Newbie chooses Foma 200- which chemicals?

[zack kl]

Hi, My eyes are falling out after reading all the discussions ( but am really really thankful for this site and everybody involved). Since I'm just starting in 4x5 I arbitrarily picked Fomapan 200 or Arista edu ultra 200 ( my understanding is that they are the same) to learn on as they are relatively inexpensive and I have to start somewhere.
My question now is- what chemicals to develop with? I understand that different chemicals produce various effects but at this beginning point I just need some easy to get and fairly straight forward ones that work well with this film and if possible would work with other films as I expand out, probably toward lower iso.
As of today I don't know what developing system I will end up using.
While I'm asking.... could you also recommend an inexpensive paper and corresponding chemistry for making contact sheets. Any advice- at least good advice will very much be appreciated. Thanks , Zack

[Ron Marshall]

XTOL, D76 or HC-110 all do a fine job, are cheap and easy to get a good image with.

[jasonjoo]

I just developed a few sheets of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 (which is supposedly Foma 100) in HC-110 dil. 1:50 with very good results. The tones are beautiful and I did not notice anything unusual. The development times are bit a short, but seeing as I really don't know what I'm doing in the darkroom, this is not a huge issue for me. I just agitate the tray for 30 seconds, then for 2 seconds at each 30 second interval.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

Again, Ron's advice is good advice. Do yourself a favour and stay with one developer for quite some time. Once you get to know it, you will find that it serves you well.
You can stay with the Arista line with both the papers and chemicals. What really differs here is the papers. The chemicals are fairly standard regardless of brand. Do start up with a box of Variable Contrast Glossy RC paper and go from there.
Also, most of us would probably expose the Foma 200 at 100 or so.
Once you get started, see to that you develop the film in "exactly" the same way every time. (Same agitation pattern, exactly the same temperature.) If the contrast is too high or too low, change the developing time, nothing else. Then it's easier to find out what is wrong.

What may confuse you from reading all the info on this site is us playing with a lot of variables, trying to squeeze out something extra out of something that is normally very good to begin with. There are often many ways of doing it, but find one way and stick to that until you feel comfortable with what you're doing. Once there, you will be able to shoot a scene and get the print that you expect from it without great effort in the darkroom. If at this time you want to try something new, you are prepared for it. Also, at that time you will know enough to be able to choose paths for yourself given all that info which now puzzels you.

//Björn

[CG]

XTOL, D76 or HC-110 are great - they're pretty much the standards because they are as effective, straightforward and as dependable as are available. Stick with the standards for a while till you start finding your way.

After you get to where you can go through the basic routines in your sleep, should you want a non standard result, you'll be ready to try new stuff, and will be able to see the differences you will get.

C

[BradS]

I love HC-110 but, it is not very kind to Foma 200. I'd stay with D-76 with this film.

[zack kl]

Hi, and thanks to all.
I was settling in on the HC-110 but now wonder in what way it is unkind (nasty, abusive-VIOLENT?) to Foma 200. Any recommendations for fixer- and does one need a hardener for foma, and stop?. ( I want to order all this stuff together and maybe even shoot some film someday)
Have been following jasonjoo's adventures in the darkroom and wonder how he is finding using the tray method for developing 4x5? thanks again, Zack

[zack kl]

Have just been reading the tech. reports on Kodaks site for HC-110 and D-76. Does anybody have dilution and time recommendations for either of these developers with Foma 200 (Arista edu ultra 200) ? Thanks

[Tim Povlick]

Have just been reading the tech. reports on Kodaks site for HC-110 and D-76. Does anybody have dilution and time recommendations for either of these developers with Foma 200 (Arista edu ultra 200) ? Thanks


Hi Zack,

Welcome to the world of LF.

The development times are here:

http://www.foma.cz/Upload/foma/prilohy/F_pan_200_en.pdf

For developer I would give products from Formulatory a very close study. I used Kodak for many years with some good success some not so good. My biggest problem seemed to be when XTOL throws in the towel, it does so without much warning.

D-76 is nice stuff, especially 1:1. I would go this route:
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID=71

as it's a two part developer and it lets you control contrast depending on the mix. I know it may seem to complicate things early on, but one can always use the normal mix and then step into the fancy stuff after a couple of tries.

I use their BW-2 for Tmax film, very good results and again two part developer so one can adjust contrast. Lucky for me, they have developer for TechPan film, which I have a stock of, and the Yelow K quit making the film and developer (Tekdol). They also have fixer etc you can check out. To blur your vision more, check the technical info page for many choices of developers and other chemicals.

One piece of advice I read out here was to use a water stop bath and not the acid stop. I also run developers in one shot mode, and that makes for consistent results.

Have Fun!

_ .. --
TiM

[jasonjoo]

I love HC-110 but, it is not very kind to Foma 200. I'd stay with D-76 with this film.

Hey Brad, could you please explain a bit more on this? I bought both Arista.EDU Ultra 100 and 400 in 4x5 and have had very pleasant results with the ISO 100 film with HC-110. However, I have to admit that my eye is not trained to see tones/contrast/sharpness and such as keenly as others. But my first few sheets of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 developed in HC-110 turned out great (IMO).

Is there something different with the ISO 200 film? I only have HC-110 as my developer, but I've been looking into WD2D+ for my next developer.

Thanks,

Jason

[IanG]

Foma films are OK and can give excellent results but you need to do some tests to find your personal/true film speed and development time.

In general Foma 200 & 100 require about 2/3rd the development time of other films like Tmax, Delta, FP4 & HP5, and have a tendency to give high contrast with over development.

I use Pyrocat HD for all my films, and development times are all around 15mins @ 1+1+100. However with the Foma films 10 minutes is more appropriate, and at half the box speed (Foma 200 @100 EI).

Some developers give more effective speeds (EI) than others, HC110 or Ilfotec tend to give less speed than D76 or Xtol

Ian

[gevalia]

I love Arista Ultra EDU 200 4x5 (ei 100) in HC110 dilusion H for 11.5 minutes. Very nice midtones. The Arista Ultra EDU 100 4x5 (ei 50) is also great in HC110 dilusion H as well.

And you can't get cheaper (less expensive) then that combo.

[BradS]

Hi, and thanks to all.
I was settling in on the HC-110 but now wonder in what way it is unkind (nasty, abusive-VIOLENT?) to Foma 200.


Hey Brad, could you please explain a bit more on this? I bought both Arista.EDU Ultra 100 and 200 in 4x5 and have had very pleasant results with the ISO 100 film with HC-110. However, I have to admit that my eye is not trained to see tones/contrast/sharpness and such as keenly as others. But my first few sheets of Arista.EDU Ultra 100 developed in HC-110 turned out great (IMO).

Is there something different with the ISO 200 film? I only have HC-110 as my developer, but I've been looking into WD2D+ for my next developer.

Thanks,

Jason


I have used both Foma 100 and 200 in 4x5. In general, I can say that Foma quality is, as far as I can tell, pretty darned good. Their packaging is a little alarming at first but, I guess it works.

In my experience, the two films (Foma pan100 and foma pan 200) are like night and day however. The 100 speed film is fairly well behaved and forgiving - as one would reasonably expect from a good old fashined 100 speed film. It works fine in HC-110 and just about everything I have tried. I like it.

The 200 speed film...is another thing entirely. First off it is no where near ISO 200 in HC-110 nor in D-76 or any other ordinary deveoper. Maybe, in DDX or Microphen one might get close to 200 speed. Its real speed in normal developers seems to me to be closer to 125 or even 100. My main complaint against Foma 200 though is not its over optimistic speed rating but its tendency to be very contrasty and hard to control. Expect short development times and a very steep H-D curve. I just found it to be too much frustration to be bothered with....especially considering the real lack of speed. For my money, foma 200 is a tempermental 100-125 speed film. I much prefer Foma 100. I don't need the hassle of trying to coax results out of a film like Foma 200.

Of course, as with everything. I am just expressing my opinion based upon my experience. You may try it and love it...and that's great if you do.

Incidently, I currently use neither. I have gone back to a steady diet of Ilford FP-4 and Kodak 320TXP. When I exhaust my last box of FP-4, I'll be shooting 320TXP exclusively for a while. I'm going to get back to basics. Tri-X and D-76 (1:1).

[captainslack]

Foma/Arista.EDU 200 looks great in Xtol. I give it 5:15 in my Unicolor rotary tube.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/captainslack/2758368784/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/captainslack/2739305583/

[zack kl]

Hi,
Jasonnjoo mentioned a 1:50 dilution ratio for HC 110 , where did you get that ratio I didn't see that on the tech sheet nor did I see "dilution H" that Gevalia mentioned-- am I missing something? Also on the tech sheet for Foma and Arista both 100 and 200 they give a recommended dilution of 1:31 of HC 110 but don't give a time????

Thanks, Zack

[jasonjoo]

I have used both Foma 100 and 200 in 4x5. In general, I can say that Foma quality is, as far as I can tell, pretty darned good. Their packaging is a little alarming at first but, I guess it works.

In my experience, the two films (Foma pan100 and foma pan 200) are like night and day however. The 100 speed film is fairly well behaved and forgiving - as one would reasonably expect from a good old fashined 100 speed film. It works fine in HC-110 and just about everything I have tried. I like it.

The 200 speed film...is another thing entirely. First off it is no where near ISO 200 in HC-110 nor in D-76 or any other ordinary deveoper. Maybe, in DDX or Microphen one might get close to 200 speed. Its real speed in normal developers seems to me to be closer to 125 or even 100. My main complaint against Foma 200 though is not its over optimistic speed rating but its tendency to be very contrasty and hard to control. Expect short development times and a very steep H-D curve. I just found it to be too much frustration to be bothered with....especially considering the real lack of speed. For my money, foma 200 is a tempermental 100-125 speed film. I much prefer Foma 100. I don't need the hassle of trying to coax results out of a film like Foma 200.

Of course, as with everything. I am just expressing my opinion based upon my experience. You may try it and love it...and that's great if you do.

Incidently, I currently use neither. I have gone back to a steady diet of Ilford FP-4 and Kodak 320TXP. When I exhaust my last box of FP-4, I'll be shooting 320TXP exclusively for a while. I'm going to get back to basics. Tri-X and D-76 (1:1).

Hmm, if only I saved my receipt! I could have returned it to Freestyle for another box of 100 or even HP5. I guess I'll have to use it up and see how things turn out on my end. Does anyone have development times for Arista.EDU Ultra 200/Foma 200 in HC-110?


Hi,
Jasonnjoo mentioned a 1:50 dilution ratio for HC 110 , where did you get that ratio I didn't see that on the tech sheet nor did I see "dilution H" that Gevalia mentioned-- am I missing something? Also on the tech sheet for Foma and Arista both 100 and 200 they give a recommended dilution of 1:31 of HC 110 but don't give a time????

Thanks, Zack

Hey Zack, this dilution was made up by other photogs and I don't believe it shows up in Kodak's literature. Assuming that you use the American version of HC-110, all you need to do is mix 1 part of HC-110 (straight from syrup) to 50 parts water. I'm very new to the LF world, but I develop 4 sheets of 4x5 film with 1000ml of chemistry. So that's 20 ml of HC-110 (again, straight from the syrup) and roughly 1000ml of water. I develop for 6.5 to 7 minutes and I've had good results.

Hope that helps!

Edit: While I'm at it... I tray process 4, 4x5 sheets in a single 8x10 tray. I divided up the 8x10 tray with some small plastic nubs to keep the sheets from moving around while agitating. When I develop roll film, I usually do a pre-wash, but with sheet film, I don't. With my bathroom setup, it just gives me one more step to screw something up but so far, my negatives are turning out great! But continuing on... I agitate for the first 30 seconds continuously, then slide the tray up/down and left/right one time in 30 second intervals.


Foma/Arista.EDU 200 looks great in Xtol. I give it 5:15 in my Unicolor rotary tube.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/captainslack/2758368784/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/captainslack/2739305583/

captainslack, the negatives did turn out quite well! I'd rather not mess with another deveoper as I'm very new to the analog world so I'll have to see how things go with HC-110.

Jason

[BradS]

... I tray process 4, 4x5 sheets in a single 8x10 tray.
Jason

Tray processing as you do may make a big difference. Deep tanks with minimal agitation might even be better still....I always used the Jobo.

If it works for you, stay with it!

[jasonjoo]

I'm still saving my pennies for a Jobo 3010 and rotating base, but I always find other places to spend money on... like film!

[Peter De Smidt]

Try D76 1+1. Fine grain, decent sharpness, good film speed, reliable, easy to get...

HC110 is a good developer, but it produces significantly larger grain than D76, assuming development to the same contrast index, and that's probably not a good thing with Foma 200.

[BradS]

HC110 ... produces significantly larger grain than D76, assuming development to the same contrast index...

That's a pretty sweeping statement. One that I don't think is really universally true. It certainly depends upon which dilution of HC-110 is used. I would say and many others much smarter than I have also asserted that HC-110 dilution B gives results which are very comparable to D-76. This is less true when used in the Jobo however. With constant agitation (as with a Jobo) HC-110 seems to me to give much higher contrast. With less aggressive agitation, as with a deep tank or slosher tray, for example I would expect D-76 and HC-110 dil. B to give very nearly the same results.

HC-110 only gives big grain at the much higher dilutions that seem to be in vogue right now.

[zack kl]

Thanks to everyone. Well you all convinced me to start with arista 100 instead of 200 and HC 110 dilution B. I'll be developing in a HP combi tank.
This link is to a little chart on the kodak site "Help in selecting developers" http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/chemistry/bwFilmProcessing/selecting.jhtml

[gevalia]

Zack,

Since I'm using Arista Ultra EDU with HC110 and getting results I really like, I'll pass on a few notes:

1. Don't pick a dilution that requires you use less then 6ml of HC110 with your setup. I use the Combi tank as well and I believe I make up 1100ml to fill it.
2. I use dilution H and stand development. Dilution H is just 1/2 of dilution B's syrup (1:63 instead of 1:31) added to the water to make up the same volume.
3. With Dilution H, I agitate (using inversion) for the first minute - not agressively at all. Then every 3 minutes after that.
4. Never pick a development time with HC110 that is less then 5 minutes.
5. Make sure you calculate how much HC110 syrup (straight from the U.S. bottle) you will need based on how much you're making up for the Combi.
6. My Combi leaks when I invert to agitate. So I spent 20 minututes before I started developing to try to figure out how to hold it during inversion so it would not leak. Which is also why I make sure I make up enough developer to fill it up completely. If yours does not leak, ignore this.
7. My Combi at times also takes up to 45 seconds to completely pour in liquids. making sure the spou is turned 1/4 is necessary and it also may be necessary to push slightly on the spout sideways which lets air escape frm the tank while your filling it which IS the problem.


Here's a good page on HC110.
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html

[John Bowen]

Zack....which chemicals?

Why Developer, perhaps a stop, fix and hypo-clear. :-)

Forgive me Zack, I just couldn't help myself.

You've received some great advice here, and I'm sure if you ask 50 photographers you will likely get 20+ answers.

Enjoy your 4x5, have fun and keep asking questions :-)

[Peter De Smidt]

With less aggressive agitation, as with a deep tank or slosher tray, for example I would expect D-76 and HC-110 dil. B to give very nearly the same results.



For about 5 years, I only used HC110 dilution B, developing sheet film in trays. It doesn't give nearly the same results if density and contrast are matched with D76, at least it doesn't if you enlarge enough to see some grain. This isn't surprising, as HC110 is generally considered an acutance developer, whereas D76 is not. In any case if interested, people should run their own tests. Both are good developers.

[BradS]

For about 5 years, I only used HC110 dilution B, developing sheet film in trays. It doesn't give nearly the same results if density and contrast are matched with D76, at least it doesn't if you enlarge enough to see some grain. This isn't surprising, as HC110 is generally considered an acutance developer, whereas D76 is not. In any case if interested, people should run their own tests. Both are good developers.

Well, That is very contrary to my experience (but, I never have developed film in trays). It also contradicts Kodak's literature. Kodak compares HC-110 dil. B to D-76 as follows: HC-110 gives slightly finer grain than D-76 and slightly less acutance. Covington Innovations also clearly state this in their highly regarded exposition on HC-110.

But, I do agree that they are both excellent products and that folks should do their own tests. The differences between the two are generally slight.

[Pete Watkins]

I've read up quite a lot about these films. I mix my own Metol based developer so I'm no help there but the best advice seems to be use a water stop bath and a neutral or a non acid fixer. 200 iso@100 iso is how I use the 200.
Pete

[zack kl]

Thanks all ,and thanks again Gevalia, great info on http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html
Regards, Zack