobe... ;)

Especially when you realize that photographers are not their main market even as a class, let alone film photographers or perhaps LF photographers...

Preserving and even insisting on film may be a driving force and a mission statement over at APUG, but I can assure you that Adobe has quite different priorities. And it shows on their bottom line.

[George Kara]

I have found that the absolute best tool for color correction is silverfast. This software really does one thing only - adjust the image. For this reason it is a superior tool to Adobe for the film community. The adobe product has evolved with the digital community. It is an excellent tool for photomanipulation but I suspect most LF's are not interested in this art form.

[Ken Lee]

"Yes, and for many years".

Could you please share with us, a link where we can download a copy ?

Which platforms are supported ?

[paulr]

"Yes, and for many years".

Could you please share with us, a link where we can download a copy ?

Which platforms are supported ?

I could tell you where to download a free copy, but passing around info like that is frowned upon ;)

Mac OSX and Windows are supported; not sure about anything else.

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/photoshop/faq/?promoid=DRHXB

[Ken Lee]

Paul -

I'm sorry to have misunderstood: I thought you were saying that GIMP has been providing those features for many years. I was asking you to provide a link to that version of GIMP.

(I have read of a special 16-bit version, crafted by the video editing/animation community to run on Linux, but unavailable for general distribution. I was hoping that you would reveal it to us).

[Michael Chmilar]

(I have read of a special 16-bit version, crafted by the video editing/animation community to run on Linux, but unavailable for general distribution. I was hoping that you would reveal it to us).

I believe you are talking about CinePaint, which started as a fork from the gimp project (about 10 years ago). It is freely available:

http://www.cinepaint.org/

[paulr]

Ha ... I misunderstood you! I thought you were saying Gimp had those features and were wondering if photoshop did. Sorry for the mixup.

[Ken Lee]

"I believe you are talking about CinePaint..."

It seems that the downloadable items, are source code. I'm not in the mood to compile and build the application on my machine, etc. That can be a long process. Perhaps I am wrong ?

[Paul Kierstead]

Jeez- Im still using CS! Im not too concerned about the upgrade because Im ultimately thinking of switching over to a Mac when my PC depreciates enough and gets off my business records.

Just to make sure ya know -- it can save a lot of money -- you can do a cross platform upgrade. I think you're only allowed a couple ever, or something, but it sure beats paying full retail.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Don't do what I did.

As a legal registered CS2 Suite owner, I listened to another's experience of having done this successfully. I mistakenly went online and followed all the links at the Adobe D/L site to buy an upgrade to Photoshop CS3 (only the component) after using the trial version. Gee, it only took me three attempts and 2 hours to install it on my Mac (!!!)

Now, you'd think that if this was not a valid upgrade path, Adobe would have not let me proceed this far, wouldn't you?

Instead, I plug in my freshly purchased license key and all is well... uh uh. Invalid S/N... A call to Mumbai and 45 minutes on hold later, no joy. Not a valid upgrade path is the answer. But I know people who've done this, I pleaded, can't you provide me a code to override? NO.

Followed the explicit instructions on how to fax them a Letter of Software Destruction for a refund (which is mentioned as having to take 6-8 weeks, but it sure didn't take them long to debit my account, did it?). While I was on the phone the CSR destroyed my D/L license and key code. I likewise removed the software and D/L from my machine as per the Letter of Destruction. Yet, weeks later, I call back and they acknowledge the receipt of the faxed LOSD, but not the correct one, and they point me to the page with the proper one. Which I double-checked to find that I'd sent the correct one (of the two versions). So I send an email explaining all this to the customer care address and they tell me they don't do refunds via email, only via phone support. However, they later email me to say they never got a LOSD from me and and notify me they've cancelled my claim. Lovely.

Now I'm out more than $200, I've got several hours into trying to get a refund and I'm perturbed. Not worth another several days worth of emotional involvement for a mere $200. (Did I mention I've got a quarter million acre forest fire burning literally in my front yard at the same moment?)

Adobe is a database company and should never have let a registered CS2 Suite owner get that far along into that D/L process. Absolutely no mention of incompatibilities for upgrading single components of the Suite to be found on their site. Too, they're inconsistent with their policies on allowing exceptions and providing override codes. Likewise one would think that if they were a customer-friendly company, the online version of the LOSD would be an editable .pdf, wouldn't one? After all-- Adobe INVENTED .pdf! Nope, not editable... so you've got to send them a fax to fill out and sign the thing instead of emailing it back to them.

I'm now out $200 and have been turned from a loyal customer to an Adobe hater. Which also reminds me that even their name means mud. (Sun-baked Brahma bull dung, evidently.)

[Paul Kierstead]

Well now, that really sucks. Adobe can be a frustrating company; idiotic and stubborn one minute, very easy going and customer focused the next.

Yes, a cross-platform upgrade gotta be done on the phone. I had mine done in under 48 hours (actually under 24 I think), but that tales is very clear in the it-could-go-bad category.

[Donald Miller]

The thing that intrigues me about CS4 extended is the ability to map 2D objects into 3D space. Since I am working with video and slide show production probably as much or more than LF photography these days, it has real appeal to me.

I have a question, however...is there another 3D program apart from Maya or CS4 extended that has a good workflow when working on a Windows 64 bit platform?

[bsimison]

Has it ever dawned on people that just maybe all the computer technology available with photo editors is more than enough, even over the top, and CS4 is only keeping the tech-heads alive to develop new packages and the tech-head photographers drolling with the ever present need for better stuff thinking it makes them better? Do we really need 64-bit technology?.

For the most part, I agree with you...but I have to say, there's a big difference running Lightroom in 64-bit vs. 32-bit mode on my Intel Macbook.

[Donald Miller]

For the most part, I agree with you...but I have to say, there's a big difference running Lightroom in 64-bit vs. 32-bit mode on my Intel Macbook.


I have received CS4 Production Premium Suite and it sure runs a lot faster in 64 bit than CS3 did.

Had I just been working with still images, I would not have opted for the upgrade but since I have increasingly moved to video it was an opportune time to upgrade...all in all CS4 is a very good program.