jobo 3005 uneven development

[Jordan]

Alright so a few months back after a while of using a beseler motor base to spin my jobo 3005, I acquired a cpp2 processor with a CPE arm. Everything seemed to working really well, except for in some negs with smooth skies I get dark blotches in my prints....... this would mean uneven development to me. I make sure the unit is level, so it I assume it is not due to that. I have been using JOBO's recommended chemistry amounts though so as not to stress the motor in the processor..... their amounts seem really low. Anyhow, if anyone has any suggestions please let me know. Could it be the CPE2 arm maybe? Some people say it is the exact same arm as the others. Or is it too little chemistry? thanks in advance.

Jordan

[Clueless Winddancing]

Well my dear fellow we need more information, we're not psychic or Sherlock. You had no such probem before using the Jobo processor?
Does the processor stay in place or get set up for a run?
Your complete work flow would be a good starter.
Does the water supply the same year around?
Level processor?
Dry drum/tank?
Any innovative "short-cuts"?
Film orientation standarized?
Completelness of fixing?
Age/condition of film?
It would be well to eliminate all the obvious as a first step.

[Robert A. Zeichner]

I've been advised by two very experienced Jobo users to do at least a 6 minute pre-soak before development. I just do this as a matter of routine and have had no uneveness in anything I've processed. This is with T-max emulsions, so I don't know what would be advised for other films.

[Scott Kathe]

Could be due to developer depletion. You really need to find out the capacity of the developer you are using. Are you doing a presoak or not? How much developer, how many sheets and how long? It's curious that it seemed to work on the Beseler base but not now. I'm no expert but you really need to provide a bit more information so more experienced members could help you out.

[Jordan]

Thanks guys for such prompt responses. Sorry for not providing enough information. Here goes:
Processor is leveled
Tri-x
at least a five minute presoak
hc110 directly from the bottle: 1 ounce of syrup to 74 ounces of water
1100 ml of developer in the drum for 9 minutes
1 1/2 minute stop
5 minute fix
water wash
5 minute permawash
35 minute wash in gravity works film washer

[Clueless Winddancing]

Geeze, where's my violin when I need it? A match, too if you don't mind Watson.

[Oren Grad]

At what rotation setting are you running the drum? Is it spinning and reversing smoothly?

Is the film base clearing fully?

Is the film oriented with the emulsion side facing toward the center of each well rather than the wall?

[Ron Marshall]

Jobo recommends a maximum volume of 630ml for the 3005:

http://www.jobo.com/web/Expert-Drums.338.0.html

[Oren Grad]

...and a maximum of 1000 ml for the CPA-2/CPP-2:

>> The CPA-2 and CPP-2 processors should not be used with more than 1000 ml of solution. Excess volumes will limit the useful life of the rotation motor. <<

http://www.jobousadarkroom.com/instructions/instructions_misc_tank_and_drum_capacities.htm

[Jordan]

I run the processor at speed 4 in one direction to attain the same results as I was getting with my beseler motor base, as they were perfect. It runs plenty smooth. One thing I did change is I have my film away from the center now. I started to do this because the anti-halation layer wasn't fully clearing with the opening of the film facing center. Perhaps this where I am going wrong?

[Clueless Winddancing]

Having eliminated everything else, what remains is the butler of course!

[Oren Grad]

One thing I did change is I have my film away from the center now. I started to do this because the anti-halation layer wasn't fully clearing with the opening of the film facing center. Perhaps this where I am going wrong?

Think about it: if the base wasn't clearing fully, it means there was inadequate circulation of solution on that side. So if you've flipped the film, now there's inadequate circulation of solution to the emulsion side instead of the base side.

That's not the whole story, because the kinetics of base clearing may be different from that of emulsion development. But at least now you know what you need to try next.

BTW, if the base isn't clearing sufficiently, it's easy enough to finish the job with a tray soak in Permawash. The only time I've had a problem with the base clearing is when I've tried developing ULF sheets of certain old-style emulsions, like Fortepan 400, in a Jobo print drum. In that situation, a few minutes in a tray of Permawash after pulling the film from the drum did the trick.

[Fred L]

yep, sounds like it. emulsion always faces in. anti halation can be cleared later if need be.

[Jan Pedersen]

Running only one direction caused me the same problems not getting the anti halation to clear. Changing direction manually every 2 minutes solved that problem.

[Oren Grad]

Running only one direction caused me the same problems not getting the anti halation to clear. Changing direction manually every 2 minutes solved that problem.

The Jobo processors automatically reverse direction every few turns.

[Jordan]

Gentlemen, and again especially Oren, thank you for your input. I believe that they way I had my film oriented in the drum most likely has something to do with the occasional uneven development. Thanks again.

Jordan

[Jan Pedersen]

The Jobo processors automatically reverse direction every few turns.

Oren,
Please read Jordan's post #10

[Oren Grad]

Oren,
Please read Jordan's post #10

Thanks, Jan - sorry for my oversight there.

Short of disabling the little mechanical widget that signals the motor to shift direction after a certain number of rotations, is it even possible to run a Jobo unidirectionally?

[Jordan]

Still some uneven look in the skies............. at least with the smooth non-cloud skies. I turned my film back inward, leveled the processor front to back (not sure, but seemed level width wise), and still uneven development. I use 1100 ml of developer (HC 110, 1oz from syrup to 74oz water). Is that too diluted possibly? Thanks again for those don't mind revisiting this topic.

[Oren Grad]

Off the top of my head, other things you might try:

Skip the presoak.

Try a higher concentration of HC-110 that requires less solution.

Try a different developer that requires less solution (I use 20 oz. of straight D-76 to develop 5 sheets of 8x10 in a 3005).

Set the processor back to auto-reverse mode.

[Jordan]

A little more background:
I used to use HC 110 1oz syrup to 70oz when I used the Jobo 3005 on the Beseler Motor base. I also used to use about 400ml of developer per sheet.

I don't really want to fiddle around with a new developer. Is 1 to 75 to dilute?

[Oren Grad]

Is 1 to 75 to dilute?

Well, that's close to Kodak's F dilution, which is 1:79. But if you look here...

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.jhtml

...and scroll down to the "Capacity" table, you'll see that they figure that in tray development at least, HC-110F is good for 2 (two) 8x10 sheets per gallon (and it's not recommended for tank use). So that's half a gallon per sheet.

There's plainly some safety margin in many of Kodak's capacity specifications, because I get fine results with 4 ounces of D-76 per sheet rather than the recommended 8. But at 1100ml of HC-110F for five sheets it sounds like you're off by a factor of about 8 or 9.

Are you getting good density overall? What contrast grade do you need to print these negatives?

[Brian K]

Jordan, is the uneveness in the sky parallel to the direction of rotation? Does it only appear on very even toned areas like sky but is much harder to see in more complex areas? Jobo's tech's called this unevenness "road ruts".

I had issues like what I described above. My solutions were as follows.

1) I always use a 5 minute presoak with distilled water
2) I always use 68 degrees in order to give me a longer dev time
3) I always fill the tank to the maximum capacity rating. (Even if I do one roll I max out the tank
4) as the Jobo only rotates in one axis, I remove the tank from the CPP-2 and periodically agitate in the other axis. If you try this make sure your palm covers the hole so as not to dump out your dev, rotate the tank as you agitate to ensure that all the film get covered, and make sure to put the tank back on the lift properly with the agitation gear connected.
My agitation routine is first manual agitation after a minute, then every 1 1/2 minutes. The agitation itself lasts about 15 seconds. I also set the speed of the motor rotation to really slow. You may need to cut about 5 percent off your dev time to compensate for this extra agitation.

[Jordan]

Oren,
are you saying that I am indeed using too little developer per sheet? MY densities require at most usually 15-20 points of magenta on a DeVere color head. Thanks for your research by the way!

Brian,
The uneveness is like slight blotches toward the bottom of the film in regards to how it oriented in the drum.

[Brian K]

Oren,
are you saying that I am indeed using too little developer per sheet? MY densities require at most usually 15-20 points of magenta on a DeVere color head. Thanks for your research by the way!

Brian,
The uneveness is like slight blotches toward the bottom of the film in regards to how it oriented in the drum.

It might be advisable for you to post a scan of the unevenness.

[Oren Grad]

Oren,
are you saying that I am indeed using too little developer per sheet? MY densities require at most usually 15-20 points of magenta on a DeVere color head.

Yes, that's what I was wondering, although if you need only 15-20M to print, it's hard to imagine you're falling anywhere near as far short as I was speculating.

Have you tried setting the processor back to auto-reverse?

Meanwhile, back to the head-scratching...

[Jordan]

Here is an example of the uneven development issue. Look in the upper right hand corner. Thanks.

[Fred L]

I'm having a hard time seeing it as the jpeg artifacting in the sky is severe on my laptop...took it into cs2 and inverted it but that didn't help. could you link to a larger file ?

[Oren Grad]

Agree with Fred. I can see stuff going on in the upper right, but when I play with the file I quickly run into JPG artifacts that overwhelm any detail that might help explain what's happening.

[Allen in Montreal]

Good morning,

After browsing for some time, I signed up to the forum. What a great forum you have all created!


This is what I suspect as well, if I may suggest, take a few test exposures and experiment with less dilution to see if the problem persists.

Although considered less than idea by many, I have found with my water source and darkroom habits, dilution B works best for myself.



Oren,
are you saying that I am indeed using too little developer per sheet?.........

[mandoman7]

So... what happened with Jordan's dilemma?

[Stephen Willard]

I had the same problem with my JOBO ATL process and all of my expert drums. I finally narrowed the problem down to a leveling problem. I is not good enough to level the machine. You must level the machine with a level on the drum and the drum in the machine.

However, before you can do any leveling, you must find the position of the drum cover installed on the drum such that there is no wabble when the drum rotates. This will require repeated trails of taking the cover off and on until the drum does not wabble. Once you have found the right position then use a magic marker to trace the position of the cover on/around the drum. This will allow you to correctly install the drum cover on the drum each time. Only when you have done this can you level the drum and the processor together.

Use a small level and place some small magnets of the same thickness on each end of the level. This allows you to place the level directly on the drum surface without the ribs of the drum getting in the way and insures an accurate level.

You will find that each drum type levels differently. That is, my 3010s use a different shim than my 3005s which uses a different shim then my 3006s. I have cut different strips of wood of different thicknesses that slip under one end of the processor for each type of drum. I have a crowbar I use to lift one end of the machine when it is full of water so that I can install different strips of wood under it when I switch to a different drum type.

Hope this helps...

[mandoman7]

I would 2nd your comment, Steve, that levelling is often the cause of uneven or weird effects on the film edge. I had a cpp-2 years ago and learned that lesson, but forgot it when I got another one recently and found an edge defect from my 3005 drum. Making the effort to do it right paid off, measuring on the drum itself.

[Jordan]

Ok here's the update:
After having horrible results using a cpa2 processor with my 3005 drum I sold the processor and went back to my trusty Beseler motor base. After discovering uneven development in negs with large amounts of smooth sky I decided to tray process again after about 2 years. After some ok results tray processing one at a time I have decided to once again use my jobo 3005.
Now here I go again starting from scratch I feel like. So you guys say having completely level is vital..... you are probably right on with that assessment. I often eyeballed what I considered level. I never had that problem with my 3010 drum, but perhaps it being considerably smaller made a huge difference.
I want to continue using hc110. I tried xtol and find the tonal range to be not as nice as with hc110. However I know that hc110 is harder to control and need to come up with a suitable dilution that gives me enough development time and also enough developer per negative without weighing the motor base down and keeping it from rotating at enough rpms.
Any suggestions or add ons?

[Stephen Willard]

Jordon, I never had any problems with 3010 either. However, when I switched to the longer drums such as the 3005 and the 3006, then I started to have problems with uneven development in smooth skies. I have found that the longer drums need to be accurately leveled unlike the 3010. If you follow the procedure I noted above, then you will be fine.

I have tested the procedure with a densitometer and exposing an out of focus gray card up close and then actually measured the density variations after development. The variations I got were around +/- 0.03 density units which is about 100th of a stop in exposure units assuming 0.3 density units is equivalent to one stop of exposure. I doubt that small of a difference is possible to see with the human eye.

Hope this helps..

[mandoman7]

Steven, I'm glad to hear that you tested with the densitometer and it came out that close. I've been shooting some blue skies lately (Calif) and the development has been looking very good. I truly hate the uneven sky thing.

The 3005 seems more trouble to use in general. More chemistry, harder to dry out, more strain on the lift. I'm glad I got the 3010 for 4x5, but am keeping the 3005 for the 8x project down the road.

Jordan, I can't believe you decided to go back to a motor base after using the CPA. I guess a lot of guys are doing it, but after using one of those for color back in the 80's I don't have the patience anymore. But I do like the idea of minimalism, so go for it. You should be able to find a dilution with hc110 that affects the right combination of characteristics. I haven't used it for many years, but I used a nice plastic syringe that was good for measuring minute quantities of that stuff, and worked without using stock solutions.

JY

[Jordan]

I really appreciate all the help you guys have offered. I will make sure to keep you updated. Thanks Stephen and Mandoman.

[Chuck Pere]

In case you haven't seen it here's a site with lots of info on Hc-110:
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/index.html

[Jordan]

Back to this again.........
So I have been using the jobo 3005 on the motor base lately with excellent results except when I have a perfectly even sky. have been using HC110 like always as I don't care for xtol. I've been diluting my hc110 1oz syrup to 90oz water getting my development time to between 7-8 minutes. No matter what though in my smooth skies there areas of more density in the prints and scans. How does one tray process successfully for one negative at a time? For my negatives with clouds in the sky my Jobo does great. Sorry to bring this thread back.

[Kirk Keyes]

The variations I got were around +/- 0.03 density units which is about 100th of a stop in exposure units assuming 0.3 density units is equivalent to one stop of exposure.

0.03 density units is actually 1/10th of a stop...

[Jordan]

I took a lot of photographs in the seconds half of the last year. Because of the uneveness I was getting in the smooth sky areas I resorted to either only photographing when clouds were present or eliminating skies from my photographs all together. A number of those photographs are totally boring and nothing I am interested in printing any further. There were a few gems when the sky was cloudy though. This has lead me back to this thread once again. When I used the 3010 4x5 jobo on a beseler motor base that DIDN'T reverse I never had any issues with smooth skies at all. The 3005 8x10 on the same non-reversing motor base has been a totally different story. Not only have I been experiencing blotchy smooth skies but also what one would call bromide drag in areas where a tree and sky meet. Everything is level with the drum, capacities are good, so could these inconsistencies be a direct result of the drum only rotating in one direction? Thanks guys.

[largeformat apt]

I use a full litre of dev in the 3005

[Greg Blank]

I am going to offer to look at the problem. I have done lots of photo testing and use to test Forte papers. I also wrote a few film testing articles for View camera magazine. If you send me a link to an image that scanned and posted to your site of choice I think I'll probably be able to resolve the over all problem. If you would rather not post the link here send the link to my work email at gblank@omegasatter.com

I am also interested in this because I try to support Jobo stuff, and Omega sells the Jobo line products.




I took a lot of photographs in the seconds half of the last year. Because of the uneveness I was getting in the smooth sky areas I resorted to either only photographing when clouds were present or eliminating skies from my photographs all together. A number of those photographs are totally boring and nothing I am interested in printing any further. There were a few gems when the sky was cloudy though. This has lead me back to this thread once again. When I used the 3010 4x5 jobo on a beseler motor base that DIDN'T reverse I never had any issues with smooth skies at all. The 3005 8x10 on the same non-reversing motor base has been a totally different story. Not only have I been experiencing blotchy smooth skies but also what one would call bromide drag in areas where a tree and sky meet. Everything is level with the drum, capacities are good, so could these inconsistencies be a direct result of the drum only rotating in one direction? Thanks guys.

[Chuck Pere]

Why not try a test reversing the drum by hand every so often. Maybe every 60s for longer developing times.

[Stephen Willard]

I am going to offer to look at the problem. I have done lots of photo testing and use to test Forte papers. I also wrote a few film testing articles for View camera magazine. If you send me a link to an image that scanned and posted to your site of choice I think I'll probably be able to resolve the over all problem. If you would rather not post the link here send the link to my work email at gblank@omegasatter.com

I am also interested in this because I try to support Jobo stuff, and Omega sells the Jobo line products.

Hi Greg, you probably do not remember me, but I had problems with both my JOBO ATL 2 Plus and my CP-51. You were of great service and help with a fix for both machines. Glad to see you on this site. If any body can help, Greg can.

I have had problems with both the 3005 and 3006 drums and completely solved the problem of uneven development in clear skies with very accurate leveling of the drums as described above. I found using more chemistry did little to help the uneven development. To throw more chemistry at the problem will only serve to wear out the motor and lift arm sooner. I only use the chemistry JOBO recommends in its directions.

In all cases, I used reverse processing. I have never done otherwise, so I cannot speak of my own personal experiences. But I have heard that if you do not use reverse processing, then you can get streaking and irregular development.

There is something else that just occurred to me that I forgot about. The procedure for loading the 3010 with film is different then the other drums. With the 3010, the film is loaded into the separate tubes until it is flush with the top of the tube. With the other drums, the film is pushed all the way into the tubes. I initially was loading all drums like you are suppose to load the 3010 drum. I cannot remember when I made the change if it had any effect on the problem or not, but it is something to consider.

Greg, it would be great if you could post the results of your investigation on this site so others can benefit.

[dng88]

Just bought a CPA and now bidding and trying to get a 3005. This thread starts to worry me a bit. Any update on this?

I already got ATL1500 and CPE+. I only get this CPA and 3005 for 8x10 E6 processing. Cannot avoid cloud or sky I think. (The CPE is okish to develop 8x10 E6; just done 16 in 2 days and ruin only 4.) Looking forward forthe CPA/3005 ...

[Rui Morais de Sousa]

Hi,
I also use a CPP2, but NEVER turn it in only one direction! I can't remember where or when, but when I lived in Germany I recall reading in some Jobo literature that you should ALWAYS use the automatic reverse direction, if you wanted consistent results... Maybe you should try it, while you also maybe try to reduce the turning speed to F... I think that the main reason to exactly level the drum has mainly to do with the possibility to use very few chemicals, as it can happen with E-6 development, so that you are assured that the film is totally covered.
I sometimes use over one liter solution (with Rodinal 1+50 for instance) and don't think that it produces unevenness, maybe only motor strain (Jobo also claimed that the reverse rotation doesn't allow for a pattern to take place...). I have been using my Jobo for about 23 years now - I bought it used then, I made a lot of E-6 and BW developement with it, and I treasure it (with all the tanks that you mentioned). Of course, nothing is perfect, but I would try reverse rotation. I also don't/can't understand why you should not want to...
Greetings

[dng88]

For HC110, I think it is a minimum of 6ml per 8x10 sheet. Someone in this forum goes down to 4ml but I think 6ml is the minimum. Is the chemical amount a factor here?