Shuttering a 35" Red Dot Artar

[Richard K.]

Can someone tell me if it's possible to mount a 35" RDA barrel mounted lens into a Copal #3 shutter? I'm not overly concerned about maximum aperture loss. I think I remember reading aeons ago that it CAN be done albeit not easily and perhaps only with the aluminum not brass version or vice-versa. Thanks! :confused:

[Michael Kadillak]

I do not believe that a Copal #3 is an option for the 35" Artar. The 30" Artar is the practical limit for the Copal #3. I asked this question a while back when I was considering options for a 35" Artar that I acquired. I believe that you can get it into a Ilex #5 but it is not cheap as there is some machining time involved if my memory serves me correct.

I put mine in a front mounted Packard shutter for about half the cost and it works just fine.

[RichardRitter]

It might fit into a acne # 5. The 5's are hare to come by and you would need adapter bushing. E mail Adam at SK Grimes. Not cheap.

Get a lens cap that slides off and on easy and ND filters behind the lens or close down. The lens cap makes a wonderful shutter.

[Jay M. Packer]

The late Mr. Grimes was indeed capable of inserting a 35 inch Artar (the aluminum barrel version) into a Copal #3 shutter; a photo of mine is attached. The process results in a decrease of the maximum aperture to f19.

[Richard K.]

The late Mr. Grimes was indeed capable of inserting a 35 inch Artar (the aluminum barrel version) into a Copal #3 shutter; a photo of mine is attached. The process results in a decrease of the maximum aperture to f19.

Jay, THAT'S what I wanted to hear! :) I thought I remembered such a feat being accomplished but wasn't sure, given my failing memory...I'm pretty sure that it was shown as an example on Grimes' web site years ago. Not sure why it isn't now. It's funny but I did get a reply from the Grimes' people that it can not be correctly mounted into a Copal 3 but has to go into a Ilex 5...
Do you know if this works only with the aluminum version (just curious since I have in fact acquired the aluminum one)? Also what size/type board so you have it on? I would like mine on a Sinar board. Is the f/19 maximum aperture (loss of a little over 1 stop) a problem at all? Do you have any photos taken WITH it to show?
Lastly - THANKS! I really appreciate your reply. Now that I know it can be done, I just need to have it done!

[Toyon]

I don't know about an "Acne" shutter, sounds too juvenile for a big lens. I suggest you find a Compound #5, the mightiest speed shutter ever mass produced.

[Michael Kadillak]

For purposes of documenting the record for future ULF photographers, it would be very interesting to see where you can secure the work to put this lens into a Copal #3and what it costs. I have a 42" Red Dot in #5 that was done by the great Steve Grimes and the machining that was undertaken to accomplish this objective is a thing of art all by itself.

Thanks

[Richard K.]

Michael, I'll follow up when I get this work done. I'll be using a local (Toronto area) fellow, Kevin Brown of KHB Photografix who has done sterling work for me before - everything from adding a bail to mounting difficult lenses in shutters. I still have to actually receive the lens which I won on auction recently but will get right on it when I do get it. It may take a few weeks to do; Kevin is in high demand! But I WILL let you all know the result and cost.

[Michael Kadillak]

Great.

I have a 30" Doctor lens in a Copal #3 that is f14.5 and manageable so f19 should not be to bad. The only issue with these lenses on ULF cameras is to remember to compensate for some bellows correction that can surprise you at times. Shooting smaller formats can spoil you at times but image circles that cover the sides of single story buildings are about as cool as it gets.

[Jay M. Packer]

Jay, THAT'S what I wanted to hear! :) I thought I remembered such a feat being accomplished but wasn't sure, given my failing memory...I'm pretty sure that it was shown as an example on Grimes' web site years ago. Not sure why it isn't now. It's funny but I did get a reply from the Grimes' people that it can not be correctly mounted into a Copal 3 but has to go into a Ilex 5...
Do you know if this works only with the aluminum version (just curious since I have in fact acquired the aluminum one)? Also what size/type board so you have it on? I would like mine on a Sinar board. Is the f/19 maximum aperture (loss of a little over 1 stop) a problem at all? Do you have any photos taken WITH it to show?
Lastly - THANKS! I really appreciate your reply. Now that I know it can be done, I just need to have it done!

The pictured lens is mounted on a standard 140mm Sinar board; the flange measures about 138mm in diameter. Depending on the mechanism by which the lens is attached to the front of your camera, this could pose a problem. I use mine on a Phillips 12x20 (the only camera I have with enough bellows extension), and I had to have about 3-4 mm shaved off two sides of the flange by Grimes & Co. so it would fit on the Phillips front standard. I have no personal knowledge about the feasibility of mounting the older, heavier brass barrel version in a Copal 3 shutter. I have always suspected that the Grimes website did not feature pictures of my lens in their "examples" section because it was such a royal pain to do, and they didn't want to do any others.

The f19 aperture is not a problem. I also have both the 750mm f14.5 and 1000mm f19.5 Apo-Germinars Mr. Kadillak refers to (both factory mounted in Copal #3 shutters), and composing and focusing on the ground glass are easy. More problematic are vibration (with such a heavy lens that far from the camera's center of gravity) and depth of field. A monopod under the front standard helps with the former; the latter remains a challenge.

-- Jay

P.S. The felt-lined leather lenscap is original equipment.

[sanking]

It is definitely possible to mount a 35" Artart in a Copal #3, but you will lose about one stop of effective aperture. That might make a big difference in brightness on the ground glass in some scenes.

It would be better IMO to try to obtain a large Ilex #5 and have the 35" Artar mounted in it. Or maybe in the very large Compound. Both shutter would result in keeping the maximum aperture of the lens. The loss of aperture may not be a big deal, but why give it away if you don't have to?


Sandy King

[Richard K.]

I use mine on a Phillips 12x20

SO...YOU'RE the one that got Phillips only(?) 12x20 camera!!! :D Isn't it great (I rented it for a month once- love the magnetic film holder-downer-keep-flatter!)?
Thanks for reply re the 35" RDA. Mine will be going on 14x17 Chamonix; I expect I'll have to have the top and bottom of the flange shaved down a bit...

[Richard K.]

Sandy, would those shutters overlap the standard SInar board?

[sanking]

He only made one of the 12X20 cameras? Gee, I had a chance to buy that camera with five Phillips holders back in 2001 and let it get away. Bad decision.

Sandy King





SO...YOU'RE the one that got Phillips only(?) 12x20 camera!!! :D Isn't it great (I rented it for a month once- love the magnetic film holder-downer-keep-flatter!)?
Thanks for reply re the 35" RDA. Mine will be going on 14x17 Chamonix; I expect I'll have to have the top and bottom of the flange shaved down a bit...

[sanking]

What are the dimensions of a Sinar lens board. I had the lenses mounted on the large Toyo boards so there might be a problem if the Sinar is smaller, which I believe it is.

I have a lens in the large Compound around here somewhere and can give you its span if that would be useful.

However, I think the best shutter for this would be the big Ilex #5 and I don't have one of those on hand. Michael could give you that information, though, since he now owns the large 42" Artar that I had S. K. Grimes shutter the lens in an Ilex #5.

Sandy






Sandy, would those shutters overlap the standard SInar board?

[Jay M. Packer]

SO...YOU'RE the one that got Phillips only(?) 12x20 camera!!! :D Isn't it great (I rented it for a month once- love the magnetic film holder-downer-keep-flatter!)?
Thanks for reply re the 35" RDA. Mine will be going on 14x17 Chamonix; I expect I'll have to have the top and bottom of the flange shaved down a bit...

Richard:

Not the only Phillips 12x20. I personally have seen at least two of them; the good Dr. Phillips admits to making somewhere between four and six. The last one that sold on e-Bay went to China.

-- Jay

[Richard K.]

He only made one of the 12X20 cameras? Gee, I had a chance to buy that camera with five Phillips holders back in 2001 and let it get away. Bad decision.

Sandy King

Me too! And I'm still kicking myself! It was amazing with a fantastic magnetic perimeter strip to hold the film down flat. Apparently there were a few made, though. So, Sandy, next time one comes up for auction....

[Richard K.]

OK Michael et al...as promised, I am posting photos of the result of shuttering a 35" RDA into a Copal #3 shutter. This excellent work was performed by Kevin Brown of KHB Photografix ( http://www.khbphotografix.com/ ) near Toronto, Canada. Cost for supplying the shutter, manufacturing and calibrating an aperture scale and manufacturing, fitting and painting adapter rings and checking centering, parallelism, and spacing was very reasonable* and I am delighted with the result! :D Below are 3 photos - I was in a hurry to show you, so these aren't the greatest but you can get the idea.
*Kevin asked me to not quote the exact price since it took him longer than anticipated but he honoured the original quote. I'm sure you'd find the price (similar to Grimes) totally fair given the superb quality of work he does. The maximum aperture has been reduced by 1 1/4 stops to f/19.5 and Kevin trying to be cute, had the scale go down to f/360 at which point, the lens has the same resolution as a coke bottle end piece...
The lens in shutter is not overwhelming in size (similar to a 360 Plasmat), and with caps and mounted on the Sinar board weighs only (!) 1710g (3.8 lbs) (a 550mm XXL weighs 2460 g!); it also has a much smaller footprint on the SInar board than I was expecting, so all is good!

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/RichardK47/RDA1-1.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/RichardK47/RDA2-1.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn15/RichardK47/RDA3-1.jpg

[Michael Kadillak]

Congratulations Richard and thanks for sharing the photos. Looks like a fabulous setup. It always pleases me when someone finds a way to accomplish their objective and in the process create competition/alternatives for those of us that are looking for dedicated craftsmen to assist us with similar projects.