LOW serial number on RDA?!?!

[Richard K.]

I have a shutter mounted (may have been barrel originally) 24" Red Dot Artar with serial number 045. All it says on the lens is " APOCHROMAT:mad: ARTAR 24 IN. F:11 NO.045 "with no mention of Goerz or Schneider. The lens is superb but why no mention of manufacturer and why the really low serial number? Any insights appreciated! I'll be listing it on the Bay soon as I don't really need it.

[QCC]

A picture would help but it sounds like it might be a Schneider lens mounted by S.K. Grimes. Is it a Copal shutter?

[Richard K.]

OK, here is a picture...click on it to enlarge...

[QCC]

Richard,

I think that it is a Schneider and maybe one that we had S.K.Grimes mount several years ago. Are the aperture scales engraved directly on the body of the shutter? If the lens is what I think it is, it should bring a premium. Also wonder is the rear of the lens now larger than a standard number 3 shutter?

[Richard K.]

Richard,

I think that it is a Schneider and maybe one that *we had S.K.Grimes mount several years ago. Are the aperture scales engraved directly on the body of the shutter? If the lens is what I think it is, it should bring a premium. Also wonder is the rear of the lens now larger than a standard number 3 shutter?

Thanks for reply, QCC. BTW, who is *we? Yes the aperture scale is engraved on the shutter body and the rear lens group is slightly larger than a standard Copal #3 opening (is that what you meant?)...so...what does this all mean? :)

[David Lindquist]

I'm copying here what I posted on APUG to Richard's similar inquiry there, mainly to report another RDA with a three digit serial number and to see if anyone can comment on some of my speculations. Richard subsequently posted on APUG that his lens is mounted in a No. 3 Copal.

Originally Posted by Richard K.
"I have a shutter mounted (may have been barrel originally) 24" Red Dot Artar with serial number 045. All it says on the lens is " APOCHROMAT ARTAR 24 IN. F:11 NO.045 "with no mention of Goerz or Schneider. The lens is superb but why no mention of manufacturer and why the really low serial number? Any insights appreciated! I'll be listing it on the Bay soon as I don't really need it."

(I then responded):

I hesitate to speak with great certainty here, and some of this is going to be speculation, but anyway I have in my collection of Goerz ephemera, ebay listings section (it's not really that well organized), a 2001 listing of a 19 inch Red Dot Artar with a serial number of 106. It's mounted in what I call a "late style" Ilex No. 4 Acme Synchro Shutter. These shutters differ from the earlier Ilex shutters in that the shutter speed dial serrations are about 1/16" wide and square bottomed with the intervening portions being about 1/8 inch wide instead of those really fine tooth things on the earlier Ilexes that sort of make the shutter speed dial look like a really fine toothed gear. Additionally in the "new style" Ilex, the Ilex logo is the word "Ilex" in a diamond, in the older shutters the diamond is further circumscribed by a rectangle. Further the type faces used for the letters on the two styles differ one from the other. No way to be certain, but it does look like this lens was originally mounted in this shutter, that is the aperture scale is neatly engraved on the shutters front cover, and doesn't look like any after market machined fittings were used to mate the lens to the shutter.

The seller of this lens described it as a "Schneider Red Dot" However the front of the lens is engraved "APOCHROMAT (intervening red dot) ARTAR 19 IN F:11 NO.106" As with yours, there is no maker's name. Maybe this 19 in Artar was marked Schneider on the back (seller only showed one view of the front), or he assumed it was Schneider from its apparent relative newness or maybe he had some additional information he was basing this on.

Is your 24 inch RDA in a No. 5 Ilex shutter (the standard shutter for this focal length RDA) Does it fit my description of a "late style" Ilex?

I can only guess as to why the low (3 digit) serial numbers and the lack of a maker's name, but at least I've offered an additional example. One guess here is possibly these lenses were made during the transition between Goerz being owned by Kollmorgen and the acquisition of the Goerz line by Schneider Corporation of America (or shortly after SCA acquired the line) and a maker's name and serial number series hadn't been finalized yet. I would like to know for sure if production of Gold Dot Dagors, Red Dot Artars etc. continued in the U.S. for a while after the acquisition by SCA, and if so, for how long?

Hope this helps and I haven't rambled on too long. I've always been something of a Goerz freak.
David

[CP Goerz]

Here are a few pics showing where the Schneider name is, the lens you have is a remount.

[David Lindquist]

Here are a few pics showing where the Schneider name is, the lens you have is a remount.

"Made in U.S.A." This does answer my question re: did making of these lenses continue in the U.S. after Schneider Corporation of America acquired the line. Now my question is when did this cease the and making of the Goerz line shift to Kern in Switzerland (or whoever). And in the example of the 19 inch RDA I cited, it may very well be marked in the same place and the marking doesn't show in the photo.
David

[CP Goerz]

Yes, production did continue but not for long going by the serial numbers I've seen over the years. When it stopped exactly I don't know, I've never met anyone from the factory to ask and they seem to be a rather shy group of folk as they never seem to surface anywhere.



Unless you have the original barrel the 'made in USA Schneider Corp' etc will be lost, no biggie though as anyone who knows about the Goerz/Schneider line will know its a red dot made by Schneider. Only the cells themselves were mounted in the adaptor, cutting the barrel down to keep the name of the manufacturer would add immensely to the cost and problems of exact spacing.