First time processing sheet film... help please!

[jasonjoo]

Hey folks,

I was able to make 4 test exposures today with my brand new Chamonix! While I'm waiting for the sun to go down, I thought I would ask a few questions.

1) I'll be developing 4 sheets of 4x5 film in a single 8x10 tray at a time. Another photographer recommended dividing up the tray into 4 quadrants, which is what I did. I will be developing with HC-110, but am not sure how much developer I will need to process all 4 sheets. I use the 1:50 dilution by mixing 10ml of developer with 500ml of water with 120 roll film. How much developer will I need to maintain the 1:50 dilution while still being efficient and having enough developer to develop 4 sheets of film?

2) Being excited, I did not take into consideration of bellows factor while taking close up photos. I was using a 150mm lens and on one shot, the bellows was extended 9" and on the other 10" (measured from the lens board to the ground glass... is this the right way to measure the bellows draw?). Will I be able to compensate for these in development? I'm guessing that I will have to increase development time on these sheets, but will they become TOO contrasty?

Sorry for such basic questions!

Thanks in advance,

Jason

[jasonjoo]

http://www.pbase.com/jasonjoo/image/101431947/medium.jpg

Here's an image of the setup.

[MIke Sherck]

Is your 1:50 ratio the same as Kodak's dilution E? If so, the capacity of Dilution E is 5 sheets of 8x10 film per US gallon. That translates to 20 sheets of 4x5 film per gallon. Since there are 128 ounces in a gallon, you'll need (128 / 20) about 6.5 ounces of developer per 4x5 sheet of film. That translates to about 192 milliliters per sheet, at your dilution E. (Kodak's technical publication for HC110 is at: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.jhtml?id=0.2.24.14.18.14.7.22.14&lc=en) for English. However, don't just put 200ml of developer in a tray, develop one film, and throw the developer out and put in another 200ml. Just fill the tray with enough developer to process all the films you want to process and throw the developer out when you're done. You want there to be enough solution in the tray to comfortably cover the sheet of film; you don't want some parts of the film to not get replenished with fresh developer when you are agitating it.

Since you've never developed sheet film in trays before, and I get the distinct impression that you're new to large format as well, I'd suggest that you eliminate a few variables to start with and develop the first few sheets one sheet at a time. That will eliminate most chances of scratching your film, give you immediate feedback from one sheet before developing the next, and otherwise give you the best odds of coming up with a nice negative and reinforcing all these good vibes you're currently feeling.

You can compensate for forgetting the bellows extension factor somewhat in development. By neglecting bellows extension you have essentially underexposed the film. Depending on the film and developer, some underexposure can be at least partially compensated for by developing for longer than the standard time. Yes, this will increase contrast. Now you see the wisdom in developing one sheet at a time! Develop your first film using your best guess, and evaluate the completely processes and DRY film before processing the next one. If you're new to this film/developer combination, you'll be making educated guesses as to what adjustments to make for the next sheet. Zone System fans just had minor strokes at the thought, but they'll recover. You'll be learning quickly and having fun, so it's ok for this time.

Good luck!

Mike

PS: it's late here and I've been hustling a jackhammer all day, busting concrete. Better check my math before you do anything important!

[jasonjoo]

Thanks Mike. I just got out of the darkroom (read bathroom) and it turns out I botched my first batch of film! I've developed maybe 20 rolls of 120 film before this, but 4x5 is a whole new ball game.

I made so many mistakes in there I'd rather not discuss it! ;)

I'll have to give this another go... Working in the dark was rather difficult. I'm used to using an inversion tank in the light. Good thing they were just practice shots!

Edit: Strangely, the photo that I used 10" of bellows draw turned out the best... even though I didn't compensate for it either in camera or in development. I'm not sure what went wrong (too many things), so I'll have to try this again :)

[Vaughn]

Hello Jason,

The formula for the bellows factor is extension squared divided by the focal length squared. Your measurement method is fine. 150mm = close enough to 6"

So you have 9x9 divided by 6x6 = 81/36 = 2.25 or a bit more than one stop extra exposure needed

Your 10" extension is 10x10/6x6 = 2.8 or close enough to a stop and a half extra exposure needed.

So either one is not significantly great as to totally mess up the shot. How you originally metered the shots, and the actual ASA (ISO) of the film using your developer and developing method will have as great of an effect on the results as will applying the bellows factor properly. I'll toss in the reciprocity failure if your exposures were greater than a second as a factor to consider also.

So I would re-shoot one set-up, apply the bellows factor, and from there bracket a couple stops each way and develop one at a time. Keep good notes so if you get a good neg, you will know what you did right!

have fun!

Vaughn

[jasonjoo]

Hey Vaughn,

Could you please explain how 2.25 translates to "more than one stop" and 2.8 translates to 1.5 stops?

I used an incident meter to take a reading of each scene. There were really a lot of things going wrong in the darkroom, so I can't quite pin point what went wrong where. I'll have to give this another go... but yet another obstacle lies before me. Loading film into the holders! The film I did the tests on were pre-loaded, so that could have been yet another variable. It seems that I may have bitten off more than I can chew :)

Jason

[Vaughn]

Sure -- the bellows factor is a multiplier. A Bellows factor of 2 means twice the exposure is needed...which is the same as opening up one stop (for example...going from f/22 to f/16...or doubling the exposure time from 1/2 second to 1 second).

So a factor of 2 is one stop more. (so 2.25 is just a bit more than 1 stop.)
A factor of 4 is two stops more (going from f/22 to f/11).
A factor of 2.8 is close to 3...which in my mind is close enough to halfway between a factor of 2 and 4...so it is halfway between 1 stop and 2 stops...1.5 stops.

With B&W film this is close enough for gov't work!

An incident meter should give you fairly consistant results. And as long as the contrast of the scene is not too extreme, it will serve you well.

When our student load 4x5 film for the first time, they tend to be a bit nervous. I just tell them that it is a lot easier than loading 35mm film on reels...and generally they come back and confirm it. Just make sure that the emulsion side ends up facing outward, and all will be well. Having the film in backwards will yield a reversed image that is very underexposed.

If you are lucky you will make a bunch of mistakes early...then they will be out of the way!

Vaughn

[jasonjoo]

Hey Vaughn,

I appreciate the help! Thanks for clearing up the bit on bellow factors. I just dusted off about 10 film holders and I'm heading into the darkroom to start loading the film. Lucky for me Arista.EDU Ultra is cheap! I hope I don't botch this :)

As for the "practice" shots... I have a feeling something was wrong with the film to begin with. I noticed that there were 2 different types of film in the holders too, but it still does not explain the results I got. Live and learn!

Jason

[Lenny Eiger]

2) Being excited, I did not take into consideration of bellows factor while taking close up photos. Will I be able to compensate for these in development? I'm guessing that I will have to increase development time on these sheets, but will they become TOO contrasty?


Congratulations, welcome to large format. And the answer is No!

There is an old adage, expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. It is the basis of the zone system.

What this means is that the exposure must fill in the shadow amount - the detail comes in in the first three minutes of development - and you can develop for a year and you won't get any more (you might get a bunch more base fog, but no detail.)

However, the highlights, or how far they are in density from the shadows is controlled by the development. Increasing development pushes the highlights out, makes them more dense in comparison. This is also called increasing contrast.

Developing longer increases contrast. There is no such thing as pushing film. Doesn't actually happen. Shooting at ISO 1600, for example, doesn't mean you can get any more detail in the shadows, but if you develop for it you can spread out the contrast to make it look normal... except for no shadow detail.

If you think of it this way, you will get the zone system much easier, and appreciate the control of the single sheet aspect of large format.

Manufacturer's recommendations for film speed should be tested for the kind of print you want to make. They are usually incorrect. Film speed increasing with development? I don't believe it for a minute - and it isn't a helpful way to look at things...

Bottom line is that the shadow detail is controlled by your exposure and the contrast (or highlights) is controlled by development.

Lenny

[Vaughn]

Hey Vaughn,

I appreciate the help! Thanks for clearing up the bit on bellow factors. I just dusted off about 10 film holders and I'm heading into the darkroom to start loading the film. Lucky for me Arista.EDU Ultra is cheap! I hope I don't botch this :)

As for the "practice" shots... I have a feeling something was wrong with the film to begin with. I noticed that there were 2 different types of film in the holders too, but it still does not explain the results I got. Live and learn!

Jason

Different films could have given you results all over the map (different ASAs, different development times, different resiprocity failure rates, etc). Could have been one to three stops difference in sensitivity...say one was a 100ASA "conventional" film and the other a 'T-grain" 400ASA film, for example. A good exposure on one would have been 2 of 3 stops over or under exposed on the other. But they were good for practicing developing in the dark -- and got you thinking about all the factors involved...not a waste of film nor time!

Vaughn...

PS...if you did not know what film you used, how did you know what ASA to set on your incident light meter?

[Joanna Carter]

I'm used to using an inversion tank in the light. Good thing they were just practice shots!
Why don't you get yourself an inversion tank for 4x5 film then? The CombiPlan is a great option and can make life just as easy as for roll film.

[John Bowen]

Jason,

Let me recommend you acquire a copy of Bruce Barlow's "Finely Focused" book on CD. Bruce covers all the basics from loading film holders to developing film in trays to determining your personal film speed and personal development times. Bruce even includes the tools you will need and shows you how to use them. The 300+ page book also has over 50 exercises to help you improve your photography. All this for $25 (incluidng shipping). Check out www.circleofthesunproductions.com

Welcome to Large Format photography....you'll be shooting an 8x10 before you know it!

[davemiller]

I develop 5x4 and 10x8 in a 10x8 Paterson Orbital daylight processing tray. For the 5x4 film I use a tray in which I have fitted divider posts that reach to the underside of the lid. This is because I have found that the film sheets can override the standard pegs. For both 4 sheets of 5x4 and a single 10x8 film sheet I use 200ml of Prescysol developer with constant agitation for 8 minutes. This for Ilford Delta 400, Ilford HP5, Maco IR film, and Wephota 100. The results print easily.

[jasonjoo]

Congratulations, welcome to large format. And the answer is No! (snip) ...

Lenny

Hey Lenny, thanks for the explanation. While I do not doubt your expertise, it is a little confusing because even in this thread alone, there are differing opinions! I'll keep what you said in mind for the next time however!


Different films could have given you results all over the map (different ASAs, different development times, different resiprocity failure rates, etc). Could have been one to three stops difference in sensitivity...say one was a 100ASA "conventional" film and the other a 'T-grain" 400ASA film, for example. A good exposure on one would have been 2 of 3 stops over or under exposed on the other. But they were good for practicing developing in the dark -- and got you thinking about all the factors involved...not a waste of film nor time!

Vaughn...

PS...if you did not know what film you used, how did you know what ASA to set on your incident light meter?

Vaughn, I was told from the seller that it was loaded with FP4. It turned out that 5 sheets were FP4 and a single sheet was I believe Foma 200. I rated the ISO at 125 for both sheets (didn't know the Foma was in there!). However, I took 2 photos of the same subject with a sheet of FP4 and Foma 200 and they were both VERY over exposed. Again, I was making mistakes left and right, so I can't put the blame on the film, so I'll just have to give this another go :) . BTW, loading the film wasn't bad at all! At one point I forgot I loaded both sides of a Fidelity Elite holder and tried shoving another sheet of film in, but it just wouldn't budge. I had to toss out those sheets fearing that they were scratched up :)

Jason

[jasonjoo]

Why don't you get yourself an inversion tank for 4x5 film then? The CombiPlan is a great option and can make life just as easy as for roll film.

Hey Joanna, I've been considering my options and for now, tray processing is the most economical. I really went a little trigger happy when buying the Chamonix and a pair of lenses and in that moment, I did not allocate any money for a JOBO tank or even a combi plan system. I'll have to save my pennies before investing in a drum tank... I'm leaning towards a JOBO 3010.


Jason,

Let me recommend you acquire a copy of Bruce Barlow's "Finely Focused" book on CD. Bruce covers all the basics from loading film holders to developing film in trays to determining your personal film speed and personal development times. Bruce even includes the tools you will need and shows you how to use them. The 300+ page book also has over 50 exercises to help you improve your photography. All this for $25 (incluidng shipping). Check out www.circleofthesunproductions.com

Welcome to Large Format photography....you'll be shooting an 8x10 before you know it!

Thanks John. I've purchased a copy of Steve Simmon's book. I'll take a look at Bruce Barlow's book, but since I'm tight on cash, I may have to pass. $25 bucks will pay for another 50 sheets of Arista.EDU Ultra :)


I develop 5x4 and 10x8 in a 10x8 Paterson Orbital daylight processing tray. For the 5x4 film I use a tray in which I have fitted divider posts that reach to the underside of the lid. This is because I have found that the film sheets can override the standard pegs. For both 4 sheets of 5x4 and a single 10x8 film sheet I use 200ml of Prescysol developer with constant agitation for 8 minutes. This for Ilford Delta 400, Ilford HP5, Maco IR film, and Wephota 100. The results print easily.

Dave, I noticed this as well. One of my sheets simply fell out of the 8x10 tray when I was dumping the developer. I put one hand over the sheets while dumping, but this one may have slipped by unnoticed. I'll have to make some modifications. Thanks for the tip!

Jason

[Lenny Eiger]

Hey Lenny, thanks for the explanation. While I do not doubt your expertise, it is a little confusing because even in this thread alone, there are differing opinions! I'll keep what you said in mind for the next time however!


Jason,
I have a lot of experience. I won't go into it, its not the point. The point is don't trust anyone. If someone says something to me on a technical front, I say, hmmm, interesting. Then I go test it and see if I get the same result. Especially here - there are lots of differing opinions, as you say - and some of them you won't be able to reproduce.

One one of your next shots, take the shot, then take another one, say two stops underexposed. Develop that piece of film a lot longer and see how it goes...

I laugh at all those development time sheets, for every developer and film combination. I know those people are trying to help, but the long and short of it is that you will develop your own times. Your agitation will be just a little different from everyone else's - and so your time must adjust. After you move it around a bit, you will settle in to what works for you - that's the idea.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

I develop 5x4 and 10x8 in a 10x8 Paterson Orbital daylight processing tray. For the 5x4 film I use a tray in which I have fitted divider posts that reach to the underside of the lid. This is because I have found that the film sheets can override the standard pegs. For both 4 sheets of 5x4 and a single 10x8 film sheet I use 200ml of Prescysol developer with constant agitation for 8 minutes. This for Ilford Delta 400, Ilford HP5, Maco IR film, and Wephota 100. The results print easily.

Dave,

We don't have this kind of film over here. We use 4x5 and 8x10. ;-)

I always wondered where this split came - why do some people, businesses or countries put the larger number first and some put it last. Probably one of those metric/non-metric things...

Lenny

[jasonjoo]

Jason,
I have a lot of experience. I won't go into it, its not the point. The point is don't trust anyone. If someone says something to me on a technical front, I say, hmmm, interesting. Then I go test it and see if I get the same result. Especially here - there are lots of differing opinions, as you say - and some of them you won't be able to reproduce.

One one of your next shots, take the shot, then take another one, say two stops underexposed. Develop that piece of film a lot longer and see how it goes...

I laugh at all those development time sheets, for every developer and film combination. I know those people are trying to help, but the long and short of it is that you will develop your own times. Your agitation will be just a little different from everyone else's - and so your time must adjust. After you move it around a bit, you will settle in to what works for you - that's the idea.

Lenny

Thanks Lenny. I'll be sure to try that quick test and see how the negatives turn out. I currently have a stack of film holders sitting next to me and the film is itching to be exposed! I'll make some exposures this week and head back into the darkroom over the weekend.

Jason

[robert fallis]

Arista ortho film is cheap, get some of this and you can develop under a red safe light, so you can see what you are doing, the ASA I use for it is 5, so in bright sunlight 1/5th of a second at f16, keep this constant and play with develpoer and development times

bob

[davemiller]

Dave,

We don't have this kind of film over here. We use 4x5 and 8x10. ;-)

I always wondered where this split came - why do some people, businesses or countries put the larger number first and some put it last. Probably one of those metric/non-metric things...

Lenny

It can be a nuisance; we have to have special trays made so that the film doesn't hang over the sides.:)

[Charles Hohenstein]

It can be a nuisance; we have to have special trays made so that the film doesn't hang over the sides.:)

Don't you guys call them dishes? :)

[Pat Kearns]

Why not get a rotarty drum such as a Jobo, Unicolor, Beseler, or BTZS tubs for developing your film. The only time you will need to be in the dark is to load the drum. Everything else is done in room light. There is an article on using a Unicolor drum on the LF homepage. These can be purchased quite cheaply on the auction sites. Worth taking a look at.

[jasonjoo]

I hope to own a JOBO tank some day but I just do not have the money at the moment. So while I'm saving my pennies, I'll be tray processing!

[robert fallis]

there's an artical somewhere on the web, about making development tubes from waste water pipe , the stuff plumbers use for sink and bath outflows its ideal for 5x4 google should throw it up, then you can develop in the light

bob

[davemiller]

Don't you guys call them dishes? :)

I was trying to talk American. :)

[snip]

... but yet another obstacle lies before me. Loading film into the holders! The film I did the tests on were pre-loaded, so that could have been yet another variable. It seems that I may have bitten off more than I can chew :)

Jason


Use the negatives you did'nt like from your first exposure/development excersise to practice loading in daylight, then move on to practicing in the dark and you'll soon have it pegged, it really is not the hardest part.

//J

[jasonjoo]

Use the negatives you did'nt like from your first exposure/development excersise to practice loading in daylight, then move on to practicing in the dark and you'll soon have it pegged, it really is not the hardest part.

//J

I actually sacrificed a few sheets to practice in the daylight, but I found it strangely easier to load in the dark. I even closed my eyes while practicing but even then I was having a hard time. But while in the dark, things just seemed... easier. Strange!

But I loaded up 11 holders and I'm itching to put them through their paces!

Thanks for the help and suggestions folks!

Jason

[MIke Sherck]

I was trying to talk American. :)

It helps if you're drunk. ;)

"...separated by a common language." etc. (George Bernard Shaw.)

Mike

[Alan S]

Actually for 4x5 film I use 1 1/2 qt pyrex glass bread pans. The beauty of this is that the sheets of film won't quite settle on the bottom and you can easily get your fingers underneath to shuffle the film. %00ml of soln. is plenty!. They clean up easy and so far don't stain. One pan for pre-soak, one for deveoper,acid and fix. At the end I use the presoak pan(cleaned/rinsed) as the wash pan! This info is from Andy Eads, a member on this list. Works fantastic! alan

[CG]

... %00ml of soln. is plenty!. ...

You mean " 5))" ml.

C

[Alan S]

Opps my mistake! Typing is not my style! Yes it should have read '500 ml' . Thanks for catching that!

[jasonjoo]

Well, I'll be going back into the darkroom in a few hours. Due to the fiasco the first time, I have a bit of trepidation but we'll have to see how things go. While I'm still developing "practice" shots, I still hope that these will turn out OK because I actually want to use them!

Wish me luck guys! I'll report back in after a few hours :)

Jason

(Oh, this time I'll be developing store bought Arista.EDU Ultra 100 in HC-110. I loaded these myself, so that's yet another factor to add in. I hope I loaded them emulsion side up :P )