Using Jobo 2509 As an *Inversion* Tank

[Marshall Arbitman]

Apologies if this is a repost. My browser's barfing; my biscuits is burnin'; and Elvis is dead.

I'd like to use a Jobo 2509 as an inversion tank, for processing 4x5 sheets in P MK. Does anybody have any experience with this?

I'd like an easy-loading substitute for tray processing but don't have the patie nce for manually rolling a 2509 or Expert Drum, and don't yet have the space or budget for a CPE or CPP machine.

Apart from guzzling a lot of solution, I can't see why filling up a 2509 and inv erting it would produce streaky or unpredictable results, unless there's somethi ng about sheet film that's drastically different from large roll film. Anybody? TIA

[David F. Stein]

Find a Nikor stainless steel 4x5 tank,

[Marshall Arbitman]

>>Find a Nikor stainless steel 4x5 tank<<

David:

Care to tell me why? And have you any experience with the Jobo?

Marshall

[Ken Burns]

Aside from the fact that these tanks use a lot of chemistry, if agitated properly, they will work beautifully with inversion agitation. I have found that when agitating, you need to twist and invert to get good overall agitation. When the tank is inverted totally upside down, give a twist of about a half turn. Then when the tank is returned to the upright position, give it a half-turn twist in the opposite direction. I've done it this way for years with the older version of these tanks that use less chemistry.

Some say you should only load the inner and outer slots, leaving the middle slot empty. This might be true if you use the Jobo agitater, but I have always loaded all the slots with no problems, and have had absolutely no problems with inversion agitation.

[Marshall Arbitman]

>>Aside from the fact that these tanks use a lot of chemistry, if agitated properly, they will work beautifully with inversion agitation<<

Ken, thanks.

Years ago I used a long Jobo tank and reels for inversion work with 120 film and got fine results. My big concern was that the greater surface area of 4x5, coupled with the tight space it's jammed into might yield edge-vs-center uniformity problems. I'm glad that's not the case. I struggled for awhile with open tanks and hangers; I can tell you, there's nothing worse.

Gordon Hutchings attributes most uniformity problems to laminar coupling of chemistry to film, and the inability of some forms of agitation to break that bond. I suppose if you could vigorously tip those same tanks and hangers upside down, even they might do a good job. Martinis, on the other hand, always taste better gently stiired!

Getting back to Hutchings, have you any experience using the 2509 inversion method with PMK?

Thanks Again,

Marshall

[Charlie Stracl]

I use this approach and am happy, except for the extreme weight when you've got the solution loaded.

I use a dual reel tank, and keep the upper one empty. That gives the solution enough space to move when inverted and intermix without film in the way to inhibit mixing.

It is, today, a pricey way to go. I might consider Combiplan & dunking if I were buying new today.

[Marshall Arbitman]

Hey Charlie:

The 2509+2 reels+loading gizomo goes for $154 at B&H. Of course, chemistry's liable to jack the tab up over time.

>>I might consider Combiplan & dunking if I were buying new today<<

What's a Combiplan?

[John H. Henderson]

The Gepe (or HP) Combiplan is a leaky, rectangular inversion tank that takes forever to pour chemicals in and out of so you really don't know what your developing time is.

Before using a Combiplan, I'd get some 4x5 rubber Kodak tanks from eBay and some 4x5 hangers and develop in the dark. The Combiplan was probably about the worst developing method I tried.

My opinion.

[Charlie Stracl]

Combiplan is leaky...

Takes forever to fill...

That's why I said I'd try using it as a dunk tank. Same as the hard rubber tanks, but not individual sheet holders.

I've got arthritis in my DIPs (distal-interphelangeal joints), and some of the finicky stuff with the SS holders it not in my repetoire. The Jobo is a piece of cake, once I figure out a system.

In the light, set it at the innermost slot. In the dark load a sheet. Spin to the 3rd slot on the 2nd arena.

Spin to the 2nd slot on the 1st arena. Load. Spin to the 2nd slot on 2nd arena. Load. Spin to the 1st slot on the 1st arena. Load. Spin to the 1st slot on the 2nd arena. Load.

Slap it on the rods. Slap on the 2nd reel. Put it in the tank. Put on the lid. Turn on the light.

This sequence, by the way, lets you feel where the sheet your working on is going, in case it misses the tracks. If you load out to in, however, you're working without being able to feel what's going on.

C.

[devtank]

The Nikon Tanks are quaint darkroom decorations that scratch film unless maintained with a wire brush on a constant vigil. The Jobo is the way to go, because of their economic use of solution, and ease of cleaning. Loading is a LOT easier than the instructions would have you believe.

[venchka]

You will want the wide mouth lid with the red top. Or find a stopper that fits the cog lid.

For $20 or less, you can buy a Uniroller or Beseler motor base.

For somewhere between $8 and $65 (actual prices observed by me) you can buy a 2551/2553 tank and lid. These tanks hold 2 2509 sheet film reels, 3 120/220 reels or 5 35mm reels. They ride perfectly on the motor bases above. Next best thing to a 3010 Expert tank for sheet film. Best thing for smaller formats. Great for doing all 3 formats at the same time.

YMMV.

[tgtaylor]

Apologies if this is a repost. My browser's barfing; my biscuits is burnin'; and Elvis is dead.

I'd like to use a Jobo 2509 as an inversion tank, for processing 4x5 sheets in P MK. Does anybody have any experience with this?

I'd like an easy-loading substitute for tray processing but don't have the patie nce for manually rolling a 2509 or Expert Drum, and don't yet have the space or budget for a CPE or CPP machine.

Apart from guzzling a lot of solution, I can't see why filling up a 2509 and inv erting it would produce streaky or unpredictable results, unless there's somethi ng about sheet film that's drastically different from large roll film. Anybody? TIA

Marshall,

The 2509 (and 2509N) is a reel. It holds 6 sheets. I have developed B&W sheet film for years with good results by hand inversion using the 2509N reels and 2521 tank although I use either D-76 or Xtol as a developer. As long as you are able to fill the tank with sufficient chemistry to develope the film, you shouldn't have any problems.

BTW, the reason the 2521 takes 1500ml of chemisty for the inversion method is because with less chemistry part of the sheet(s) would be out of the developer during breaks in the agitation.

[venchka]

YIKES! I missed the 2509 thing totally.

I still say that a 2551/2553 (same tank, different Jobo designation) tank and 1 or 2 2509 or 2509n reels are the best budget friendly solution. I use 100ml of Xtol 1:3 per sheet.

[tgtaylor]

Geez! I should have read the OP more closely as it was posted more than 8 years ago!!!

[Ed Brock]

Let me suggest an alternative that I've been using to process 4x5 & 5x7 for several years - so far with no failures. The Paterson roll film tank#117 (available at Freestyle for about $40.)which is designed to process 120 rollfilm and simple-to-make soft tubes will process 10 sheets of 4x5 in daylight.

Here are some advantages: No contrast build-up as in continuous rotary processors. Can withstand the most aggressive inversion agitation with the film emulsion never touching anything, and in addition the tank lid does not leak. Daylignt processing & accurate temperature monitoring of the temperature INSIDE the tank via any probe thermometer. Solution fill and dump in seconds. Perfect for dilute Stand Development. Even and uniform development and never a corner scratch as in the rubber-banded taco method.

Disadvantages: If you are into the Zone System stuff you will not be able to process individual sheets with differing times. Uses a little more solution than some other methods but when I can process 45 sheets of 4x5 in a 1 gal packet of D76 @ 1:1, I’m not going to complain, even in an economic downturn.

Here's how it works. For 4x5, make soft tubes from any mesh fabric by cutting 4x6" rectangles. I use plastic window screening from Home Depot. Fold into 4x3" and sew, staple or glue 1/4" from the edge. Roll the exposed sheet film and insert into the mesh tube. It will pop open and “inflate” the soft tube with the edges held firmly about 1/4" apart. Stand the tubes vertically around the fill tube of the Paterson roll film tank. You will find that 5 soft tubes will fit perfectly in a circle with the rounded edges going in the same direction (27 oz. solution required). Or, painting a word picture, looking straight down into the tank, it looks like 5 sperm swimming in a circle. Add another 5 in a second layer – sperm headed in the other direction (now 54 oz. of solution required, (the max. capacity of this tank). If you are only processing 1 layer you will need to add an empty 120 reel on top to hold the film under the solution. Yes, as an added bonus you can process sheet film and 120 at the same time – I do it often having a 6x17 back.

You could also get the largest Paterson tank #118 (about $55. at Freestyle). It is perfectly sized to process up to 2 layers of 5x7 or 8 to 10 sheets at one time. That same tank will do 15 sheets of 4x5 with room to spare, though it’s a little hard to get your hand down to the bottom to load the first of 3 layers of film. The only word of caution: After loading the tank, make sure the center fill-tube mates with the funnel-lid - otherwise it will not be light-proof. You can verify this in total darkness by sticking your little finger into the fill hole. This is all pretty simple, low-tech and inexpensive but has given me perfect results from the very first time I’ve tried it. I am surprised others have not stumbled on to this method.

[Roman]

I'm using this with rodinal 1+100 (1,2l of water + 12ml of rodinal).
Inverting twice a minute. A sample image here:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/3567189168_99b597e0ee.jpg

I like it as it's not leaking during inversions. Had hama tank previously that wasn't
that tight.

[IanG]

I've used a Jobo 2000 series tank for Inversion processing 5x4 sheet film since 1976, they are excellent, leak free and easy to use.

In contrast I also use a Yankee tank for 9x12 negatives, and have used Combi tanks, they are leaky awkward and more prone to uneven development. It only has one advantage over the Jobo tanks in that the film holder is adjustable, all other features are distinct disadvantages.

Ian

[Matus Kalisky]

I started to use the Jobo 2551 (or is it the 2521? - the smallest 4x5 tank and accepts one 2509N reel) recently. It leaks a bit * as well as my smaller JOBO tank does), but I gotit used. Newertheless - the development was eaven, only loading the real was a lot of pain - I did not get how to use the loading black pastick pieces :o . As I do not have any roller/motor base, I was rolling it on a kitchen working table. But the message is - I got even developed negatives on first try :) . I just have to learn how to load/unload it.