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View Full Version : widest lens that covers 8x10



franklphoto
23-Jun-2008, 17:09
and doesn't distort?

Walter Calahan
23-Jun-2008, 17:15
I've heard tales of the GOERZ HYPERGON LENS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GOERZ-HYPERGON-LENS-No-000-F-60mm-VINTAGE-NO-RES_W0QQitemZ120275716723QQihZ002QQcategoryZ30076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Never seen one in person.

Me, any 120 mm will fit the bill. I just happen to use a Nikkor. There are other brands just as good, if not better. Whatever better is.

Good luck.

John Kasaian
23-Jun-2008, 23:15
Stuff done with my Wollensak 159mm WA Yellow Dot looks pretty natural to my eyes, but theres no wiggle room though so I'd have to say a lot depends on the subject matter.

Mark Sawyer
24-Jun-2008, 00:21
75mm Goerz Hypergon. I'm pretty sure the 60mm won't cover 8x10. Rare and exotic, expensive, sexy, temperamental and persnickity to use, and there's nothing else like 'em. Not even close. I think I'm in love...

Ole Tjugen
24-Jun-2008, 00:44
According to the sales brochures at the time, the 60mm Hypergon with fan should cover 18x24cm - but not quite 8x10". The rule was "with fan, 5x focal length; without fan, 3x focal length".

Emmanuel BIGLER
24-Jun-2008, 03:57
Me, any 120 mm will fit the bill.
Agreed with Walter.
And we could add the 115 mm Rodenstock Grandagon listed for 104 / 291 mm.
Not really exotic but reasonable.
According to the specs and confirmed by a friend of mine, although recommended for 5x7", covers just what is required for 8x10" with no movements.

David A. Goldfarb
24-Jun-2008, 04:04
Among modern lenses, I guess the 110mm/5.6 Super-Symmar XL.

Ernest Purdum
24-Jun-2008, 07:48
About "and doesn't distort". Any widest angle lens will produce odd-looking shapes in the corners. This isn't distortion, this is the actual way thinks look when seen from such an angular view. Our eyes don't notice it directly, but it can be weird when seen on a print.

If you meant the fish-eye view, that's a real distortion, not often seen in large format, though.

audioexcels
24-Jun-2008, 12:14
I've heard tales of the GOERZ HYPERGON LENS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GOERZ-HYPERGON-LENS-No-000-F-60mm-VINTAGE-NO-RES_W0QQitemZ120275716723QQihZ002QQcategoryZ30076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Never seen one in person.

Me, any 120 mm will fit the bill. I just happen to use a Nikkor. There are other brands just as good, if not better. Whatever better is.

Good luck.

How can you get movements with the Nikkor?;).

You know that lens is already at such a crazy price (Hypergon). I believe it is the 90mm that is the one that covers and beyond, but maybe the 60mm can also???

More curious about your success with the Nikkor 120 and movements, if you use a CF or just for-go it since coverage is minimal as it is. This may help the buyer since they are only $775 NEW from B&H.

audioexcels
24-Jun-2008, 12:15
75mm Goerz Hypergon. I'm pretty sure the 60mm won't cover 8x10. Rare and exotic, expensive, sexy, temperamental and persnickity to use, and there's nothing else like 'em. Not even close. I think I'm in love...

Ahhh...I thought it was the 90mm that covered 8X10 and with great movement potential...possible to cover larger formats.

audioexcels
24-Jun-2008, 12:21
Me, any 120 mm will fit the bill.
Agreed with Walter.
And we could add the 115 mm Rodenstock Grandagon listed for 104 / 291 mm.
Not really exotic but reasonable.
According to the specs and confirmed by a friend of mine, although recommended for 5x7", covers just what is required for 8x10" with no movements.

I have read the Nikkor will do it with basically the most minimalistic movements possible. The Schneiders will not w/exception of the 110 barely making it. I was always told the Grandagon cannot do it, though it fits right in that mix of the Schneider 120/8, Fujinon 125/8, etc. lenses for IC and the 110XL, though similar IC as the 120/8, is very underrated. I've heard the 90XL can light the GG, but does fall off on the very most corners...I suppose a neat lens for cutting out the drop-off sections of the film for still a nice sized print at probably around 6-7 by 9-9.5"'s.

Mark Sawyer
24-Jun-2008, 13:58
Ahhh...I thought it was the 90mm that covered 8X10 and with great movement potential...possible to cover larger formats.

I'm lucky enough to have a 75mm Hypergon, though I haven't made much use of it yet. One of these days...

Here's part of a comparison series I posted in some other thread a while back, just to show the difference in how lenses handled space. (Yes, I know, I got sloppy and let the camera get slightly off-level with the Hypergon image. Off just a little matters a lot with that lens...) Not all from the same tripod holes, (that would just be an exercise in in-camera cropping), but composed to keep the stump and stream bed roughly equivalent from image to image. All on 8x10, full-frame so you can see the corners get a little stretchy:

300mm ("normal") Velostigmat:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/300mmVelostigmat500hi.jpg


215mm ("moderately wide") Acuton:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/215mmAcuton500hi.jpg


121mm ("ultra-wide") Super Angulon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/121mmSA500hi.jpg


75mm ("hyper-wide"?) Hypergon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/75mmHypergon500hi-1.jpg

audioexcels
24-Jun-2008, 18:52
I'm lucky enough to have a 75mm Hypergon, though I haven't made much use of it yet. One of these days...

Here's part of a comparison series I posted in some other thread a while back, just to show the difference in how lenses handled space. (Yes, I know, I got sloppy and let the camera get slightly off-level with the Hypergon image. Off just a little matters a lot with that lens...) Not all from the same tripod holes, (that would just be an exercise in in-camera cropping), but composed to keep the stump and stream bed roughly equivalent from image to image. All on 8x10, full-frame so you can see the corners get a little stretchy:

300mm ("normal") Velostigmat:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/300mmVelostigmat500hi.jpg


215mm ("moderately wide") Acuton:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/215mmAcuton500hi.jpg


121mm ("ultra-wide") Super Angulon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/121mmSA500hi.jpg


75mm ("hyper-wide"?) Hypergon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/Owen21k/75mmHypergon500hi-1.jpg

I really like the look of both wide angles. A bit more contrast would be nice, but if I had to pick any of the shots, I'd likely move up to the trunk with the Hypergon and get more of the trees in (though I know you wanted to simply do a test of all the focal lengths at the same spot).

I have to say I beg to differ with those that feel the contact print with wide angles isn't so effective as those with normalish lenses such as the 300mm shot...nothing against the 300mm shot as it's great, as is the 210mm one, but I'd take probably the 300mm shot as the one many would prefer the most as a "traditional" type contact/out of camera print and the 121mm one as the one I prefer the most, though that Hypergon one is in between it and the 121mm as being second favored.

Thanks for the photos. I think this is a great series that really helps people get a feel for what can be expected from the use of the different focal lengths.

I take it these were just straight on/no movement based shots?

E. von Hoegh
24-Jun-2008, 20:55
Audioexcels; Do you ever take pictures, or do you just post questions? Really, I don't get it.

audioexcels
24-Jun-2008, 21:34
Audioexcels; Do you ever take pictures, or do you just post questions? Really, I don't get it.

I do both though my main camera is with the guy I trust most with and having a little conversion time done to it;) I will say I have not shot a sheet larger than 45 which has raised a lot of ?????'s on which size to go with as my larger than 45 size since I do not care for 45 other than the film being cheap and the camera size being "cute".

Nothing wrong with asking questions is there? I post questions to get a general idea of people's practices with photography. Sure, we all have our own way of doing things and our own methods, but I learn a lot from stupid or good questions I ask.

As an example, I posted a question regarding a format size I have been considering as either the primary or a reducing back for the larger size, and I got an exceptional answer that many may agree or disagree with, but I found it to be highly informative regarding the relationship of DOF and certain lenses that can be problematic depending on the format the person is shooting with (in this person's case, a size very close to one I am on to right now)...

SAShruby
25-Jun-2008, 15:36
How can you get movements with the Nikkor?;).

I believe doing close-ups would give you plenty of movement.

E. von Hoegh
25-Jun-2008, 21:59
I do both though my main camera is with the guy I trust most with and having a little conversion time done to it;) I will say I have not shot a sheet larger than 45 which has raised a lot of ?????'s on which size to go with as my larger than 45 size since I do not care for 45 other than the film being cheap and the camera size being "cute".

Nothing wrong with asking questions is there? I post questions to get a general idea of people's practices with photography. Sure, we all have our own way of doing things and our own methods, but I learn a lot from stupid or good questions I ask.

As an example, I posted a question regarding a format size I have been considering as either the primary or a reducing back for the larger size, and I got an exceptional answer that many may agree or disagree with, but I found it to be highly informative regarding the relationship of DOF and certain lenses that can be problematic depending on the format the person is shooting with (in this person's case, a size very close to one I am on to right now)...

I'd like to apologise to you, Audioexcels. I was tired and cranky when I made the above post. Not an excuse, or a justification; but an explanation.

I shall not let it happen again. Once again, I apologise.

audioexcels
26-Jun-2008, 21:20
I'd like to apologise to you, Audioexcels. I was tired and cranky when I made the above post. Not an excuse, or a justification; but an explanation.

I shall not let it happen again. Once again, I apologise.


No worries at all. I find the forum very intuitive and fruitful towards what I have learned and now the direction I am heading with going into a larger format. Though I have mostly played around with digital-120 film and some 45 in recent times, I'm wanting to see what I can do with larger film and out of camera contact printing. "Ideally", I'd like to also use one of my old WP cams and have it be used as a wetplate type cam. I have a lot of fascination for this type of process as it seems to get one possibly closer to a transparent looking image.

Point on the Nikkor by the above poster was a good one. Basically all wide angle lenses in tight can be used just fine with movements, but for me, I'm wanting to get a nice clean shot with landscape or architecture. I'm thinking the expensive and heavy 150XL or 150/8 (Nikkor) would do the trick.

beegee
27-Jun-2008, 19:14
the latest version Hypergon 60mm made by Zeiss will hit the corners of 8x10" . the 75mm Goerz Hypergon covers 8x10 with plenty of movements and perfectly rectilinear. There is no modern lens in 75 mm focal length made yet that covers 8x10" , period!! Although prices they might seem high in now days, they are not too far from the crazy prices paid for the gold dot dagors, etc !!!! any Hypergon is worth every nickel that you pay for it !!!!!!

Mark Sawyer
29-Jun-2008, 16:42
the latest version Hypergon 60mm made by Zeiss will hit the corners of 8x10" . the 75mm Goerz Hypergon covers 8x10 with plenty of movements and perfectly rectilinear. There is no modern lens in 75 mm focal length made yet that covers 8x10" , period!! Although prices they might seem high in now days, they are not too far from the crazy prices paid for the gold dot dagors, etc !!!! any Hypergon is worth every nickel that you pay for it !!!!!!

I hope so... the 60mm just closed at $3650! But I agree with you; considering what some other "cult" lenses go for, Hypergons are not outrageous, (you could spend more on a PS945 or new Cooke Triple Convertible). And the Hypergon is the only lens I can think of that has no comparable alternative whatsoever.

John Brady
30-Jun-2008, 07:20
Is there a 90mm that will come close to covering 8x10? I am waiting for an Ebony slw810 to arrive in a few weeks and I currently have the nikkor as my widest lens for it. I am looking to go as wide as possible and from the sounds of the price of the hypergon it is out of my league. I was thinking of using a 90 such as the nikkor w, fuji w or schneider xl and then cropping as necessary. Which of these 90's has the largest circle?

Thanks, john
www.timeandlight.com

Mark Sawyer
30-Jun-2008, 08:42
I don't think there are any 90mm lenses that will cover 8x10. The 110xl reportedly will; that's the widest I know of outside the Hypergon.

Ernest Purdum
1-Jul-2008, 10:43
Thanks for these pictures. Recent photos using Hypergons are pretty uncommon. I think members would be interested in what camera allowed you to get such a close lensboard to film distance. Were movements feasible? How much of the exposure did you use the fan?

Mark Sawyer
2-Jul-2008, 22:42
Thanks for these pictures. Recent photos using Hypergons are pretty uncommon. I think members would be interested in what camera allowed you to get such a close lensboard to film distance. Were movements feasible? How much of the exposure did you use the fan?

Most welcome, Ernest. Yes, recent photos, in fact, any photos, taken with the hypergon are pretty rare. I've heard Bill Brandt did some nudes with one, but I've never seen them, at least not identified as such. I really want to put together a little portfolio with mine. If anybody knows of any work done with the Hypergon, I'd be very curious to see it...

I've found that making an exposure with the fan about eight times the exposure without the fan seems about right. But since you're using a hand-held cover as a shutter, you can only work at longer exposures, and reciprocity failure comes into play. So (using FP4 and HP5) if you're main exposure reads one second, that's two seconds with reciprocity failure. And the exposure with the fan, instead of being eight seconds, is twenty-two seconds. Or if your main exposure is eight seconds, that turns into twenty two seconds, and with reciprocity failure, the accompanying fan exposure is seven minutes...

My Hypergon is on a Seneca Improved 8x10 with a leather bag bellows and a very short fold-down rail. It looks to be a factory-made wide angle camera, but that's just speculation. I made a special recessed lensboard for it, more to give extra protection to the lens than to shorten the standard-to-film distance. I also mounted a cable release on the lensboard to release the fan in mid-exposure, as doing it by hand would put your hand in the picture for part of the exposure, and perhaps shake the camera. And I adapted an air-bulb form an old Packard shutter to compress the air to spin the fan. Anyone getting a Hypergon should also plan on a dedicated camera with custom modifications to make it useable.

It can use all the rear swings and tilts the Seneca Improved has as standard, and while those are modest, they've seemed like enough, at least so far...

Some pictures of the 75mm Hypergon on the Seneca Improved 8x10, focused at infinity with the recessed board:

beegee
11-Jul-2008, 17:43
I hope so... the 60mm just closed at $3650! But I agree with you; considering what some other "cult" lenses go for, Hypergons are not outrageous, (you could spend more on a PS945 or new Cooke Triple Convertible). And the Hypergon is the only lens I can think of that has no comparable alternative whatsoever.

Boy!!! 3650 for a 60mm 'Hyper' is quite high !!!! so how much would be the 150 or the 200mm ??? 10,000 bucks ? that's what happens when two buyers are fighting ! well I guess I'd better treasure the mine

bglick
12-Jul-2008, 16:09
cos theta light falloff has to be extreme with those 65 - 90mm lenses. 3 - 4 stops? I also can't imagine the image quality holding up with angles that wide on the film.

Light fall-off is bad enough with my SS 110XL on 810, which I am guessing is the best mix of WA and image quality for 8x10. You must use the ultra expensive, but highly effective 2 stop Schn ND filter on 8x10, image quality is stunning for such a WA lens.

If a single sheet of film is not required for the final product, I would consider stitching, assuming you are digital. Either digital capture / stitch, or film capture / scan / stitch. It's the easiest way to solve the super WA problems...or a good rotational camera. If you want to square format, you can stitch at least 2 high of 120 film, to simulate super WA with no ill effects. Cameras like the Seitz 220VR have rise / fall, with the right lenses, you can shift high ehough to make two image stitch, getting back to the 4:5 aspect ratio

Steve Hamley
15-Jul-2008, 12:06
You can see exactly what a 90mm Hypergon on 8x10 looks like here:

http://www.glennview.com/

Cheers,

Steve