A total new guy, digital convert? [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

reeluff

12-Sep-2008, 14:29

Hey!

At the moment I am using a 5D, but just feel it is not the format for me. Everytime I see large format photography I get jealous, so here I am hoping to be made a large format guy. I will use my digital for one style and envision the large format for a different style.

So being a complete newbie I would need to learn everything from the ground up. I have not really even used much film before, though I know I want to use large format over medium.

I have used digital for most of my life, and so using a camera and the basics I know... just the technicallities of large format.

So, here is what I want...

I am thinking 4x5, light equipment...as in not a backache to carry. If it is too heavy I would probably not take the camera out. I would like full capabilities of tilt, swing etc. Would probably buy used for lower costs. My style would be natural light, outdoor and indoor people photos. And i would like to scan at home to a good resolution. What that means to me is something similar to my 5d. Then when needed drum scan for good output later on.

So my questions would be,

What camera?
What lens? (Something comparable to 50mm in 135 photography)
What scanner? (heard flatbed is ok for large format)
What film?

Where in the UK is a good place to buy film/ get film processed?

And what are some good webistes/ books on large format techniques/ or even online galleries of large format work?

thanks so much.
Lee.

drew.saunders

12-Sep-2008, 14:34

Start here, as in the parent web site for this forum: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Ash

12-Sep-2008, 14:40

What camera?
What lens? (Something comparable to 50mm in 135 photography)
What scanner? (heard flatbed is ok for large format)
What film?

Those are such broad questions you'll need to decide WHAT you want to shoot to decide.

Do you want portraits or scenic landscapes? Studio or street? Technical and precise movements to get selective focus, or just plain old picture?

Read up on the various types of cameras, monorail, field, press/handheld, etc. Once you've done that you can work out what camera.

From that you'll be able to decide what lenses. A "normal" lens is around 150-180mm depending on what perspective you're after.

As for film, best price seems to be 7dayshop. I'm still toying with buying a bulk of chinese film for b&w. Again, decide on b&w or colour, quality or quantity, end product.

Scanner, well I'm disappointed with mine, but the Epson V700 is the way to go for a "cheap" high res scanner.

There isn't a LF equivalent to the 5D, so you need to be very specific or you'll be disappointed.

Skorzen

12-Sep-2008, 15:00

The link Drew provided will give you tons of great information and I recommend that you spend some time reading through the articles there. That being said what are you looking to shoot, color or b&w? Color is going to cost lots more, but coming from a 5d I expect you are used to color. B&W is different because it is very easy to process yourself. I mostly shoot B&W because that is what I prefer but LF color is amazing.

If you are shooting people pictures I don't personally see why you would need extensive movements (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so I think a press camera would probably be the best option. With this you get a camera that folds up small and usually has the option of being used handheld (with rangefinder focusing) as well. Something like a Pacemaker Speed or Crown Graphic would work just fine (Crown for lighter weight, Speed for a built in shutter that lets you use lenses without shutters). Both of these can probably be found in good condition with a lens for under $300 USD. For a bit more the linholf press cameras are very nice but I don't have any personal experience with them. Might be worth checking out a Super Speed Graphic or Super Graphic because they come with a rotatable back.

Most of these should come with a lens that should be perfectly fine for getting started.

As for a scanner probably the best (or at least most popular and available) is the epson V700/V750.

Film depends on color or B&W, for good inexpensive B&W film check out the Arista films from Freestyle photo. I have had fun with Tmax 400 (TMY) as well.

reeluff

12-Sep-2008, 15:11

Thanks for the link, will definitely be doing a ton of reading. Have used 7dayshop before so that will be ok.

Forgot to mention, colour (portraits).

Seems like the scanner is sorted. I mean 5D in terms of digital image size/ resolution. What res would I be able to scan comfotably with, with that epson?

I would like to be able to change the plane of focus, so some kind of movement would be good, I guess tilt more than shift.

Joanna Carter

12-Sep-2008, 15:16

Where in the UK is a good place to buy film/ get film processed?
Have you thought of joining our UK LF discussion forum? www.lf-photo.org.uk/forum

As to where to find film : Robert White, Teamwork, Calumet, etc

As to developing : Leach Colour, Peak Imaging...

Kirk Gittings

12-Sep-2008, 15:19

Seems like the scanner is sorted. I mean 5D in terms of digital image size/ resolution. What res would I be able to scan comfotably with, with that epson?

The general consensus about that series of scanners is that it has a true optical resolution of around 2000 ppi. I use a 750 and a 5D. This is a personal POV......I find my quality limit for FA prints from a 5D (with a first class prime lens) tops out at about 11x14 and 16x20 with scanned 4x5 with a 750. Even at 16x20 though I prefer a professional scan, lower noise, shadow, highlight detail etc. This may not reflect your standards.

John Kasaian

12-Sep-2008, 15:32

What camera? It sounds like a wooden folder is what you seek.
What lens? Anything from a 135mm to 210mm looks "normal" on 4x5, IMHO.
What scanner? How would I know? I don't do scanners, man!
What film? FP-4+ (unless you can cut a deal on Fomapan)
Don't forget you'll also need a light meter (pentax or sekonic are fine) tripod, dark cloth (make your own,) loupe (Fuji makes a nice one) and film holders
...and don't forget a good book!---I suggest Steve Simmons "Using The View Camera" buy this first!

Ernest Purdum

12-Sep-2008, 18:08

Books are cheaper than cameras and lenses. Books first, cameras later.

I always like to see beginners start wirh an inexpensive 4X5 (OK, 5X4, since you're British) monorail camera. This will give you a chance to experience the whole of what large format is all about. The Calumet CC-400 series provide all the movements so you can find out for yourself what they are good for. Though old, they are pretty rugged and Calumet still supports them. Being in the UK, though, and considering transportation expense, you might find something similar at better overall cost. The nice thing about starting out like this is that should you decide you want something else, you can sell it, probably for the same or only little less than you paid for it and consider any loss involve as cheap rent.

Regarding a lens, here again something used and inexpensive is appropriate. The most important factor is a large enough image circle to enable use of your movements. Nearly any 210mm lens will have that. That's longer than "normal" for the format or than a 50mm on 35, but it's good for portraits and for many other purposes you can just move back a little. Sure, you'll probably want something shorter eventually, but starting with one lens is a good idea. You don't need high speed, most LF work is done at small apertures. F5.6 or smaller is usually a good bet. When you find a lens you think might do, check back here. In the UK, the highly regarded 203mm f7.7 Ektar sometimes shows up in a Prontor or Compur shutter. If you find one, it would be a great choice.

Regarding scanners, I have no idea. Your comment about "digital" for most of my life" makes me feel very, very old. (I am, of course, but sometimes I can forget it.)

Francesco Gallarotti

12-Sep-2008, 18:56

Lee,
coming from the same position you are (5D owner) and having given a try to medium format with a Hasselblad I realized that I really wanted to move into LF to learn more about the essence of photography techniques.
Like you I had pretty much no clue about what to buy, and didn't even know what I needed to buy. The parent site of this forum offered A LOT of useful information and this forum helped me a lot to find the answer to a lot of newbie questions I had after having chosen my camera (Chamonix 45n1 - I really like the fact that it is supposed to be very light and well engineered).
You might want to take a look at some of my older posts and find some of the questions you might have already answered there.
But, please, before everything else... do yourself a favor and read the parent site of this forum! It will be so much helpful!

One last thing. No matter what will be your question (which lens? which camera? which developer? which paper? which film?) be prepared to get 15 replies with 15 different answers. It's so very normal here on LFPF that it's almost funny. What matters is to read the replies and try to understand that in reality nothing matters more than your experience in this world. All cameras are good enough for a beginner, and so are lenses, film, developers and papers. Try to not bring the gear head that you might have acquired in the digital world. Pick your winners and stuck with them until you can actually "see" that you want to try something different.

Relax, take a deep breath... welcome to the marvellous world of LF!

Francesco Gallarotti

12-Sep-2008, 19:02

One more thing... because of your digital background you will miss "chimping" as a way to learn from your mistakes. The only alternative in LF is to use instant films. Polaroids are discontinued, but luckily Fuji makes very high quality instant films that will allow you to understand better exposures.
there are two formats of instant films:
FP-100C45 (which is - as you have guessed - 4x5)
FP-100C(which is about 3.25x4.25)
I strongly suggest to go for the smaller backs that load the smaller Fuji 100C. Each sheet cost less than a dollar while the slightly larger 4x5 ones cost almost 3 dollars each.
I went this route after making a couple of mistakes buying the wrong backs. Try to get a used Polaroid 405 on evilBay or from KEH.com (the best customer service you can get from an online store of photography gear)

ic-racer

13-Sep-2008, 08:03

Hey!

At the moment I am using a 5D, .

I have never heard of that, is that the 11x14 version of the 2D??:p

Bob Phipps

13-Sep-2008, 08:21

Three books you might look at as well. They were very helpful to me when I statrted 5 years ago.

"Using the View Camera" by Steve Simmons
"A User's Guide to the View Camera" by Jim Stone
"Large Format Nature Photography" by Jack Dykinga

These books helped me determine the type of camera and gave me the vision of LF photos I wanted to make.

Digital has it's place, but once you try LF.....you will be hooked. :)
Best
Bob Phipps

Jiri Vasina

13-Sep-2008, 12:45

Let the first camera you buy be a cheap(ish) one - with that camera, you'll learn what you need, what you want from your camera, what you like, what you dislike. Either you'll find LF is not for you (then you don't pay much for the experience), or you learn a lot and (most probably) buy a second camera exactly to your needs. The Speed/Crown Graphics are good, but since you're in the UK, you could also try the M.P.P. MicroTechnical, preferably Mk.VII or Mk.VIII - I have the Mk.VII and it's a very good camera. can be had for around 250 pounds with lens in good condition.

Lens - anything in the 135-210mm range, the MPP and Graphics cameras usually come with a 135mm lens, and it's a good start.

Film - you'll most likely find, that because of cost reasons, you'll not shoot only color (or colour?) - the cost of film and processing is significant. If you have a darkroom (or any other room you can temporarily convert to one), I'd recommend shooting BW film in the beginning, Efke, Fomapan or Wephota being the cheap alternatives for learning. When you process them at home, the cost is reasonable, even accounting for all the mistakes. I also strongly recommend using the Fuji 3x4 (3.25x4.25) instant films, either color (FP-100C), or BW (FP-100B or FP-3000B) in the Fuji PA-145 or Polaroid 405 holder. The cost of the film, especially color is relatively very affordable.

Scanner: I use Epson V700, it's a good one. Has it's limitations, but the results can be very good.

Books: all the recommended books are probably worth it (have not read them, though :) ), but would also consider Bruce Barlow's "Finely Focused" (www.circleofthesunproductions.com).

reeluff

14-Sep-2008, 02:26

thankyou so much everybody!

I think I have a great base to work from now, which is why my questions were so broad. :)

I feel excited about photography again.

Does anyone have some high res scans online of 5x4 made by the epson flatbeds so I can get an idea of the quality?

And also, curious about that instant film... Sounds like a great way to start with. A bit like digital with the instant results so I can see where I am going... Is it an instand print like a polaroid snapshot camera, or an instant developed piece of film?

Jiri Vasina

14-Sep-2008, 06:21

reeluff, it's like instant polaroid snapshot.

Check your PM for reply.

Francesco Gallarotti

14-Sep-2008, 07:18

Both polaroid and Fuji instant films have a piece of negative film inside and chemicals that develop the negative and print it onto a special kind of paper.
BAD NEWS: when you opened a Polaroid you would get BOTH a negative and a positive, while in the Fuji, the negative is rendered unusable by exposure to light, so you only get a positive on paper - this means FUJI cannot be used for transfers (http://www.alternativephotography.com/process_imagetransfers.html)
GOOD NEWS: the rendition of colors is much more faithful in Fuji than in Polaroid.

The comparison with digital can also be extended to the dynamic range of the image. Polaroid and Fuji instant films have about 5 stops of dynamic range - similar to most digital cameras - which makes it harder to get a perfect exposure and makes it less forgiving as a learning tool (which is good)

Drew Bedo

14-Sep-2008, 07:47

Hello Reeluff,

Welcome to LF and this forum.
I got into LF by buying one of the Graflex press cameras at a camera show along with a few film holders. Today you’ll have to got o the ‘For Sale/Wanted’ forum on this website, the magazine mail order companies, and e-bay. This will let you learn the process and technique of LF, (dark cloth, inverted image 3-5 exposures/hr not 3-5 HUNDRED,) . You will be able to get into it without the complicating issues of camera movements. If you decide that this type of photography is too cumbersome and slow ( “We” call it contemplative creativity) for you, your initial investment will be relatively small. If you find that you only want more of LF, then you can move on to a more sophisticated shooting kit with a base of informed experience.
Jump in and shoot.

Francesco Gallarotti

14-Sep-2008, 08:17

Does anyone have some high res scans online of 5x4 made by the epson flatbeds so I can get an idea of the quality?

The only difference between a 4x5 negative (or positive) film and a smaller format is purely its size. This of course means that you can scan the 4x5 at a lower DPI which will give you better results than scanning a smaller negative at higher DPI. If you want to see an example of a medium format negative (shot with Hasselblad) take a look here (http://flickr.com/photos/cchiopris/2378958484/). He scans everything with an Epson v700 and you can see that the results are simply outstanding.

For better results I suggest buying the betterscanning.com anti-newton-ring (ANR) glass holders. For the epson v700 keep an eye on the Epson store, sometimes they have refurbished ones for less than $400!

g.lancia

15-Sep-2008, 03:27

Hello everyone, first post here.

I am one of those sad stock photographers, just bought a monorail, although I have been using film for the last 25+ years and digital for the last two years.

I wanted to add that developing BW, or c-41, or E-6, is very very easy. Especially c-41. E-6 being a bit less rewarding.

Of course you get colour shift, although it can be corrected in post processing.

I find flatbed scanners (I use a Epson 4490 for 135 and 120 film) quite good, but one needs to understand how to scan, how to use those RGB histograms, and curves.

I manage to get 16MP digital spotless photos out of medium format film. It takes 3 hours to scan and post process in photoshop each frame, though.

Now of course I can't use my scanner for LF and will have to shoot paper negative, which would not give me the quality I need, leaving my new LF as a toy camera, even if it really isn't, but what to do? Can't by a fourth scanner, can I? :-)

To the original poster, I think he just needs a cheap Graflex. Plenty of those on evil bay. :)

Stefan Lungu

15-Sep-2008, 09:27

Hello reeluff and welcome to this great community.
I came, like you from the digital world, did my reading and waited patiently to buy all the stuff I needed. I got a used monorail (Sinar F), two lenses, holders, changing bag and film but never came to take one single shot with that setup. It was nice, I loved the gear from a gearhead point of view, but I did not use it. So I sold all and got a nice little folder for 6x9. Now, having done some rolls trough this one, I fell in love with the B&W film and am considering getting back into LF again, but not with a monorail, at least not with a classical one. I know, the field cameras are not that light, and don't have all the movements, but consider that a camera that sits at home is a waste, so look out for something you think you would actually use. I do not want to discourage you, just to point out a situation I was in and if it happened to me it could happen to you ( also note that I did not gave up film :) ).
Regards, Stefan