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bulrich
2-Jul-2008, 11:15
I've been doing some 8x10 work with a Ebony RW810. Some exposures are up to a 1/2 hour, and in some cases I'm getting camera shake. The Tripod is very rigid but I notice the rear standard of the Ebony shakes pretty easily.
Can other 810 users tell me their experience with more rigid field cameras?

Walter Calahan
2-Jul-2008, 11:50
Get a Bogen magic arm with a clamp. Attach the arm to the tripod, and then clamp the other end to the rear of the camera.

I use two when shooting with a Nikkor 1200 mm. One for the front and one for the rear.

The other trick is to attach a second tripod to the camera to steady it.

Can't speak for an Ebony. I understand they are extremely well made. My rig is a Canham wooden 8x10. Probably about the same rigidness as the Ebony, but that's only speculation.

http://www.bogenimaging.us/Jahia/site/bius/pid/6780?kindOfProductCollectionRequest=productDetail&productCode=143N&productDescription=Magic%20Arm

John Kasaian
2-Jul-2008, 12:10
I've been doing nocturnal stuff with a Gowland Aerial for the past year. If you get the version with helical focusing you won't be stuck at infinity (like me)

Jim Galli
2-Jul-2008, 13:11
I know of no 8X10 camera more rigid than an Ebony.

JPlomley
2-Jul-2008, 13:19
Hmmm. Perhaps an Arca Swiss. Ditched the Ebony SV 45TE for an Arca Swiss, partially because of the rigidity factor. The difference was siginificant.

Michael Jones
2-Jul-2008, 13:19
I know of no 8X10 camera more rigid than an Ebony.

While I can't speak to an Ebony, I never found a camera more rigid than a Phillips 8x10.

mike

bulrich
2-Jul-2008, 14:39
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'd love to get my hand on a Philips but Dick no longer makes them at all.
Jim, nice work on your site. I'm using the RW810 and oddly it doesn't seem very rigid. Though the 4x5 I use is a Technika so perhaps I'm a bit spoiled.
Can't find any info on the Hobo. The Gowland looks interesting but I need some more movements than that.
Walter how does the Bogen clamp work?

Frank Petronio
2-Jul-2008, 14:59
What you need are a #5 Gitzo, sandbags, and a wind block. That's what car photographers did out the desert for long dusk shots. The camera itself is almost secondary, but you already know that a Sinar Norma, Arca Monolith, or a Linhof Karden are going to be the most stable of all. I can't imagine an Ebony being that much more or less stable than any of the other high quality field brands.

Robert Fisher
2-Jul-2008, 15:10
I have owned both Arca and Ebony 810's (SW810, non folder, and FMetric). The Ebony was SUBSTANTIALLY more stable. Both models on a heavy Gitzo, B2 and a 25 pound weight suspended from hook at bottom of tripod base.

In fact, I would never buy another 810 Arca for this exact reason.

Ole Tjugen
2-Jul-2008, 15:11
I have only fondled an Ebony, but I still believe the Gandolfi Traditional is more stable.

Jon Shiu
2-Jul-2008, 15:18
I think someone was selling a Toyo 810 on this forum.

Jon

Steve Hamley
2-Jul-2008, 15:28
I have an Ebony SV810, and although rigid, it seems to want to vibrate like a tuning fork when used with Compound #5 shutters, and I've experienced some unsharp results with those shutters. Nothings loose in the usual sense, but the front standard assembly apparently can flex quite easily. I've been using an AWB wind stabilizer with good results, which I got from The View Camera Store IIRC. You can find 8x10 field cameras that are rigid, but I haven't seen one yet that won't flex under normal forces.

As a side note, "wobbliness" doesn't always seem to be a good measure of unsharp photos; you'd swear my limber Korona 8x20 could never take a sharp picture, yet it consistently does. I once owned a Canham wooden 8x10 and like others remarked about the lack of stability in the rear standard, yet it took pictures as sharp as anything I've owned before or since. I always add the note that I sold it because I didn't like the ergonomics of the controls.

I'd try the wind stabilizer because it "ties" the front and rear standards together with no play. If the standards can't move relative to each other, it doesn't really matter what the rest of the camera is doing. There are vintage versions out there too; there's a picture of Edward Weston using one on his 8x10 with a 14" Kodak Commercial Ektar. He probably knew what he was doing. ;^)

Cheers,

Steve

Dave Wooten
2-Jul-2008, 15:37
Toyo 8 x 10 field camera is probably the most rigid, it is metal...next would probably be the Wisner. I have a Wista which seems to be more rigid-less flex in front standard, than an 8 x 10 Canham. As mentioned the bogen magic arm adds stability when the front is loaded with a heavy lens at full extension. I remember Kerik telling about his 14 x 17 Anthony taking a tumble forward when loaded with a large lens and extended. He has since successfully used the magic arm if I am not mistaken.

JPlomley
2-Jul-2008, 15:46
I have owned both Arca and Ebony 810's (SW810, non folder, and FMetric). The Ebony was SUBSTANTIALLY more stable. Both models on a heavy Gitzo, B2 and a 25 pound weight suspended from hook at bottom of tripod base.

In fact, I would never buy another 810 Arca for this exact reason.

That certainly does not parallel my experience in the 4x5 world. Very hard to beleive that an Arca in 8x10 would all of a sudden become less stable than its 4x5 counterpart. This is very Un-Arca like. Also hard to believe that if it is that unstable that one of the top landscape photographers in the world today uses an Arca 8x10 (Rodney Lough Jr). Go figure.

bulrich
2-Jul-2008, 16:01
Steve,
The wind stabilizer kit sounds like a good place to start. Some sandbags might help too.
I like the Ebony tons other than this issue. Though I am pushing a large camera to some really long exposures.

Here's an detail of it at it's worst:
http://www.notifbutwhen.com/2/Detail.jpg

Don Hutton
2-Jul-2008, 16:12
That looks like the film popped or moved in the holder - wind movement creates blurring, not a double image.

Eric Leppanen
2-Jul-2008, 16:47
That certainly does not parallel my experience in the 4x5 world. Very hard to beleive that an Arca in 8x10 would all of a sudden become less stable than its 4x5 counterpart.I have owned an Ebony SV810U and currently own an Arca F-Line Classic 4x5 and 8x10. My experience has been that, on balance, the Arca 8x10 is roughly comparable to the Ebony in terms of stability. The Arca 4x5 is definitely more stable than the Ebony 4x5's, or any other wood 4x5 field camera I have tried (haven't tried the Phillips yet). The Arca 8x10 rear standard loses a smidge of stablity in that, while being much larger than the 4x5 rear standard, it is still supported by the same sized function carrier, so there is greater theoretical potential to wobble. In practice, though, I have not found this to a significant problem, and I have found using long-lens support arms as supplemental supports to be easier on the Arca than the Ebony.

The most stable 8x10 camera I have ever used was a Toyo 810G, but that was hardly a field camera!

bulrich
2-Jul-2008, 17:13
Yes Don, it is odd, though I've checked the holders pretty well and it would be quite difficult for wind to not only get inside the holders to move film but for the film to move that much. I think because the exposures are so long and stopped down it creates the double image effect.

Walter Calahan
2-Jul-2008, 17:32
I mount a super clamp at either end of the magic arm.

One clamp attaches somewhere convenient on the tripod leg. The other clamp I attach to the front of the Canham. I don't lock the magic arm at this point.

I compose, set my focus, lock the camera and tripod down, then lock the magic arm. Then recheck composition and focus to make sure nothing moved.

Load film and shoot. I also put a small sandbag on the bed of the camera even when not using the magic arms.

Good luck with whatever ends up working for you.

Walter Calahan
2-Jul-2008, 17:37
Oh, and any view camera can act like a sail if there is any wind. Especially cross wind moving the bellows. The most expensive, ridged camera will move.

Don Hutton
2-Jul-2008, 17:38
Yes Don, it is odd, though I've checked the holders pretty well and it would be quite difficult for wind to not only get inside the holders to move film but for the film to move that much. I think because the exposures are so long and stopped down it creates the double image effect.
It's not wind that gets inside the holders and causes film to pop - it's usually a combination of humidity change and temperature which can cause the film to "pop" into a slightly different position. Also, you may be looking at film simply dropping down slightly in the film channels within the holder to due gravity - at some point during the exposure, it may be slipping down. A good tap or two along the top of the holder once it's inserted almost always guarantees that this won't happen and it helps if you have holders with tightish rails. The "popping" problem is a little more difficult and you should probably do a test with a holder where you have stuck a small piece of double sided tape on the middle of the septum holder and then tap the film onto it when you're loading it...

Don Hutton
2-Jul-2008, 17:40
Oh, and any view camera can act like a sail if there is any wind. Especially cross wind moving the bellows. The most expensive, ridged camera will move.Absolutely and one of the most understated advantages of using smaller formats under less than perfect conditions - you have a "smaller sail" and usually have shorter exposure times too due to larger comparative apertures for a particular given composition...

David A. Goldfarb
2-Jul-2008, 18:29
Toyo 8 x 10 field camera is probably the most rigid

I suspect that's right.

Paul Fitzgerald
2-Jul-2008, 18:38
bulrich,

"Here's an detail of it at it's worst:
http://www.notifbutwhen.com/2/Detail.jpg"

I think Don is right with the film 'pop', the film moved more on the right than the left. Camera shake or double exposure would not do that.

Good luck with it.

bulrich
2-Jul-2008, 19:13
Other than tape what could be done about 'pop'? Are some types of film more likely to behave that way? Certain holders? Or simply too long of an exposures with film that large?

David A. Goldfarb
2-Jul-2008, 19:25
Vacuum holders are an option. If you hunt around the net there is an astrophotography site with instructions for turning a 4x5" filmholder into a vacuum holder that can be operated with a bulb or a small vacuum pump, and the principles could easily be applied to other formats. I have a couple of 8x10" holders like this that I purchased from someone here on the forum, but they were very nicely manufactured, not home made, I'm not sure for what purpose originally--maybe also astrophotography. I haven't had much of a problem with film pop, though. I guess I just don't photograph under such conditions very often.

Oren Grad
2-Jul-2008, 19:41
Other than tape what could be done about 'pop'? Are some types of film more likely to behave that way? Certain holders? Or simply too long of an exposures with film that large?

Once in a very great while I've had a big negative pop on a long exposure under humid conditions.

If the subject and lighting allow, sometimes you can avoid pop by pulling the darkslide and letting the film equilibrate for a couple of minutes with the prevailing temperature/humidity before you open the shutter to make the picture. That is, you let it pop before you start making the exposure rather than during the exposure.

cjbroadbent
3-Jul-2008, 02:44
I was glad to learn about the pop problem. Maybe I avoided it by whacking the bottom edge of the holders soundly before inserting into camera. I do very long exposures and also pack a string shopping bag for heavy rocks found on site.
The weakest link is the head which puts the baricentre too far from the camera. So I eliminate the head and screw the camera directly to a swivel plate on a video tripod. (Viglen, carbon fibre with a very big cup and ball for levelling)

cjbroadbent
3-Jul-2008, 02:56
In reply to the original question, By far the most rigid 8x10 field camera I ever had was the Toyo. You have to make do with front focus, but that's no hardship outdoors.

archivue
3-Jul-2008, 04:38
my toyo 810 M is very rigid... the main problem is the tripod head !
i've find that the best combo was a gitzo leveling head and a sinar 2D.

i'm not shure that i will keep my 8X10... i have to raise money for a digital back...

archivue
1-Aug-2008, 02:28
You have to make do with front focus, but that's no hardship outdoors.

you can focus with the back also !

audioexcels
2-Aug-2008, 04:05
Hmmm. Perhaps an Arca Swiss. Ditched the Ebony SV 45TE for an Arca Swiss, partially because of the rigidity factor. The difference was siginificant.

Arca Monolith newest series should be pretty brutal for rigidity;):)

Michael Kadillak
3-Aug-2008, 07:48
As far as rigidity goes nothing beats a Linhof color Karden on the heavy pan/tilt head supported by a Linhof heavy duty tripod for those unique situations when necessary. I don't relish the thought of having to carry my Karden set up far from the truck, but the Germans do not compromise much when it comes to a solid platform for making photographs. I have used it in the field no problem so I guess it does qualify in this regard. Anyone that has used one of these cameras knows what I am talkng about.

Cheers!

Rick Moore
3-Aug-2008, 08:34
Oh, and any view camera can act like a sail if there is any wind. Especially cross wind moving the bellows. The most expensive, ridged camera will move.

You are exactly right. It seems to be a corollary of Murphy's law that the wind speed increases proportionately to bellows extension. I find using an umbrella to block the wind from striking the bellows adds more stability to my Canham 8x10 than other improvement I could make.

Wooden tripods, at least good ones like Ries, can dampen vibrations better than metal or carbon fibre tripods.

jesskramer
3-Aug-2008, 17:46
My vote goes to the Calumet C1

Jesse

Ron Marshall
3-Aug-2008, 17:54
Sinar P, on the Sinar pan tilt head.