What do I need? (Speed Graphic kind of thing)

[Paul Kierstead]

Note I already have LF camera gear (a studio 4x5 and field 4x5), so general purpose is not needed.

Here are the goals:

- Reasonably compact and singular (i.e. one package only, not including meter).
- Shoots 4x5
- Folds up into a package that is at least somewhat resilient to abuse; i.e. no exposed glass.
- Focuses with a range finder
- Hopefully has a reasonably accurate framing method.
- Unfolds and is ready to shoot within a few seconds.
- Ideally, can shoot multiple shoots.
- Affordable. Yeah, I know that is fuzzy, but lets say only 3 digits in the price is the minimum requirement. Lower means sooner :)

I don't really need movements (or at least tilt, etc); this is sort of for 4x5 street shooting. I'll probably shoot B&W for this, so colour fidelity is not a requirement.

Clearly I need some kind of Speed-graphic-y kind of deal, but the mix of lenses, coupled/not, backs, etc continues to baffle me. I'd love to have suggestions of some mixes here that work well and I have a hope of obtaining in a reasonable time period for a reasonable sum of money.

Confused,
Paul

[tim810]

Paul,
Speed graphics are great. I used one exclusivly in Italy without a tripod and had wonderful results. The camera I eventually want to trade my Speed for is a fotoman
which would still be in your 3 digit range. check here http://www.fotomancamera.com/product_list.asp?id=335

I actually want the 8x10 fotoman

hope this helps
tim

[Jim Noel]

Speed Graphic, Crown Graphic, B&J Press are all similar. There are also some other old press cameras floating around. The Speed Graphic is the only one with a focal plane as well as a between the lens shutter. Any of them should serve your purpose.
Jim

[Jim Jones]

Much information on Speed Graphic cameras (which somewhat applies to other press cameras) is contained in Graphic Graflex Photography by Willard Morgan and Henry Lester. The eight edtion covers the side rangefinder Pacemaker series of cameras; earlier editions don't. The convenience of changing lenses means many of these cameras aren't completely original. That shouldn't affect function. http://graflex.org/ also has good information.

[Glenn Thoreson]

Yup, Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic (lighter). For fast street shooting, I would recommend a Crown Graphic with a working and properly adjusted body release and rangefinder. The body release means you don't have to fiddle with the release lever on the shutter, which can be somewhat awkward for what you're planning. Finding one with a good release cable and associated parts can be a chore, though. I also much prefer the side mounted Kalart rangefinder to the top mounted Graflex rangefinder. Although you can change cams on the top mounted unit, to match different lenses, the cams are hard to come by and may or may not exactly match your lens' focal length. A crap shoot. I also consider the top finder an overly complicated, somewhat poorly concieved, troublesome thing. For street shooting, a 135 lens and a Grafmatic 6 sheet holder or two will put you in business. You can squeeze off 6 shots pretty rapidly with that setup. :D

[BrianShaw]

For those requirements I use various incarnations of Speed Graphic. some are better than others, depending on what you value the most.

You might want to look into the Polaroid camera conversions like the Razzle. I think there are a couple of different guys doing such conversions.

[ic-racer]

Here is as specific recommendation as to what I would look for:

Late model Crown Graphic (does not have the complexity/hassle of the focal plane shutter)
Late model camera should have the universal Graflok back (NOT the limited Graflex back)
Late model camera should have the top mounted rangefinder that takes cams for various lenses.

(Nothing absolute here, as any of them, new and old, Speed Graphic or Crown graphic or Bush brand can be fun)

Here is a good example of what to look for:

[Pete Roody]

A Speed allows you to experiment with older barrel lenses because of the focal plane shutter. A big advantage over the Crown imho.

[Kirk Fry]

I am sitting here scanning 4X5 negatives. Half of them came from a Crown and most hand held on boats and stuff. Paid $180 for it with side mounted range finder. They are a lot handier than they look. I recently bought a super graphic, but I still like the crown better. It is lighter. I just bought a speed, but it has not come yet. I hate ebay. Bad case of gas...... I have real view cameras too, CC400, Swiss Arca, Linhoff 45s. K

K

[Wayne Crider]

Paul, if you don't reign yourself in somewhat when shooting one of the press cameras handheld on the street, you can shoot most of a box of film quite easily having fun. Then comes the developing. Hopefully you have a nice quick method. My choice would be the Crown and forget using the rangefinder unless you have time. Best to mark the bed rail with F-stops for hyperfocal distances and don't forget exp compensation if necessary.

[jnantz]

while i have a pacemaker speed graphic,
it works well on a tripod, and handheld is OK
but if your rangefinder isn't calibrated to your lens,
and you aren't good at zone focusng ...

i use a graflex slr for street shooting
it folds up to a cube, and you don't have
to focus, put film in, and pray that you didn't move
cause it is a slr. they take barrel lenses
and are not too hard to come by.


good luck
john

[Paul Kierstead]

But I like the idea of the rangefinder, rightly or wrongly :) I do shoot a 35 mm rangefinder and love the experience; my best shots have been with LF and the rangefinder, despite lots of attempts with other equipment. In both cases it is the process that helped me, not the gear. I also look forward to interacting with some people (and the graphic will help that a lot); I have found fiddling with equipment really destroys that interaction. Now the hyperfocal distance thing does appeal, but I'll admit it doesn't work out that well with 35 mm for me (I tend to like darker times and days) and will probably work out even poorer with 4x5, considering the DOF issues. Maybe I just gotta learn for myself.

Currently I am poking around for a "turnkey" crown (i.e. complete) with a Kaldar side mount finder. So far, the back is the tricky bit; I might have to settle for a graflock back.

For the non-interactive stuff, I just happen to have a laser rangefinder, good to +-1 yard, strikes me that it could be handy with a distance scale on the bed.....

I should mention, thanks for the guidance!

As an amendment, if I did end up with a top-RF with my own lens (likely a 150 I own) or some "random" lense, what would the options for cams be?

[kilimanjaro1996]

How about a Polaroid 110B converted to 4x5 like the Razzle? I have not used the 4x5 conversion personally, but have used the 120 roll film converted version. All metal construction folded into a heavy yet very compact size (hard cover novel), takes same amount of very few steps as Crowns from out of bag to shoot. 110B has bright combined rangefinder and viewfinder. If use the standard issue Ysarex 127/4.5 the total can be less than $400, even the Razzle with Symmars will be less than a grand. The rangefinder can be tuned quite accurately, huge knob to focus, and no movements to fiddle with. Seems like suitable for street photography if you want to attract attention, even though I myself settled on a Rolleiflex from the hip.

[Frank Petronio]

Just get a Fuji 6x9 rangefinder or a Mamiya 7 and simply lie. Tell people it's 4x5 and they will never know the difference. It's between us, shhh.

Otherwise, late model Crown Graphic with top rangefinder and 135/4.7 Xenar in Compur. Leave the Speeds and exotic lenses to others.

With all due respect to my friend Dean, the folded-up Crown really isn't much more volume than the folded up Polaroid 110 conversions, just a different shape and a few ounces plus or minus...

If you're going to use a Fotoman, then it begs the question of why do you need a rangefinder at all? You probably don't for most things.

[cobalt]

I posed a very similar question yesterday. The Fuji sounds like a great idea; I've owned several and foolishly sold them. Quality is really close to 4x5. Problem is, I'd like something I can contact print as well. I've come to appreciate 4x5 contact prints, even if the genral public does not.

[Paul Kierstead]

Just get a Fuji 6x9 rangefinder or a Mamiya 7 and simply lie. Tell people it's 4x5 and they will never know the difference. It's between us, shhh.

Otherwise, late model Crown Graphic with top rangefinder and 135/4.7 Xenar in Compur. Leave the Speeds and exotic lenses to others.


I had a Mamiya 7 for a while. Interesting camera. But it wouldn't pique the interest of my victims like something with a bellows would :)

The top/bottom rangefinder thing drives me a little to distraction. I think I am trying to make too perfect of a buying decision here and probably just need to "get it on".

[Bob Salomon]

You might also look at a used Wista RF. It has a rangefinder coupled for 135, 150 and 180mm lenses. If these are within the working range that you need then it would also work.

[Wayne Crider]

Paul the Graflok back is the desirable one that allows you to use a rollfilm back. Of course horses for courses. The spring back is lighter.

If your into darker times of the day like twilight, the rangefinder will be better for focusing then off the ground glass, especially with a slow F8 lens unless there is lot's of light. I always pulled the rangefinder off to lighten my camera weight so I never used one. I use the sports finder and hyperfocal method in those situations like shooting a darkish area. Lights help tho and a flash light besides being a good point source for focusing a rangefinder, or GG, within a closer range can be a handy defense tool if your shooting real late.

I thought that you wanted to street shoot handheld but I guess not. Just get a Crown with rangefinder. You'll quickly find out what you like and don't like. Btw, cams can be bought or even made for the top rangefinders. There's info online about making them thru a search. If using a modern lens your going to be a mm or so either side of perfect focus with a top rangefinder using a cam for a lens of the focal length you want. Same FL lenses of different manufacture of the era of the camera will have different back focus so the GG is the way to go there if shooting wide or nearly wide open for minimal focus especially with a longish lens.

Like jnanian I use a Graflex SLR, but it's preferable with light.

[Paul Kierstead]

I thought that you wanted to street shoot handheld but I guess not. Just get a Crown with rangefinder.

No, the intent is definitely handheld street shooting. But I have found, in the past, even on a dark day (I like rainstorms and the like) that shooting hyperfocal with a reasonable shutter speed hand-held ends up too far away. I've missed quite a few with my 35mm rangefinder that way. Mind you, I might be relatively incompetent. Also, I have to add, I don't necessarily want infinity in focus; in general, I am not a huge fan of it for what I have in mind.

[Frank Petronio]

FWIW, I've never had a "perfect" top rangefinder or side rangefinder on a Graphic. They tend to be either perfect at long distances or closer-up, but never "perfect" over the entire range. But we are talking about a mm or two... unless you shoot wide open all the time, it isn't much of an issue. And when it is, a quick peak at the ground glass will confirm whether or not you need to "cheat" with a few extra degrees of twist on the focusing knob.

The Linhof can be perfect...

But before you run off and drop a lot of $$$ on a Linhof, remember that there are a lot of other factors to doing a successful handheld large-format photo, and absolute focusing accuracy often is not the deciding factor.... being steady, having your subjects be steady, focusing on the right spot, having enough light, etc. usually ruin the shot well before that last 1% of rangefinder accuracy comes into play.

When I tried shooting a f/2.5 Aero-Ektar handheld on a Speed I came to appreciate that the perfectly focused portraits were more about making the opportunity for "luck" to happen than anything else. Even the best technique in the world still wasn't perfect 100% of the time.

[Wayne Crider]

Paul since you have shot 35mm in the conditions that you favor (especially the dark ones) and should know approximately what F stops and shutter speeds you'll be shooting at, look at the link below and plug in your values selecting 4x5 under film format in the top line. Next plug in 135 under focal length (a normal lens for a Graphic) and F8 for a reasonably shallow depth of field for a decent hand holdable shutter speed depending on conditions, maybe not yours. Then put in whatever distance you want and hit compute. In the table below you'll see your dof at apertures. You can change the distances in the left hand column of the results table below. This table can be manipulated to show hyperfocal distances at any aperture of a specific focal length. Now if you like shooting in heavy overcast, rain or whatever, you plug in your values and see what the dof is. Remember, you may have to shoot at a very low shutter speed in order to get a reasonable DOF in dark conditions; You should know your values needed. From what I remember cause it's been awhile, going outside with a 35mm camera at twilight or to take pictures of heavy rain clouds with 100 ISO film, my shooting parameters were F4 or larger and if I was lucky 1/30th of a sec with a 50mm lens. Many times I shot slower and with a larger aperture and needed a tripod with the camera. Hand held LF down in the 1/2-1/15 sec range with 400 film and a 135mm lens could be very normal on rainy days and easily in twilight from what I remember. Hope you can use the info.

http://medfmt.8k.com/brondof.html

[Paul Kierstead]

Many thanks, Wayne; it just re-enforced what I intuitively new to be true: At even moderate apertures in LF, you don't have enough DoF to get away with guessing distance like I do with my 35mm. But I will be printing out some tables and stuffing them in my bag :)

[Paul Kierstead]

Well, I receive my Crown Graphic (top RF) with 135/4.7 lens. It seems to be in extremely good working condition and a casual check (no loupe) of the RF agreed with the GG. Only flaw I found so far is that the lens doesn't seem to want to go to 1/500, but I don't foresee that a whole lot anyway. Took me a bit to figure out how to open the dang thing.

I look forward to shooting a 55 or two the weekend and maybe some "real" film.

[bparker]

Sounds like a Graphex shutter. Typically, the highest speed ( above 1/200) requires tensioning an additional high-speed spring in the shutter mechanism; which can take quite a bit of oomph, given the tiny serrations on the speed ring.

Later, Bill

[Photomax]

Try looking into the Busch Pressman D...

Max

[Paul Kierstead]

Well now, got my crown, roamed around a little doing a little shooting. Used expired developer and fixer, but everything worked out ok. Lens has a hair of pincushion, but overall very nice for B&W. This kind of shooting would be troublesome with a field 4x5...

http://homepage.mac.com/paulkierstead/Gallery/GrindHard2_800.jpg

[Michael Graves]

In your situation, if I had the cash to spare, I'd be all over that Busch Pressman in the For Sale section.

[dsphotog]

To maintain the retro look (like WeeGee)(don't forget the cigar!) it would be cool to mount a small electronic flash into the old graflex bulb flash. this would give fill light, let you shoot smaller apertures- for more depth of field, plus give you another grip on the camera.
Not to mention lookin' cool!
David Silva
ps I love my 4x5 crown graphic.