LF beginner - Advice on camera choice

[briandaly]

I'm interested in trying large format photography and would appreciate some advice on equipment choice.
I've read Steve Simmons' book and have some idea about camera movements and think that I would like to try a monorail camera.
My proposed main use for this camera would be portraiture so I think a 210mm, 240mm or 300mm lens would best suit me (I like to use 70mm to 110mm focal lengths in 35mm format).
Geared movements would appeal to me over non-geared movements.

I'm considering cameras such as the Cambo SC or Cambo Legend as they have a full range of movements on both standards but are cheaper than Sinar, Arca Swiss etc. .
I think that I can live without yaw-free movements, but would be interested to hear opinions on the benefit of this feature.

Can anyone make any recommendations based on the above?

Thanks,
Brian

[Peter K]

In Magnachrome Volume 1, Issue1 http://www.magnachrom.com/MCHome.php
you can read about the Linhof Kardan Bi camera.

[lenser]

Hi, Brian.

I use two systems.. The Cambo SCX is a wonderful monorail camera with more movements than I'll ever use, but thank God they're available for some of the commercial assignments I do.

My Zone VI, which is a wooden folding or clam shell type of field camera, has plenty of movements, but on a scaled back version compared to the Cambo. The movements in this camera are even enough to work with architectural subjects which require adjustments to make sure that walls don't converge unless you want them to do so on purpose.

Field cameras are also much lighter than the monorails and therefore easier to carry for location work.

When I use one for portraits, it's usually the Zone VI. Two reasons. One is that it is simpler and more direct to handle. The other is that for portraits, you just don't need the extreme movements. When I use either one for portraits, I pretty well leave the camera detents set at zero so I can just focus, slap in the film holder and get the image as quickly as possible.

That's because of the subject.

If you start fiddling with what the camera CAN do, just to prove the point, your subject has long since lost all interest and is getting both bored and fidgety. At that point, you might as well give it up.

As to lenses, if you're doing mostly head shots, you might want to look at the longer lenses, say around 250 to 300mm or longer to avoid the usual distortion problems that occur when the nose looks huge and the ears far away. That's occurs when you use a normal or wide angle lens and have to get very close to try to fill the frame with a head and shoulders or half length portrait. For full length images, a normal or even wider angle lens are fine.

Incidentally, both of these systems have interchangeable bellows so you can substitute a wide angle or bag bellows which allows much more range of movements with extreme wide angle lenses. Most monorails and some other field cameras have this option, but not all. If you think you will be shooting with anything wider than a 90mm in any of your work, you should consider only systems that allow you to use this option.

Good luck in the hunt.

Tim

[Bill_1856]

For portraiture/landscapes consider a Crown Graphic. You don't really need all the extra stuff such as lens/back movements, and if you decide that you want something fancier (or don't want LF at all) you can get your money back in reselling it.

[D. Bryant]

I'm interested in trying large format photography and would appreciate some advice on equipment choice.
I've read Steve Simmons' book and have some idea about camera movements and think that I would like to try a monorail camera.
My proposed main use for this camera would be portraiture so I think a 210mm, 240mm or 300mm lens would best suit me (I like to use 70mm to 110mm focal lengths in 35mm format).
Geared movements would appeal to me over non-geared movements.

I'm considering cameras such as the Cambo SC or Cambo Legend as they have a full range of movements on both standards but are cheaper than Sinar, Arca Swiss etc. .
I think that I can live without yaw-free movements, but would be interested to hear opinions on the benefit of this feature.

Can anyone make any recommendations based on the above?

Thanks,
Brian

Buy a Chamonix 45N-1. If you contact Hugo Zhang now you maybe able to take delivery of one in August. If you don't like it you can sell it for more than you paid.

I would avoid the Cambo's or any other monorail cameras.

I would also avoid the Crown and Speed Graphics, clunky cameras, IMO.


Don Bryant

[briandaly]

Thanks all for the replies.
I've thought about the Crown Graphic but it has limited movements.
My main motivation for trying LF is seeing what I can get with the camera movements, not to simply produce larger negatives (although this is an added benefit).
It may well be that once I've tried a whole range of movements, I'll stick with a few basic movements or even no movements at all. However, if I end up using the view camera just like a fixed-body camera, I might as well sell it and stick with more convenient formats.
Can anyone explain why they would use a large format camera but stick with zero detents? Is it simply for larger negative and therefore better image quality?

[Bob Salomon]

Check out the Linhof Kardan re if you are interested in a really good monorail Wista just released a new quince wood 45 field camera that should also be of interest.

[Bob Salomon]

When most people use a view camera they want to know that the tilts and swings are in the 0 position so they know that the standards are parallel before they start doing movements for corrections. The 0 detents make this very easy to ascertain. And they also make it less likely that the swings and tilts don't accidently move out of the 0 position when you don't want them to.

[Ron Marshall]

Thanks all for the replies.
I've thought about the Crown Graphic but it has limited movements.
My main motivation for trying LF is seeing what I can get with the camera movements, not to simply produce larger negatives (although this is an added benefit).
It may well be that once I've tried a whole range of movements, I'll stick with a few basic movements or even no movements at all. However, if I end up using the view camera just like a fixed-body camera, I might as well sell it and stick with more convenient formats.
Can anyone explain why they would use a large format camera but stick with zero detents? Is it simply for larger negative and therefore better image quality?

I shoot mostly landscape. On most shots I use front rise, sometimes front tilt, sometimes rear swing. Besides movements, the main benefits of LF to the final print is less noticable grain, greater detail and smoother tonality.

I strongly recommend that for your first camera you buy used. Once you get a feel for LF and a good idea of what you like to shoot you can sell it for about the same price.

For portraits and landscape usually only small movements, or none are required. Be aware of how much bellows extension is possible; to focus a 300mm for head and shoulders requires close to 400mm. Camera weight is an important consideration.

[briandaly]

Bob, what attributes has the Linhof Kardan range got over Cambo and which model in particular have you in mind?

Ron, I'll definitely be buying second-hand. Weight will not be a huge priority for me, as I don't plan to take the camera out of the house. If I feel I want to pursue LF further and be more mobile, I may then trade for a field camera. However, initially, I really want to get a good feel for what is possible with camera movements. If I start with a camera lacking certain movements, I'll always feel I've missed out:)

[Bob Salomon]

[QUOTE=briandaly;359139]Bob, what attributes has the Linhof Kardan range got over Cambo and which model in particular have you in mind?

The Kardan re. It has a fully geared 18" long monorail, 360° of front and rear swing, 75° of front and rear axis tilts, 3.3" of front and rear rise that can be extended to 6.6" and several inches of front and rear shift. So it has all movements. Takes lenses to 65mm on flat boards shorter lenses on recessed boards. Full range of Linhof accesssories. Medium weight, about 7 lbs. no lubrication is used so nothing to gum up - all brass on aluminum parallel movements. Adjustable brass shims to make focus and shifts locking or self-locking. Zero detents on tilts and swings.

Older versions of this model are the E, M, JBL.

[lenser]

Brian,

The idea for me behind zero detents is that if you don't need the movements for any given shot, don't muddy the waters by trying them just for the sake of trying them.


Certainly experiment on your own time (so to speak), but particularly in portraiture, movements are nearly unneeded.

In my experience, movements offer three different solutions to problems. One is in architecture where you need to either raise or lower the lens once you've leveled the film back to be certain of straight lines for buildings and rooms. Moving the lens then allows for more of the building (usually in height) to be brought into the area of view.

One other is working with products where your need to either skew the shape of the item or the plane of focus to bring everything in the image into focus. This is done with a combination of tilts and swings.

Third is in landscape when you want to bring not only distant , but also very close parts of the scene into sharp focus by using the Schiempflug rule and tilting the lens relative to the film. This is also part of the product usage only in a much nearer focus situation.

You mentioned portraiture as a specific need and only rarely do you need or even want to vary the planes of focus or movement when working with people. To do so creatively is fine as in if you want to say totally isolate only the eyes in focus and let the rest of the face and scene go progressively or even completely out of focus. But, about the only other time I can think of it's need in a portrait is if you have a steep down angle of the camera on an upright subject and want to move both the film and lens planes into parallel with the subject to keep the face and or body planes sharp throughout.

In practice, you may find that the actual movements are not nearly so much a need as a potential for just those times when you must use them. Then they are a godsend.

If you feel that you have to use movements because they are there, then you become a slave to the camera instead of devoting yourself to the subject.

Tim

[briandaly]

Bob, Thanks for the elaboration on the Kardan.

Tim, if not using any camera movements, am I really any better off than if using a fixed-body camera? I was thinking of creative applications such as you've mentioned (i.e. creating unusual perspective and planes of focus). For standard portraits without using movements, I cannot think of any reason why I would favour the view camera over medium format film, particularly as I seldom print bigger than A4.
Is there anyone here who likes to really go crazy with swings and tilts and do you have any links to the results?

[lenser]

Brian,

I'm not suggesting that you don't use the movements, just don't become obsessed with them. They are a tool and nothing more. A damned valuable tool, but still only a tool. That Schiempflug thing can take you places with depth of field that stopping down alone can't achieve.

I'm also certainly not suggesting that you have to go with large format. I use everything from 35mm to 8x10 and I choose the gear to go with the job unless a client specifies what format they want, assuming they accept film rather than digital.

For a long time, 35mm manufacturers have made special lenses to allow for some camera movements that mimic those that most large format cameras have built in. Nikon, Olympus and Canon all made shift lenses (Nikon and Canon still do) for architecture. And several years ago Canon introduced tilt shift lenses, some in focal lengths that were suitable for portraits and which allowed the kind of plane of focus isolation that we both mentioned. For awhile, images made with the tilt shift lenses were a huge rage in advertising. Art directors seem to fall in love with them for faces, jewelry, etc. Only thing is, it took almost as long to set up with those as with large format.

Among medium format gear, Fuji comes to mind as having made a camera with built in bellows that allowed for a pretty wide range of movements. Decades before, Mamiya built the Press and Super Press 23's that had a unique bellows that popped out of the back of the camera, extending the film plane backward and offering limited movements for perspective controls there. There may well be others.

So, of course you don't have to use large format at all.

Having said that, there is just a certain mystique involved in large format. It's not there for everyone, but if you catch the bug it's an OMG kind of experience.

For some it's the movements. For others it's the first time they hold a 4x5 or 8x10 transparency that they created themselves. Something that huge compared to a 35mm slide is about as exciting as it can get. You can almost fall into it.

For many, it's both of those plus the huge advantage of being able to select a myriad of lenses that are either currently made or have been around for well over 150 years to create highly individual images to express one's own vision of the world. For them, it is all about the artistic expression that can't be found the same way in any 'fixed' body camera with only dedicated lenses.

There are other advantages as well.

First of all there is the absolute requirement (dictated by size of the camera and the methodology that you must use) of thinking while you are preparing.

This is not a system that you can just react with. Even the 4x5 press cameras, the old Crown and Speed Graphics and Bush Pressman's are only fast if you've gotten the film preloaded, preset the shutter and pre-focussed on a zone where you hope the action will take place. And then you still have to repeat that whole process for a second shot while flipping the film holder, etc.

Really thinking about the image and what you need to do with the camera to make it happen is one of the great beauties of large format.

Then there is the incredible potential for image quality. For portraits, please take a look at the work of such geniuses as Karsh, George Hurrell, Arnold Newman, Irving Penn and Richard Avedon. Most used large format exclusively and you can seriously see the difference.

Particularly Hurrell and the other brilliant Hollywood glamor shooters of the thirties and forties give us something from those 8x10 negs that just cant be found any other way.

Same in landscape and commercial images. The phenomenal range of tones and sharpness can't be matched with smaller formats and is only approached by what I've seen in digital so far.

Photography is your journey of expressing your. Large format may or may not be one road on that tour for you. It may be best if you can find someone near you who is willing to show you and let you practice with some of their gear before you make the commitment. Most of us seem to be a pretty sharing bunch of folks, so good luck with how ever you decide to get your images.

Tim

[Frank Petronio]

There are a lot of opinions, from using a very simple Crown Graphic with limited movements in order to get your feet wet in a simple and expedient manner -- to using a nice wooden field camera (the Chinese ones are a great value) -- to picking up a fully featured monorail with nearly unlimited movements.

My opinion? Until you try all three approaches you won't know what's right for you, and your needs will change once you start shooting large format anyway, just like any other specialized obscure activity ;-) Take up fly fishing or bowling or anything else, and if you want to perform at a high level you have to experiment.

With eBay it is easy to buy and sell -- trade really -- without loosing much of your original investment if you are careful and prudent. So start with a simple Crown to learn how to manage the larger film and all the other rudimentary details, the after a few months flip it for a nice monorail (I think Linhof monorails are especially nice quality and value if bought used), and then try one of the super wooden field cameras like the Shen-Hao or the even nicer Chamonix.

Once you progress through those you'll know what works best. I have owned maybe 20 lf cameras, from 6x9cm to 7x17, Sinars, Arcas, Linhofs. And I like the simple Crown Graphic best. But if I hadn't shot with all those others I wouldn't know how much to appreciate it.

Same for lenses -- start with just one medium/normal and keep it very simple... try a wide, try a tele...

[Bruce Barlow]

I suggest that you get an inexpensive field camera, such as a used Tachihara, Osaka, or Wista, and a 210mm lens. Use them until you really need to do something that they can't do, then get what will. You want to try 4x5 portraits because they're about as much fun as anything I've ever done, and are a completely different experience for you and the subject than 35mm or MF.

We've known folks who got the "unlimited flexibility" camera, only to be completely intimidated by it. Get something you won't mind beating up, and more specifically, will be unafraid to use. This is not a minor point.

And, pick up a used Polaroid 545 holder and some Polaroid Type 72, and make instant portraits with it. You'll learn fast, and make extraordinary pictures that people will love. I do it on the street and give them away, just for the practice.

The same inexpensive field camera and 210 lens will also make wonderful landscapes and just about anything else you want to do. I got my Wista 25 years ago. Supplemented it with an 8x10 because the Wista is only 4x5 (duh!), but I have yet to need more than what the Wista can do. I did later buy a 120mm lens...

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks all for the replies. . . . Can anyone explain why they would use a large format camera but stick with zero detents? Is it simply for larger negative and therefore better image quality?

Movements are used primarily for two purposes, to alter the plane of focus and to control the shape of objects. Neither of those purposes is usually necessary or desirable for what I think of as "portraiture" but perhaps you have something else in mind, I don't do a lot of portrait work.

[John Kasaian]

Look at Calumet 400 series (get the long one to utilize the focal lengths you mentioned using rather than the short railed version used for architectural photography) or a Graphic View II. Very inexpensive cameras that will do all you've stated that you want to do. $250 or so should get you a primo example. I've got an ancient Tiltall tripod for my GVII and one of those might set you back all of another another $70 or so on ebay. There are lots of good portrait lenses---I happen to like the 162mm Wollensak Velostigmat and 203mm Ektar--either one should be available in a good shutter for around $200 or less if you shop around--- but there are many, many others worth considering.
For used film holders the old style Riteway plastic ones seem to be the most bullet proof IMHO, along with Bacos (got to love a film holder named after a condiment! :) )

Talk to Jim at Mid West Photo, maybe he can put a kit together for you.
Enjoy and have fun! :)

[Nick_3536]

One reason to get a big strong heavy camera is to use BIG HEAVY old lenses. Some of the old portrait lenses are bigger then a small car. Sticking that heavy lump on the front of a light weight field camera is fun.

If you really are :

1) Not leaving the studio

2) Printing A4 ish in size

3) Doing protraits

4) Yet want movements to try [still life??]

Forget all the suggestions and get yourself a big 8x10 monorail. An equally big and strong tripod. Or maybe somebody can suggest a studio stand. Add a 4x5 back if you want. Or shoot 8x10 and contact print.

8x10 studio monorails tend to be very good deals. They are just too heavy for most to hike with so the used market isn't that big.

[eduardtoader]

hello! I´m beginner too. I met the Linhof Kardan E in very good conditions but the format is 9/12 cm. I don´t know that is a good camera, or that deserve to pay 800 euro for it (it come with a 150mm I don´t remember witch "F"). I want to use this camera for landscape shootigs, some portraits, architecture, but the frequent use will be nature photography (landscape and some macro).
Please help me. Thank you.

[Lachlan 717]

Also consider the Horseman cameras if you're still going down the rail path.

They're very well built, half the price of a (geared) Sinar, yet allow many of the Sinar parts to be interchanged (lensboards, bellows, focusing viewers, auto shutters and their DB lenses etc).

Don't underestimate the advantages of easily being able to source additional parts and the associated cost benefits.

And, to my eye, they're a great looking camera!