PDA

View Full Version : Questions about 4X5 processing...



Stephen S. Mack
10-Jul-2008, 16:57
Do I need a lot of darkroom equipment to get started in 4X5 processing (B&W)? I have a changing bag, some trays, some chemicals, and a very dark cellar. Years ago I used a very dark cellar and some plastic food bins as developing tanks, and was astounded that I got recognizable images. I was also astounded at the amount of time I spent down in the very dark cellar, and thought I might be taking up too much time for my hobby, so I suppose for that reason I stopped.

But that's another story.

Anyway, once I've gotten the recognizable image, do I need very elaborate equipment to make contact prints? What is the most primitive (read IN-expensive) kit I would need? What questions haven't I asked that I need to? (I know that this is a semi-ridiculous question, but everyone has had the experience of starting off on a new endeavor, been told that one should ask questions, but since one is a tyro, one doesn't know which questions to ask until later.) Sort of a Higdon's Corollary: Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

Thanks to all who reply.

With best regards,

Steve Mack

The man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he could learn in no other way.

Mark Twain

Erik Larsen
10-Jul-2008, 17:09
Your 90% there or more. You can use a lightbulb suspended above your negative/paper sandwhich to print with or you can find a cheap used enlarger and use it as a light source. They are everywhere these days for usually the cost of picking them up. The only other thing you would need is a contact printing frame or just use a thick piece of glass instead. give it a shot and you will be hooked and the next questions you will be asking is where can I get 8x10 film:)
Have fun with it.
Erik

Lenny Eiger
10-Jul-2008, 17:17
Do I need a lot of darkroom equipment to get started in 4X5 processing (B&W)?


No. Simple trays and some developer and fixer. You can even mix your own. D-23 is a great developer and only has two ingredients Metol and Sodium Sulfite, both avail in bulk from Photographer's Formulary. (you will need a scale to weigh it out...)

While you're there, why not order some Ferric Ammonium Citrate and Potassium Ferricyanide. The you can make your own cyanotypes - these can be very beautiful. They can also be colors other than blue with additional processing with tannic acid and sodium carbonate.

You could pick of a copy of Crawford's "The Keepers of the Light" - and I am sure a few other publications. I think these are some of the simplest and least expensive prints you could make.

Lenny

MIke Sherck
10-Jul-2008, 17:33
Basic B&W processing and contact printing is very simple; you sound as though you're all set for processing the film, and for contact printing, as Erik said, all you need to add is a lightbulb which you can raise or lower, and a piece of clean glass, at least a bit larger than your negative, and a smooth, flat surface to sit it on. My glass for contact printing is 9" x 11" (so it fits over 8"x10" paper with some left over so I don't have to be precise,) about 1/4" thick. I got it from a local glass shop and had them round the edges for me. I paid, as I recall, about $5 for it some years ago. It's just a leftover piece of tempered window glass they had laying around. They were happy to have something to do on a warm spring afternoon and, I believe, used the $5 to buy some donuts. :) The same trays you use for developing film are perfectly fine for paper.

You want a way to raise or lower the light bulb so you can adjust exposure, and a timer of some sort (I used a cheap plastic stopwatch for several years when my darkroom was over a garage; if your watch has a stopwatch function, that will do fine.) If you can scare up a safelight it would be helpful for printing (and seeing the stopwatch!); Kodak used to make a bare bulb which was coated with an amber substance. I've seen at least one darkroom where the user dipped a regular 5 watt child's night-light bulb in a red liquid substance used to coat steel and it worked all right for her. Keep it at least four feet from the unprocessed paper and you should be fine.

As for chemistry, if you have a local source I'd advise using whatever they have on hand and stick with it for a while in order to learn how it works and become familiar with it. Same with paper. If you have to mail order materials, whatever is most affordable for you will do to start. Many differences in chemicals and materials are rather subtle and it may be a while before your eye has learned to tell the difference.

Most important, experiment, learn, and have fun! There's really not generally accepted "right" ways of doing a lot of this: give the same scene to a dozen photographers and you're going to get at least a dozen recognizably different photographs. Good luck!

Mike

PBimages
12-Jul-2008, 08:22
So how do you safely develop 4 x 5 Negatives, only I have a Yankee Developing Tank and when I meased the amount of chemicals required it appears that your talking just over a litre of chemicals, also I have heard that it does not process the negatives properly is this correct?

A friend of mine Pete Watkins has altered a Pattison Orbital Tank to develope his 4 x 5 as it allows him to use 300ml of developer, but I was woundering if there was a better method!

At college we have the deep processing tanks with floating lids and they mix a large batch of ID11 every couple of weeks or so!

So what methods do other people use!

Pat Kearns
12-Jul-2008, 13:56
Read the article on the LF Homepage about using a Unicolor drum and motorized base. You can develop 4 negatives using one and the only time you need to be in the dark is when you load the film into the drum. All the developing is done in room light. Unicolor or Beseler drums and motors can be found on the auction sites for little money. As mentioned above just a light bulb is needed for contact prints. Check your local library for books on b & w film developing. You can't get anything less expensive than the free information at the library. You can use the money you save there on film, paper, & chemicals.

PBimages
14-Jul-2008, 03:37
The issue I found was that using the Yankee Tank I needed 1.5 Litres of Chemical, this to me seems a lot, especially if I want to develope just two negatives instead of 10 negatives!

I do not have a problem developing the films or printing my images afterwards, but as I am only used to using 300ml of chemical, a bottle of Dev solution gives me a couple months worth, instead of a single go!

So how do other people manage?

reellis67
14-Jul-2008, 05:23
I use trays for small numbers of negatives (8 or less) and tanks and hangers for more than that.

- Randy

reellis67
14-Jul-2008, 05:30
I use one of our bathrooms as a darkroom. I have a length of blackout fabric that is supposed to be used to line curtains that I pull across the door and simply make sure the lights in the adjoining room are turned out. It takes me about 15 minutes to develop a batch of film (up to 8 sheets) - not long at all really. All I started with for developing sheet film was a set of trays, the chemicals, a length of string, and some clothes pins. (I use the string and clothes pins to hang the negatives to dry in the shower). You can of course get far more complicated, but that serves me well to this day, although I do now also have a set of tanks and a number of hangers, which helps when I am developing a large number of sheets.

The others have addresses printing quite well. My own setup consists of basically an enlarger that sits on the counter top in the bathroom/darkroom, a couple of timers, and a safe light if that's of any interest or help. It's very simple and basic, but provides me everything that I need.

- Randy

Colin Corneau
16-Jul-2008, 16:57
Please run, don't walk, away from the Yankee tank.

Some may disagree with me here, but every single neg I put through that thing was improperly developed, and unprintable by hand (I had to scan one in and retouch it digitally in order to get a useable image, which I don't like doing).

Just my story, but one I've heard a lot.

raucousimages
16-Jul-2008, 18:52
Nothing wrong with a yankee tank if you know how to use it. Many people just let them soak without enough/proper movement and the negs come out uneven and thin. A tray is the simplest and uses a small amount of chemical so it makes a good place to start.

PBimages
17-Jul-2008, 02:59
As I said earlier Colin, I don't use the Yankee tank as the manufacturers recommend I use it as a deep tank processor and basically keep dunking the negatives in and out of the various solutions leave the stand for a while then dunk again.

So far every negative has come out perfect, the only problem found so far, is that using a LF camera is highlighting my flaws as a photographer, so I need to work on that before I do anything else!

I do wounder if trays are the best way forward, I am just dubious about something scratching the negatives, but I suppose I would be using less chemicals providing that I can develope around 6 negatives in one go!

Ornello
9-Feb-2022, 11:22
Hangers. I strongly advise against using trays. All too easy to scratch film and get uneven development.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192845482020

https://www.etsy.com/listing/159652057/vintage-4x5-kodak-film-developing-hanger?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_a-craft_supplies_and_tools-imaging_and_lighting-cameras_and_imaging-other&utm_custom1=_k_EAIaIQobChMIkb6_uJ7z9QIVFOWzCh1l2QJKEAQYAyABEgLTgfD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_12573075997_120353228060_507798832974_aud-301856855998:pla-295939757726_c__159652057_107481577&utm_custom2=12573075997&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkb6_uJ7z9QIVFOWzCh1l2QJKEAQYAyABEgLTgfD_BwE

Bill Poole
9-Feb-2022, 16:06
You will get many answers on developing film. I use Mod54 inserts in Patterson daylight tanks, loaded in my blacked-out bathroom, then developed at my kitchen sink using one-shot HC 110 and timed with a iPhone Massive Development ap. Yields six negatives per tank Also, since these are the same tanks I use to develop 120, it saves on equipment storage. It takes a little practice to load the insert, but not a lot. I previously developed in trays, but this is much easier, and the results are superior, without the scratches and uneven development that once plagued me. (And, after I have loaded the tanks, which does not take long, our only bathroom is is available for others to use while I am developing, which is much appreciated and has probablty prolonged my marriage.) I don's shoot a lot, develop about twice a month, and this system works for me at that scale. Have fun!

Jim Noel
9-Feb-2022, 17:16
You have all the equipment you need - trays. For the contact prints all you need is a piece of glass, or a contact frame plus a dim light. If you don't have a dim light source, you can wrap layers of toilet tissue around the bulb , and move it further away top dim what you have.
Have fun and good luck!!

Jim Noel
9-Feb-2022, 17:18
Do I need a lot of darkroom equipment to get started in 4X5 processing (B&W)? I have a changing bag, some trays, some chemicals, and a very dark cellar. Years ago I used a very dark cellar and some plastic food bins as developing tanks, and was astounded that I got recognizable images. I was also astounded at the amount of time I spent down in the very dark cellar, and thought I might be taking up too much time for my hobby, so I suppose for that reason I stopped.

But that's another story.

Anyway, once I've gotten the recognizable image, do I need very elaborate equipment to make contact prints? What is the most primitive (read IN-expensive) kit I would need? What questions haven't I asked that I need to? (I know that this is a semi-ridiculous question, but everyone has had the experience of starting off on a new endeavor, been told that one should ask questions, but since one is a tyro, one doesn't know which questions to ask until later.) Sort of a Higdon's Corollary: Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

Thanks to all who reply.

With best regards,

Steve Mack

The man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he could learn in no other way.

Mark Twain

All you need is 3 trays, a dim ,light source, a piece of glass and y9u are ready to go.

John Kasaian
9-Feb-2022, 17:58
My budget friendly suggestions in color
For mixing chemicals you'll want a graduate cylinder of some type, a stirring wand free paint stirring stick from the hardware store, a funnel dollar store and some jugs to store your chemicals in ask a pharmacy to save you the brown bottles Robetussin syrup comes in.
And a thermometer.
You'll also want a timer of some sort, preferably one you can hook up to a light when it's time for printing

For developing film and prints, 8x10 trays work and will give you plenty of room.
Hang a length of clothesline and clothes pins to hang your negatives and prints to dry.

For contact prints a piece of glass, preferably heavy glass is good. A safe light a short string of led Christmas lights bought on holiday close-out have worked for me and a low wattage light bulb as other have mentioned or get an old enlarger---any format enlarger with a baseboard---people give 'em away on Craig's List, something to wash your prints in and something to flatten them out with a pile of heavy books will work, a cast iron skillet, or a piece of scrap granite countertop, or repurpose a pizza stone if you already have one.

nitroplait
10-Feb-2022, 01:56
I haven't quite understood how tray developing panchromatic film is more than just a theoretical possibility.
I see endless challenges with handling and timing when working in complete darkness.

Since tray development is often mentioned as a simple beginners option, I probably overlook some smart way of doing it.

If someone is happy tray-developing their film (and has the patience to explain) I'd love to hear the details of how film sheets are moved from film holders to trays and between trays in the dark - and how you avoid tongs and friction from ruining the emulsion - how you time, and reset timer, in the dark etc.

Bill Poole
10-Feb-2022, 14:31
Lay out your three trays with chemicals: developer, water for stop, fixer. Check the temps. Set up a darkroom timer with luminous dial; dial in the time for your developer.
Put on nitrile gloves.
Turn out the lights.
Open the film holder and remove the film. (Start with one at a time until you are comfortable doing more.)
Working by feel, put the film in the developer emulsion side up. (Notch top right.) Use your gloved hand top be sure the film is covered by the developer
Rock the tray to move the developer over the film. This is called agitation. Go easy- maybe 20-30 secs gentle at first. Then three to five gentle times every minute.
When the timer goes off, move the film to the stop bath. Rock the tray to agitate. Count. After 30 secs, ok to stop agitating. Leave the film in stop for another 30 secs.
Move the film to the fixer. Once it's in the fixer, it's ok to turn on the lights. Set time for fixing time per instructions on fixer.
Once fixed, put in the clean tray to wash with frequent changes on water.

This is how I would do it if I still developed by tray. Handle the films carefully and don't over agitate, as this can cause uneven development in my experience. NO TONGS -- these are used for paper.

You asked. Others may wish to edit my suggestions.

Todd Korol has a great vid on you tube. Where he and I disagree, listen to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shenhcgcbJk

bmikiten
10-Feb-2022, 15:58
BTZS Film tubes make sense here. Easy and you don't have to worry about light issues after they are loaded.

Brian

Doremus Scudder
10-Feb-2022, 16:35
Hangers. I strongly advise against using trays. All too easy to scratch film and get uneven development.

...



I haven't quite understood how tray developing panchromatic film is more than just a theoretical possibility.
I see endless challenges with handling and timing when working in complete darkness.

Since tray development is often mentioned as a simple beginners option, I probably overlook some smart way of doing it.

If someone is happy tray-developing their film (and has the patience to explain) I'd love to hear the details of how film sheets are moved from film holders to trays and between trays in the dark - and how you avoid tongs and friction from ruining the emulsion - how you time, and reset timer, in the dark etc.

Geez... Tray developing sheet film is a time-honored and effective method. I've been doing it for 30+ years. I find it more even, more flexible and more economical.

Yes, there's a bit of a learning curve; the simplest tools require the most skill. However, after a bit of time spent mastering shuffling the stack of negatives along with paying attention and being a bit careful, scratching negatives is not an issue.

@nitroplait,

Since you asked, here's my technique in a nutshell. I use PMK as a developer and therefore do all of this with nitrile gloves on; no problems there either.

1. Mix chemicals and get them in the trays. A water pre-soak tray is necessary with multiple sheets to keep them from sticking together in the developer. I use a tray one size larger than the film and agitate by shuffling along the short axis of the film. Note that everything is done with hands; no tongs, etc. needed.

2. Turn out the lights. From this point on till the film has been in the fixer for at least half the fixing time, everything is done in total darkness. Unload filmholders (that have been laid out previously) and gather the film together in a stack. I like six sheets per batch.

3. I fan the sheets like a hand of cards and immerse them one-by-one in the water pre-soak, emulsion-side-up. I wait 10 seconds or so before adding another sheet to let the emulsion soak up enough water so it won't stick to the next sheet. After all the sheets are in, I agitate by shuffling the stack; pulling a sheet from the bottom and replacing it on the top. I like 3-4 minutes in the pre-soak tray.

3. At the end of the pre-soak, I lift the stack from the tray. I always turn the first sheet to go into the developer so the code notch is at the opposite end from the rest of the stack so I can keep track. I fan the stack and immerse the first sheet in the developer while simultaneously starting the time with the footswitch. I like to go through the stack once every 30 seconds, so with a six-sheet batch, that means my agitation interval will be five seconds. For that reason, I immerse the next five sheets one every five seconds. Once all the sheets are in, I continue shuffling, pulling a sheet from the bottom, turning it 180° (to ensure even development) and replacing it on the top of the stack. Skill is need to keep the bottom sheet from getting scratched as well as when pushing the sheet down into the developer (too fast and surge will overdevelop the edges). Once you get your technique down, however, it's second nature.

4. 15 or 20 seconds before the end of development, I lift the stack from the developer. I've made sure I end up with sheet one on the bottom so I can immerse them in the stop bath in the same order I did in the developer. I fan the stack and, when time's up, I immerse sheet one in the stop, followed by subsequent sheets every five seconds. I agitate by shuffling through the stack a couple times, pick up the stack and then...

5. ...immerse the whole stack at once in the fix (no time-sensitive one-at-a-time needed here). I shuffle once through the stack and then start the timer for fixing. I shuffle in the dark for at least half the fixing time; often for the whole time. I then switch on the lights and finish the rest of the processing with the lights on. Film goes into a water holding tray and then into an archival washer. I empty a tray, fill it with distilled water and the right amount of Photo Flo for the final rinse before hanging them up to dry.

Anyone with a bit of dexterity and a dark place can develop film with just a few trays (I like five: pre-soak, dev., stop, fix, water holding tray). Many renowned photographers tray develop(ed) including Adams and Weston.

Best,

Doremus

nitroplait
10-Feb-2022, 22:31
You asked. Others may wish to edit my suggestions.




Since you asked, here's my technique in a nutshell.
Thanks Bill and Doremus! That is a great help for my understanding of the workflow.

Kevin Crisp
12-Feb-2022, 09:02
I am a lifelong tray developer of sheet film. I think it is easy and I don't scratch film.

We ordered pizzas one evening and they came with those white plastic tripod things that are intended to keep the top from hitting the cheese. I glued one or two of those (depends on the size the tray) upside down in the middle of the tray. An 8x10 tray handles two 4x5 negatives nicely, an 11x14 tray two 5x7s. Those spacers keep the sheets from scratching each other and they can slide all over the place in a very random pattern. I put the film in emulsion up, push it under with my fingers, and lift them out by the edges when developed. I lifted my agitation technique from the one suggested by a Kodak publication for Tmax 100; it is basically very slow gentle tray rocking -- one side, then the front of the tray, then the other side, with the cycle taking about 15 seconds.

It is simple and for me it works. But it is two sheets at a time. You can develop a lot of film in an evening this way. In the dark (of course) you have a stop bath tray and a fixer tray. I have no difficulty lifting the negatives out of the developing tray and gently pushing them under in the next two trays. If you run a line of flexible glue down the middle of the trays (Household Goop) that creates a gentle ridge and the sheets will never get hydro-stuck to the bottom of the tray.