glossy fiber prints

[rich caramadre]

If you dry glossy fiber prints on a print dryer ( the kind that is a smooth steel plate and a canvas comes down over the print) will the print end up more glossy than if it were to air dry only?

R

[JW Dewdney]

yes - it's called ferrotyping. the gelatin is 'melted' somewhat over the mirror-finished stainless steel platen. It's usually EXTREMELY glossy - in a way that 'normal glossy' paper could never get by air-drying...

[Darren Kruger]

I've been playing around with one recently. Prints are glossy (think RC glossy) and they dry within minutes. I've been getting eggshelling on the prints since I don't have a releasing agent. I've been thinking of getting some Pakosol (http://www.pakor.com/Products/pakosol_-_1_gallon-468.cfm) which I've heard is what is needed to get it to work.

Just found a snippet from www.wilhelm-research.com

Kodak Print Flattener, Pako Pakosol, and other hygroscopic print flatteners for fibre-base prints should be strictly avoided because such products can promote fungus growth in humid environments


-Darren

[Gene McCluney]

You need to keep some weight on the prints as they dry, or pressure, as applied by the cloth apron of many dryers to avoid the eggshelling. You don't want the print popping off in small sections as it dries. Yes, the Pakosol, or other agents can "help" the gloss, but you will continue to get eggshelling unless you restrain the print during the drying process. If you are just using ferrotype plates, rather than a heated dryer with a cloth apron, you could put blotter paper over the print then books on top. If you ARE using a heated dryer with a cloth apron, you need to make sure that the apron applies some pressure to the print to hold it tight against the surface of the dryer until completely dry.

[Gene McCluney]

yes - it's called ferrotyping. the gelatin is 'melted' somewhat over the mirror-finished stainless steel platen. It's usually EXTREMELY glossy - in a way that 'normal glossy' paper could never get by air-drying...

It's not actually melting, but rather the emusion surface is soft enough to take on the surface characteristics of the shiny polished platen.

[Kevin Crisp]

Gene is correct, the ferrotyping plate is very smooth and the wet emulsion picks that up when drying. (Along with all scratches or imperfections in the ferrotyping chrome.) You can squeegee a wet print onto a ferrotyping plate and it will dry with the high gloss, though it will have concentric rings since the outside edges seem to dry sooner. Ferrotyping was the classic way everybody finished their prints when I was starting my non-career working for newspapers. Since nobody cared much about archival prints the canvas on the dryers tended to get hypo-soaked and soon stained the prints a little yellow and smelled while doing so. I remember it was hard to get a good EVEN gloss with this process and I have not missed doing it.

[Glenn Thoreson]

Some of those print driers are not meant to be used for ferrotyping. I have one. Want it? A good Ferrotype plate is absolutely smooth and shiny as a mirror. It's extremely important to make sure the plate is spotless and polished. At one time, there was a product available for "waxing" the plate. Special Ferrotype plate polish was also available. When done properly, the print will release itself from the plate when it's dry. You need to place the squeegeed wet print onto the plate, use a paper towel to remove as much moisture as possible from the back, then roll the print firmly into contact with the plate. The print will lift from the plate as it dries. No heat or weight necessary. Personally, I like the look of Ilford fiber glossy paper without ferrotyping it. The surface has a look and feel almost like fine to grain leather.

[Wade D]

Years ago when in college I was approached by a wrestling coach who was writing a book. He had 500+ 35mm negs that he needed 5x7 glossies of to pick the best for publication. The turn around time was 1 week. I had my own darkroom and a small Arkay drier so I took on the project. Almost all the prints came out with a great gloss with very few needing to be reprinted. The drier held 4 5x7 prints on each side with a drying time of about 4 minutes. He was pleased with the project and I came away with a good sense of accomplishment. I still do glossies for those that want it but most nowadays prefer glossy paper dried without ferrotyping. Once you get the hang of it it's not difficult.

[rich caramadre]

Thanks for all the info. I agree that the look of illford glossy fiber paper is glossy enough for me. But we are bidding on a job and they have a very particular list of what they want. Shot on 4x5 film, Fiber paper, double fixed, hypoed, and very glossy. that is why I was looking into this. Souds like if we get it and go this route I better do some testing.

Thanks, Rich

[JW Dewdney]

It's not actually melting, but rather the emusion surface is soft enough to take on the surface characteristics of the shiny polished platen.

Well- where I'm from - something that changes shape to take on the characteristic of something else it's in contact with - is called melting. Don't worry - it hardens again when cooled.

[Kevin Crisp]

So if you throw a pile of wet laundry on the floor, and it dries there, and the bottom of the pile is flat because the floor is flat, you would say the laundry melted?

[Jim Noel]

I've been playing around with one recently. Prints are glossy (think RC glossy) and they dry within minutes. I've been getting eggshelling on the prints since I don't have a releasing agent. I've been thinking of getting some Pakosol (http://www.pakor.com/Products/pakosol_-_1_gallon-468.cfm) which I've heard is what is needed to get it to work.

Just found a snippet from www.wilhelm-research.com

-Darren

Try washing your drum well with a good detergent and then rinsing it well with distilled water. I used to use this plus glycerin on the drum when egg-shelling popped up.

[JW Dewdney]

So if you throw a pile of wet laundry on the floor, and it dries there, and the bottom of the pile is flat because the floor is flat, you would say the laundry melted?

Well - in a sense - if you mean for the act of throwing the clothing on the floor to mimic what's going on at the molecular level with the heating... I suppose there's a certain truth in that. The reason ferrotyped prints appear so glossy is that the gelatin is actually MELTED SMOOTH to conform to a similar smoothness of the stainless steel. It's not so hard to understand is it? Or does this offend sensibilites? I mean- just what do you think the role of the heating elements are on the plates?? You can burn your hand VERY badly by touching it. Gelatin doesn't have the melting point of steel, you know. I mean - if it were simply a matter of contact -then disconnecting the heating elements should have no effect on the result. I suspect you'll have a pretty different result.

[Kevin Crisp]

I kind of responded because of your 'where I'm from' point. I appear to be from the same place. I also didn't want anyone to think that the process involved heat melting the face of the print, since it doesn't.

What do I think the heating elements are for? I know this one: to speed up drying. The heat is not there to melt the gelatin. Yes, you can burn yourself, I've done it many times. But you can also put a print on a ferrotyping plate with no heat whatsoever and it will come out with the same high gloss. Even with no canvas stretched over them as on the heated print dryers, the print will pick up the high gloss. The old chrome plates show up on the auction site from time to time, sometimes unused.

When the drying print picks up the smooth finish of the plate (or drum, for the mechanical rotating ones as used in many photo labs decades ago) this is not "melting" in any sense, at least not per my dictionary. It does "conform" to the shape of the plate, as would the laundry in my example.