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View Full Version : Ebony SW45 vs. Shen-Hao TFC45-IIB



Anders_HK
4-Aug-2008, 07:22
Hi,

This is one of my first posts here. I used to shoot Velvia on 135, but now primarily medium format Leaf digital back. Exploring the idea of 4x5, due view and different way of working please help me with following advises:

I am keen on using my Leaf digital back for stitching panoramas and maybe even the full 4x5 inches. And, yes... trying out Velvia 50 in 4x5 would be great too :).

How do above mentioned cameras compare in sturdiness and perhaps foremost in their control of depth of focus, which is important for wide angle lenses when using digital sensor instead of film?

I have looked at and played with the Shen-Hao in Shanghai, and also a used Ebony 23S I saw in store. The last appeared to have slight misalignment problems in focusing. The Shen-Hao seemes like a good tool, while materials on Ebony appear more luxurious, yet...most important are photographic abilities. Any advises please? Especially on the control of depth of focus, critical to wide angle digital.

Perhaps widest lens to use will be 58 or 65mm.

Much thanks!

Regards
Anders

Mike Fiction
5-Aug-2008, 07:40
Ebony and Shen-Hao are a different league of camera. The Ebony is by far the better (and much more expensive) camera. With good glass, they will both take excellent photos, but the Ebony is just a much more elegant and precise design.

If I had the money I'd get the Ebony, but I don't - so I got a Tachihara instead :)

Brian Vuillemenot
5-Aug-2008, 08:35
I disagree with the above posting about the Ebony being "in a different league". As you mentioned, the Ebony has the nicer wood and is more luxurious looking. The Shen Hao doesn'y have quite the level of trim, but is dependable and sturdy. Buying an Ebony is similar to buying an expensive car or watch. A less expensive car or watch will get you there or tell time just as well, but perhaps won't be as impressive to your friends. I would definately go with the Shen-Hao, especially as a starter camera. I use mine with a 58mm lens with the regular bellows, and, although it's a bit tight, it works fine.

Mike Fiction
5-Aug-2008, 09:20
Brian it's not just the harder wood - the metal is different (aluminum alloy vs. titanium) - the Ebony has more movement (with significantly more front rise), it's much more sturdy and the Ebony bellows is a thing of beauty. Tighten down an Ebony and try to wiggle the standards, compare that to the Shen Hao. The Shen-Hao is just not as solid or precise a machine - and to top it off, the Ebony is slightly lighter.

I'm not saying the Shen-Hao is not the best option for the money, it is for most - I would go for the Shen-Hao as a good WA camera myself - but with money as no barrier, the Ebony is the winner. The only thing the Shen-Hao has on the Ebony is cost, in every other way the Ebony is superior.

You're right, the Ebony's also prettier, but I didn't consider that when comparing, nor did I mention it's look at all above, but I suppose that's another thing to add to the list of pros and cons.

Robert Fisher
5-Aug-2008, 10:49
IMHO (and having owned a SW45 and other Ebony bodies), the SW45 is a great $400-$500 camera. It is grossly over priced and in reality a cheap/flimsy body with a designer label attached. The US dealer that sold me the camera agreed with my assessment after the sale.

Mike Fiction
5-Aug-2008, 17:45
Robert, you are absolutely right about them being overpriced - I will completely agree with you there :)

Greg Lockrey
5-Aug-2008, 18:08
Robert, you are absolutely right about them being overpriced - I will completely agree with you there :)

Yes, but you only need to buy it once. ;) ;)

Henry Ambrose
5-Aug-2008, 18:30
Wow.
I went from an Arca Swiss to an Ebony SW45 and never missed a thing except a lot of weight and bulk. Its been a great camera for me for 5-6 years now. The camera is quite rigid, mine is well aligned and has given me no problems as all. As to value, it is a bit pricey but there's really nothing to directly compare to that I've ever seen. Within in the realm of its capabilities its a wonderful camera to use.

Anders_HK
5-Aug-2008, 20:14
Having played with the Shen-Hao TFC45-IIB in the Shen-Hao shop in Shanghai, I must say I am impressed, it feels sturdy and like a pleasure to work with, although yet... I only played with the camera and have not photographed 4x5 yet!

Above said, my intent is to use it with a digital back on a sliding adapter to stitch primarily panoramics. If the quality of workmanship of Ebony is not only skin deap like some luxury cars, but rather like a BMW that is a refined precision machine that is made for its intended use of driving. Thus does the SW45 indeed like a BMW offer more precision than the TFC-IIB? For digital use that may be an important factor.

Price wise there is difference, still even when considering that I likely need upgrade groundglss on the Shen-Hao. Most important though is which one will function as a precision tool for my use.

Much thanks for advises.

Regards
Anders

Greg Lockrey
5-Aug-2008, 20:21
You really have to put your intended lens and back combination on both cameras. I know with my SV45Ti and a 6x17 pano back I am able to move the wide angle lenses in very close where I couldn't do the same with my other 45's. You may not have that ability with the Shen- Hao. The way I look at buying cameras is that I intend to use them for the rest of my life, so if I amortize the cost over that period, it really doesn't mean a thing about initial cost. More expensive cameras tend to hold their value better too.

Frank Petronio
5-Aug-2008, 21:04
Velvia 50 shot on a 4x5 is impressive -- But you might find that a 6x4.5cm digital back on a 4x5 is a huge pain in the ass (I think so). The scale of the film to the sensor size is so different that what is precise on a 4x5 scale is sloppy on the micro 6x4.5 scale.

You might do better getting a nice inexpensive 4x5 like the Shen, plus a top quality lens or two, and shoot only 4x5 film with that outfit. These packages sell for under $1500 and they hold their resale, unlike digital. Then you can see the differences between film and your DCB and decide what works best for the situations you want to photograph. You can always upgrade to an Ebony if you like 4x5.

If you insist on a 4x5 to also use for digital, then you really should be looking at compact cameras like the Linhof Technika 3000 (good for wide angles) and the Arca-Swiss F-series. Being a strong, precise metal cameras they are always going to be a more solid digital back platform than any of the wooden cameras, even the very nice Ebony.

If the image quality of the Leaf is satisfactory after you try 4x5 film, there are many other options for medium-format digital and film type cameras with shift, rise, and other view camera movements... search for Alpa, Silvestri, Cambo, and more. Many people use these along with their medium format SLR with their digital backs, especially with wider lenses.

Anders_HK
5-Aug-2008, 23:21
Velvia 50 shot on a 4x5 is impressive -- But you might find that a 6x4.5cm digital back on a 4x5 is a huge pain in the ass (I think so). The scale of the film to the sensor size is so different that what is precise on a 4x5 scale is sloppy on the micro 6x4.5 scale.

You might do better getting a nice inexpensive 4x5 like the Shen, plus a top quality lens or two, and shoot only 4x5 film with that outfit. These packages sell for under $1500 and they hold their resale, unlike digital. Then you can see the differences between film and your DCB and decide what works best for the situations you want to photograph. You can always upgrade to an Ebony if you like 4x5.

If you insist on a 4x5 to also use for digital, then you really should be looking at compact cameras like the Linhof Technika 3000 (good for wide angles) and the Arca-Swiss F-series. Being a strong, precise metal cameras they are always going to be a more solid digital back platform than any of the wooden cameras, even the very nice Ebony.

If the image quality of the Leaf is satisfactory after you try 4x5 film, there are many other options for medium-format digital and film type cameras with shift, rise, and other view camera movements... search for Alpa, Silvestri, Cambo, and more. Many people use these along with their medium format SLR with their digital backs, especially with wider lenses.

Frank,

The scale of 4x5 (125mm x 100mm) is not much different from my 44mm x 33mm sensor when using it to stitch 120mm x 44mm as example. Diagonal of 125mm x 100mm is 160mm and of 120mm x 44mm is 128mm. My purpose will be to use wide angle lenses which have a large depth of field. Critical is thus the corresponding shallow depth of focus and this can complicate. Should a 4x5 camera not be capable of such fine focus, theoretically it seems it would be possible to use it for a rough focus, then to use e.g. Fotoman Helical Focus Mount for fine tune adjustments, thus focusing the lens similar to a 35mm lens. I never tried of course...

To be frank, I believe a metal camera is too heavy, especially if 4x5 (which is preferred for panoramic, and a requirment in order to be able to mount a sliding adapter). In comparison the Ebony and Shen-Hao I have mentioned have very rigid rear standards that only offer rise or fall as rear movements. Those are non folding cameras which makes them rigid. Please look at the designs of them. A mono rail camera if not designed for the weight of a digital back may well prove more flimsy, since its rear standard also permits tilt. The SW45 and TFC45-IIB are also wide angle cameras which assumably should help in focusing, or at least will enable lens movements also with wide lenses.

As for the Alpa, Silvestri, Cambo, etc, although designed for digital they do not permit sufficient movements for panoramic, nor (apart from new ones just announced) any shift or tilts. Also... I think $$$ will be more than the Ebony for such a system... and I am unsure if all of them work with traditional lenses.

With above... possible the cameras I have mentioned are the only options for me, if... at all it will work well.

It does seem film would be simpler, just insert into the 4x5 and one shot... unfortunate this world is very digital. Even when finding film and lab to process... a professional drum scan is not cheap for 6x7... 4x5 is larger...

Regards
Anders

Frank Petronio
6-Aug-2008, 08:19
While I am sure there is somebody using 4x5 Ebony and Shen-Hao non-folders with digital backs, I think most photographers abandon them after experimentation in preference for something like the Cambo Wide RS with a sliding stitching back -- but just do a search and hang out on the Luminous Landscape medium format digital forum for confirmation.

While the diagonal of your stitched image is close to 4x5, you still have to focus and make movements for a good exposure on a 43x33mm chip. This is why, when you do see a medium format back on a view camera, you often see a geared movement type, like the Linhof M679. I think the coarser movements of the 4x5 field cameras will be unsatisfactory, at least for tilt and swing, but I haven't tried it either ;-) Good luck!

Peter De Smidt
6-Aug-2008, 19:58
Frank's right about the difficulties with using a digital back. I occasionally use one on a Sinar P2, which is a really great geared film camera. For digital, though, it would be better if the geared movements were more precise, which is why, no doubt, that Sinar makes the P3. Using a digital back on a regular field camera would be quite the pain.

Rainer
10-Aug-2008, 14:40
I think the Ebony SW45 is great for shooting film. Itīs small and lightweight and thatīs what i like about it.
Using a MFDB on it - especially and also for stitching - is a pain somehow.

What about using your existing MF system, getting a RRS or Novoflex panorama head and a copy of PTGui software? Works great with 35mm DSLRīs and will also with your digital MF...