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jim kitchen
27-Jul-2008, 19:45
Folks,

Eighteen months ago I inadvertently started to collect a few experimental images with my 8X10 camera...

I have three final image formats that I use to present my images within a gallery environment, where the first format is the traditional format entirely based upon the shape of the 8X10 negative be it a landscape or portrait orientation, a second cropped landscape format I call the Da Vinci format based upon the Golden Ratio or Golden Rectangle, and a new format to my own presentation group which everyone seems to describe as a variation on the letterbox format, and where the latter seems to fit a few of my landscape images rather well. The latter format, the letterbox format, happened to be the focus of my long experiment.

Occasionally, I would encounter a scene that looked interesting through my homemade viewing card designed to accommodate the 8X10 negative, so much so, that I would unpack and set up my equipment, choose a suitable focal length lens as determined by my viewing card, and make an effort to capture the image unfolding in front of me.

One day, for whatever reason, I decided to capture two images, creating a marginal overlap within the two images, and I decided that I would try to marry the images together through the digital process. My darkroom days never allowed me to think, let alone believe that I had the skill set to properly marry two images together as one image, but the light room process changed that thought process quickly. So, my simple experiment began by capturing the side-by-side images within the scene, where I overlapped the landscape captures by a few degrees, and where I kept my camera level and properly focused for each image, and although the idea seemed to be a simple exercise, I did not realize how complex the process would become until I started the digital marriage.

I started with a preview rgb scan for each image on my Epson scanner, where I wet mounted the images creating a 3000ppi rgb digital file for each image, and where I finally I brought the digital files into Photoshop to conduct the test. I made the digital files this large, because it is a continuous habit of mine to secure a preview file with this information before a selected image is drum scanned, and I really wanted to see how Photoshop within CS2 would handle files this large in the process while using the Epson wet mounted scans. I do not have a powerful Mac, but it has enough ram, the old style PPC architecture, two slower processors, and enough external hard drive space for a scratch disk. I also wanted to discover what the possible physical boundaries may be with my created image within Photoshop.

That said, here is my simple processing and scanning procedure:

1. I exposed each negative with identical exposures, as well as could be allowed;
2. I did not shoot in direct sunlight, but preferred to shoot in the late evening, where the lighting was evenly distributed throughout the scenes;
3. I processed the negatives together;
4. I scanned the images, creating and saving an rgb digital file at 3000 ppi for each negative;
5. I tried to properly align each negative while scanning, but I found that a small misalignment could be rectified in Photoshop, with minor rotation adjustments;

Here is my simple Photoshop procedure:

1. I created a new Photoshop file that had enough canvas to accommodate and to act as the repository for both digital images;
2. I changed each original scanned file in Photoshop into a layer, using "layer from background" menu command;
3. I dragged each layer into the new Photoshop file;
4. I placed a "new guide" on each horizontal boundary of the layers for alignment and overlapping issues;
5. I change the opacity of one layer to identify my common focal point within the two images, while overlapping the common area and reset the opacity when done;
6. I made a choice regarding which image layer happens to be the dominant top layer;
7. I tweak and twist the two layers until I believe I have a correct alignment within the two layers common overlap area;
8. I continuously experiment with the simple marriage trying to eliminate any parallax issues between the two images;
9. I carefully erased the dominant top layer to properly fit the bottom layer. If I make a gross error while editing, I delete the dominant layer and drag in a fresh one;
10. I do not marry the layers together before I crop the two layers into a format that is equivalent to 8"X20";
11. I save the new unmarried and cropped layer Photoshop file as a "Large Format Document" as the master file;
12. I open this saved master file, marry the two original layers together, and again I make a copy and save the file as a "Large Format Document" working file, going forward;
13. I modify and correct the new working "Large Format Document" Photoshop digital file, before I collapse the adjustment layers of this file into a workable "tiff" file, required by the printer;
14. I make and save a copy of the digital file from the "psb" format to a printable "tiff" format;
15. I print the file...

For those of you that might not know, and forgive me if you do, but a large format document can be 300K pixels by 300k pixels when saved, complete with layers.

Here are my Photoshop discoveries:

1. my original scanned files were 3.54GB each;
2. my married and cropped 8X20 format files created a digital file that was 5.18GB, and borrowed 23.8GB from my scratch disk, for a total file size of 28.98GB;
3. Photoshop definitely requires at least 500GB of free disk space to properly act as a scratch disk with files this large;
4. Photoshop could quickly run out HD space if you do not have 500GB, because Photoshop saves files for the "undo" action;
5. you should save the file to another location in another HD partition, compared to a location in the scratch disk area, because Photoshop will run out of useable disk space;
6. the time to save the "psb" file on my computer took one hour;
7. the time to open the "psb" file on my computer took one hour;
8. Photoshop converts the image into a useable form while saving and opening the digital file, therefore the lengthy open and save times;
9. the file size is not for anyone without patience, because the file size is large, and Photoshop's reaction time is proportionate to the file size;
10. my tool action time took approximately five, ten, or even twenty minutes for each action, before I could review the result;
11. the merged file, prepared for printing, did not require any sharpening;
12. I did not try nor will I try the Photoshop merge function with files this large, or even a smaller file;
13. Photoshop did not choke...

Here are my issues:

1. I periodically had a second negative that was unusable because of wind movement;
2. this process really slows you down because of my selected file sizes;
3. selecting the proper choice of focal length and, or the angle of view for the initial image capture;
4. finding a suitable overlap focal point between the two images while in the field;
5. continuously negotiating with the scene's changing light and, or a possible high contrast scene.

What I enjoyed:

1. the final image quality and detail is rather breathtaking...

What I would like:

1. an 8X20 view camera back for my Ebony;
2. a scanner that can handle an 8X20 negative;
3. a faster computer;
4. less wind;
5. someone to carry my equipment while hiking in the mountains;
6. more patience...

I discovered that Photoshop, my Epson scanner, and my older Mac can accommodate this process, albeit the process is very slow, and I also discovered that this process opened the door to many other image possibilities that could be great fun too. I now carry a viewing card that illustrates the 8X20 format, along with my 8X10 viewing card. There are times that I wonder what the final image would look like if I had the original negatives drum scanned...

I believe many folks may not exercise this avenue to create a larger file, which created these letterbox format finished images, but I decided to see whether this film and digital process would work, and to see whether the finished image warranted the effort.

Anyway, I believe the process is a successful process, and I like the result... :)


jim k

Btw, if you look close enough, within the first image, there is a squirrel in the midcentre grouping of trees, with two peanuts in his cheeks...


A few of my married images are here:



http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/06090107_letterbox.jpg

Sibbald Creek Pond, Alberta...


http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/85021511_letterbox.jpg

Castle Mountain, Banff National Park, Alberta...


http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/07060807_letterbox.jpg

Bow Lake, Jasper National Park, Alberta...

Colin Graham
27-Jul-2008, 19:50
Wow, great work Jim. Thanks for sharing the process. And I think I recognize that squirrel.

Really Big Cameras
27-Jul-2008, 20:17
Jim,

Great post and great work. Thanks for sharing both your technique and your images. I just love these kinds of "How-To" posts - always have and always will.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras (http://www.reallybigcameras.com/)

sanking
27-Jul-2008, 20:39
Folks,

Eighteen months ago I inadvertently started to collect a few experimental images with my 8X10 camera...

I started with a preview rgb scan for each image on my Epson scanner, where I wet mounted the images creating a 3000ppi rgb digital file for each image, and where I finally I brought the digital files into Photoshop to conduct the test. I made the digital files this large, because it is a continuous habit of mine to secure a preview file with this information before a selected image is drum scanned, and I really wanted to see how Photoshop within CS2 would handle files this large in the process while using the Epson wet mounted scans. I do not have a powerful Mac, but it has enough ram, the old style PPC architecture, two slower processors, and enough external hard drive space for a scratch disk. I also wanted to discover what the possible physical boundaries may be with my created image within Photoshop.

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Jim,

Great description of your method.

I have a few questions. First, how large are you making your prints from the stitched files? I am asking because you are scanning at such a high resolution. When I do this I rarely ever find the need to scan a 7X17 or 12X20 negative at over 1200-1600 spi, and you could make some really huge prints from a 1600 spi scan.

Second, why are you scanning in RGB? I know that there are advantages to RGB in that you can adjust the channel to minimize grain and maximize sharpness, but I have never found much benefit from this with negatives this large.

Sandy King

jim kitchen
27-Jul-2008, 22:11
Dear Sandy,

Merci...

I acquire this preview file size because the option is available, and although I probably will never use all the captured information, I find that I prefer to have the data instead of not, even if it is from an Epson. I do agree that the larger file sizes are not a necessity, but they can be made from the equipment I have. :)

My selected drum scanned rgb files are obviously smaller, depending on the scanner and the associated software, and I even have a few smaller rgb digital flatbed scanned files floating around from the late great Ted Harris. I started this digital marriage test to see what the limitations within my own equipment might be, which happened to be a more curious adventure, than not.

My finished 8x10 negative image sizes are usually 24X30, and 16X20.

The stitched 8X20 negative images are 12X30 and 16X40, where they are regulated to this size, because my framing costs start to escalate significantly beyond forty inches.

Did I notice change in the final 8X10 stitched image information, compared to a single 8X10 scanned negative? Yes I did. The most significant change was that I did not require one sharpening algorithm to be processed, and I even thought about smoothing the finished image with a touch of Gaussian Blur. The finished image just looks and feels different...

Unfortunately for us, there are limitations regarding what can be physically seen in a finished digital image, and what can be printed with the digital information, even if there is a tremendous amount of information in the finished file, so much so that I could probably throw a 360ppi file at the printer, and never see the difference, compared to a 720ppi printed file from my original file, but I may see a difference in the image's complete tonality. :)

I made the switch from the straight grey scale scans to rgb scans about two years ago, and I found that I could produce an image that I liked better than the straight grey scale capture, where I follow a simple conversion routine from rgb to grey scale, starting with the lightness channel, saving that selected channel as a grey scale file, and where I continue from that point forward with my own additional darkroom influenced adjustments to my finished image. I just happen to prefer the rgb method, because it places my digital file in a healthy information rich position to start my finished image. I decided to use the rgb method going forward because I noticed a difference in my captured images, for whatever reason, where that difference was expressed in better shadow detail. That minute effect stayed with me, so I made an unscientific judgement to continue with rgb.

Again, I must agree that scanning a large negative, such as 8X10 and, or the larger negative sizes you have, generates tremendous digital information, which translates into wondrous smooth tonalities in the final image. Large negatives produce large digital files. I have not conducted any tests to determine my optimum file size, my optimum spi nor my optimum dpi through a rip.

That would be an interesting avenue to explore. :)

jim k

Bruce Watson
28-Jul-2008, 06:08
I have a few questions. First, how large are you making your prints from the stitched files? I am asking because you are scanning at such a high resolution. When I do this I rarely ever find the need to scan a 7X17 or 12X20 negative at over 1200-1600 spi, and you could make some really huge prints from a 1600 spi scan.

Second, why are you scanning in RGB? I know that there are advantages to RGB in that you can adjust the channel to minimize grain and maximize sharpness, but I have never found much benefit from this with negatives this large.

I'm with Sandy here. Interesting test of your hardware and software. Interesting that 32 bit Photoshop can handle a file that exceeds 4 GB in size. Good thing they wrote their own VM system I suppose ;-)

But... That would seem to be some serious overkill you are going through to make a beautiful large print.

Interestingly, I've been thinking of the 4x10 format for a couple of years. I haven't acted on it because of other priorities. But it seems to me the reason that people shoot 8x20 and other ULF sizes is they want to make large contact prints. If you want to enlarge, as you are, and as I would, 4x10 would be sufficient to make absolutely beautiful large prints.

In your case it perhaps has the potential to save you from some huge headaches.

What I'd suggest then is some testing. Make photographs of the same scene two ways -- as a 4x10 (half of one of your 8x10 sheets), then as an 8x20 (stitched as you describe in this thread). Using whatever workflow makes you comfortable, end up with a 16x40 inch print from each method. Compare the prints.

I would be surprised if the print from stitched 8x20 gives you any more detail or any better tonality than the print from 4x10. But I've been surprised before :) The only way to find out for sure is to do the experiment and see. But if 4x10 does what you want it sure would save you a ton of hassles (one hour to open a scan file -- sheesh!).

jetcode
28-Jul-2008, 07:56
4x10 scanned at 3600 produces a high rez mural 3' x 7.5' or so - I like your images.

Capocheny
28-Jul-2008, 09:20
Hi Jim,

Great images... they bring back memories as I've been to two of the three areas in your pictures.

And, thank you for sharing your "process" with us. :)

Cheers

jim kitchen
28-Jul-2008, 22:41
Dear Bruce,

Thank you for your comments...

As I mentioned earlier, I started the experiment as a test. It was a test to discover the limits of my current tools, and I am surprised that my old Mac and Photoshop CS2 cooperated so well, and although these tools took their time to complete the task, a speedier tool may have just processed the files quicker. I am also surprised that very few people realize that Adobe offers the user the "large document format" as an option in Photoshop CS2 and CS3, but then again not many folks migrate past 4GB.

I do not doubt that another test will be in order, to determine the proper efficiency regarding spi, ppi, and dpi, but that will have to wait, and for the moment I doubt that I will reduce my spi setting since my habits are not a problem, or a headache, nor do I mind the time involved to create an image.

I did review an 8X10 image cropped to 4X10 first, and I dismissed the effort while marrying two 8X10 scanned negatives together shortly after that, because I decided to focus on the latter process. I have a 4X10 image, and it is a good image, but I just find that more information is available in the married 8X10 files. This process creates significant work, but I do not mind, since I find time occasionally to experiment, or time to work on larger files, and I do find that if I explore the processing limits of my graphical tool sets, whether it is developing film, or working within Photoshop, the process can be fun.

Working with a 4X10 negative to explore the limits set out by this image size would probably be fun too.

Anyway, I digress...

I appreciate everyone's comments.

jim k

Incidentally, I decided to crop two sections from the original first image, where the first crop is 100%, and the second crop is 200%. They are as follows:



http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/06090107_cropTest_a.jpg

100% crop, middle center of image...


http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/06090107_cropTest_b.jpg

200% crop, back center of image...

Gary Nylander
28-Jul-2008, 23:45
Nice pictures, Jim......but I'm stilling looking for the Sqirrel with two peanuts in his cheeks........

Matus Kalisky
29-Jul-2008, 07:26
You chose the hard way, Jim. But it not only produces a beautifull work, but also brings you a lot of satisfaction (obviously) what makes the whope proces worthwhile.

Still - I would have a purely technical question towards the stitching. When you take the two photographs - do you just use the front left-right shift (you would need a lot I guess) or you rotate the camera towards the two different views. My experince is that if I do the second I get the images "skewd" so it would not be possible to stich them directly without using some dedicated stitching program. This could work if the overlap is very small but still - at such print size you are doing any imperfection in the stitching would be magnified.

jim kitchen
29-Jul-2008, 09:22
Dear Matus,

Yes, it is a hard way to make an image, but again my curiosity got the better of me...

I use a combination of shifts and tilts to keep the perspective and depth of field within reason, and I also just rotate the 8X10 camera to capture the two images, where the images have a common overlap area that approximates ten to fifteen percent, and where I am attentive to a single item in the overlap area to act as the hinge between the two images as I set the camera in the field. I am never completely successful with this alignment exercise because the one of the images always seems to miss the focal mark in the overlap area, where the captured images are skewed up or down from each other because of leveling issues, focusing issues, and shift issues, which cause the final cropped 8X20 format to be smaller than two combined 8X10 negatives.

I should qualify the term cropped 8X20 format...

I identify the width of the combined images in Photoshop after I align the two digital image layers within the new common canvas I created to accept the two digital layers, and then I force the height of the cropped image to fit the 8X20 format from this identified, and accepted width. The final combined and cropped layers are not physically equal to an 8X20 negative, but the combined cropped file contains the digital dimensions of an 8X20 negative, thanks to Photoshop. The 8X20 cropping process creates discarded information from the original layers, which I cannot avoid, but the discarded information at the top and, or the bottom of a layer is usually minimal within my process.

I tried using Photoshop's CS2 stitching first, but I quickly abandoned that algorithm, compared to manually erasing specific parts of the top layer to match the bottom layer's image through a variety of opacities. The parallax issue is always present within the combined digital images, at least for me this problem persists, but with care, repeated undos in Photoshop, and time, I seem to be able to marry the two images with minimal imperfections.

It does take a long, long time with files this large, but I proved to myself that this process can be done with the tools that I currently have. I also discovered that I still have a small reserve of patience... :)


jim k

argos33
16-Aug-2008, 16:06
Jim,
Thanks for this informative and helpful post. I was considering the exact same process as you, but was deterred by my slower-than average computer and figured it wouldn't be up for the task. You have shown that with patience it is indeed quite possible, and the results are impressive! Nice work!

I too would like to see a crop of the squirrel

Evan

Marko
16-Aug-2008, 20:37
Beautiful work, Jim! But you could seriously benefit from Photoshop CS3 Extended. It's aligning (and stitching) algorithms are a world apart from those in CS2.

jim kitchen
16-Aug-2008, 21:22
Jim,
Thanks for this informative and helpful post. I was considering the exact same process as you, but was deterred by my slower-than average computer and figured it wouldn't be up for the task. You have shown that with patience it is indeed quite possible, and the results are impressive! Nice work!

I too would like to see a crop of the squirrel

Evan

Dear argos33,

Merci...

I thought that I should try to see whether the limits of my system could work, and although the entire process takes a while to complete, the process allowed me to test my own patience. So, now I know. :)

jim k


Incidentally, here is the little fellow, after he ate...

http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/sleepingSquirrel.jpg

And here is his infamous sibling...

http://largeformatgroupimages.jimkitchen.ca/images/Scrat_image.jpg

jim kitchen
16-Aug-2008, 21:55
Beautiful work, Jim! But you could seriously benefit from Photoshop CS3 Extended. It's aligning (and stitching) algorithms are a world apart from those in CS2.

Dear Marko,

Thank you kind sir for your comments...

I do have CS3, but I have not cracked open the package yet, but I will do that shortly, I guess. I understand that Adobe significantly improved the stitching routine, compared to CS2, but for the moment I am a bit too old school to let an algorithm make my life so completely easy that I forget why I started the exercise. :)

The future sure looks like it will change.

As a side note, the next item on my agenda will be to take five or six 8X10 negatives, where I will focus on five or six different progressively distant points in the scene, totally ignoring any camera movements, develop them, scan them, and then I will marry the scanned negatives together, while using a digital Scheimpflug routine...

That process should really tie my old Mac's knickers in a knot.

jim k

D. Bryant
16-Aug-2008, 22:07
Dear Matus,

Yes, it is a hard way to make an image, but again my curiosity got the better of me...

I use a combination of shifts and tilts to keep the perspective and depth of field within reason, and I also just rotate the 8X10 camera to capture the two images, where the images have a common overlap area that approximates ten to fifteen percent, and where I am attentive to a single item in the overlap area to act as the hinge between the two images as I set the camera in the field. I am never completely successful with this alignment exercise because the one of the images always seems to miss the focal mark in the overlap area, where the captured images are skewed up or down from each other because of leveling issues, focusing issues, and shift issues, which cause the final cropped 8X20 format to be smaller than two combined 8X10 negatives.

I should qualify the term cropped 8X20 format...

I identify the width of the combined images in Photoshop after I align the two digital image layers within the new common canvas I created to accept the two digital layers, and then I force the height of the cropped image to fit the 8X20 format from this identified, and accepted width. The final combined and cropped layers are not physically equal to an 8X20 negative, but the combined cropped file contains the digital dimensions of an 8X20 negative, thanks to Photoshop. The 8X20 cropping process creates discarded information from the original layers, which I cannot avoid, but the discarded information at the top and, or the bottom of a layer is usually minimal within my process.

I tried using Photoshop's CS2 stitching first, but I quickly abandoned that algorithm, compared to manually erasing specific parts of the top layer to match the bottom layer's image through a variety of opacities. The parallax issue is always present within the combined digital images, at least for me this problem persists, but with care, repeated undos in Photoshop, and time, I seem to be able to marry the two images with minimal imperfections.

It does take a long, long time with files this large, but I proved to myself that this process can be done with the tools that I currently have. I also discovered that I still have a small reserve of patience... :)


jim k
Jim,

I've essentially done the same thing as you are doing except that

1) I use a 4x5 camera not an 8x10.
2) If I rotate the camera I try to do so with the lens nodal point centered on the axis of rotation.
3) Use left and right shift to make each exposure.
4) Stitch the images in Photoshop CS3.
5) I don't refocus the camera if I can avoid it.

After reading your description it seems you are accomplishing your goal the hard way, a good stitching application can ease your effort a lot. As I mentioned CS3 works very well. Also I would not scan in RGB but scan to grey scale from one of the color channels. I ususally use the green channel when scanning pyro developed negatives.

All images need some amount of capture sharpening as well as some sharpening at the final print size.

Don Bryant

jim kitchen
17-Aug-2008, 19:58
Jim,

I've essentially done the same thing as you are doing except that

1) I use a 4x5 camera not an 8x10.
2) If I rotate the camera I try to do so with the lens nodal point centered on the axis of rotation.
3) Use left and right shift to make each exposure.
4) Stitch the images in Photoshop CS3.
5) I don't refocus the camera if I can avoid it.

After reading your description it seems you are accomplishing your goal the hard way, a good stitching application can ease your effort a lot. As I mentioned CS3 works very well. Also I would not scan in RGB but scan to grey scale from one of the color channels. I ususally use the green channel when scanning pyro developed negatives.

All images need some amount of capture sharpening as well as some sharpening at the final print size.

Don Bryant

Dear Don,

Thank for your comments...

As I mentioned earlier, this was an exploratory avenue to see whether I and my equipment could do this without too much grief, and I discovered that I could, as long as I patiently waited for the process to complete. I never did consider this to be a hard way to process my images, just time-consuming, but obviously a few folks may believe that to be true. :)

My nodal point rotations were never the best, causing offset images, and my second negative seemed to be erratic at best, causing the experiment to crash like a hard drive. I did try the stitching process very early in my procedure, but I decided to ignore that process like a really bad date, then again Photoshop probably ignored me.

That said, I do appreciate timesaving methods, and I will explore the new CS3 functions later. My experience with RGB scanning is just a choice I made after playing with other capture methods, where I came to my own conclusion that the shadow detail happened to be better within my own equipment, and my own subsequent post process method. Everyone has their favorite scanning procedure, and for the moment my procedure happens to be RGB.

As a side note, I did find that my 8X10 married files did not need sharpening, but my initial experiments with several old practice 4X5 negatives did. Matter of fact, I considered adding a touch of Gaussian Blur to the 8X10 married images, to actually soften the final prepared image. My normal sharpening is limited to 80, 0.3, 0 with a regular 8X10 image, prepped for printing.

Anyway, I do appreciate your insight, and your suggestions...

jim k