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Bill_1856
13-Jun-2008, 07:35
Why did Copal shutters replace Compurs? Was it because they are better? Or cheaper? Or just part of the Zeiss meltdown?

Jim Galli
13-Jun-2008, 07:38
Yes.

Kevin Crisp
13-Jun-2008, 08:10
Jim: You think better? I've certainly had good luck with 1950's compurs and we'll see how the copals do when they get that old. I've certainly had my share of copal problems.

Jim Galli
13-Jun-2008, 08:21
Jim: You think better? I've certainly had good luck with 1950's compurs and we'll see how the copals do when they get that old. I've certainly had my share of copal problems.

Compur's seem fussier oftener to me. Maybe it's the dry desert air.

Frank Petronio
13-Jun-2008, 08:43
Late model 1970s-90s Compurs feel like they're higher quality than Copals of the same age. But Copal parts are easier to find and cheaper.

BrianShaw
13-Jun-2008, 09:04
Compur's seem fussier oftener to me. Maybe it's the dry desert air.

I don't know if it is dry air or not, but I can relate to the "fussier" comment. Compurs seem to have a greater need for being clean and properly lubricated, whereas Copals seem to be willing to run even when a little dirty and dry. In my mind Compurs are the equivelent of a fine Swiss watch and Copals are the equivelent of a Japanese copy of a fine Swiss watch: both can tell decent time.

Atul Mohidekar
13-Jun-2008, 09:21
I have a lens mounted in Compur 3 that was probably manufactured in mid 1980s. Subjectively, this shutter feels heavy duty and is EXTREMELY smooth compared to Copal shutters.


// Atul

Gene McCluney
13-Jun-2008, 09:40
My opinion, I think it was economics. The Compur (brand) made in Germany could not compete price wise with the Copal brand, thus lenses mounted in Compur shutters could not be sold for the same price as if they were mounted in Copal. Large Format lenses are expensive enough already..
So probably, lens makers trended towards Copal shutters to keep prices down, and Compur shutter sales fell to the point of being unprofitable.

Bob Salomon
13-Jun-2008, 10:05
Prontor Werke, the manufacturer of Compur and Prontor shutters, discontinued the manufacture of all mechanical shutters in the late 90s. They gave each of their customers (Rodenstock, Schneider, etc.) the opportunity to place one last order for shutters with no guarantee that they would be able to ship all of the shutters ordered (in other words the orders were limited to parts and shutters already on hand). When those orders were shipped Prontor Werke stopped delivery and production of all mechanical shutters. They still manufacture the Prontor Magnetic shutters but they do not manufacture a controller for it for photographic applications (they discontinued their controller and exposure meter system for the Prontor Magnetic System in the mid 80's) Some manufacturers do sell a controller for the Prontor Magnetic shutter (that is what the Schneider Electronic shutter actually is). But these are rather expensive shutters and would not really replace the line of mechanical shutters like the Compur and Prontor Professional which were made in 0, 1 and 3 sizes at the end.

So that left Copal as the survivor in the mechanical shutter market. Other shutters currently available include the Rollei Linear Motor, Copal Press and the Prontor Magnetic (Rodenstock also sells a controller for this shutter and the Horseman ISS shutter. Like the Prontor Magnetic and the Rollei Linear Motor shutters the ISS is also driven electronically and requires a controller.

As a reference the Copal is made in 0,1 and 3 sizes. Copal Press in 0 and 1 sizes. Rollei in 0 and 1 sizes, Prontor Magnetic in 0 and 1 sizes and the ISS is available in 0, 1 and 3 sizes.

So you are aware, some companies like Linhof did offer spare Compur shutters in their programs as recently as 2000. But none are left at any lens or camera manufacturer for resale today.

Bob Salomon
13-Jun-2008, 10:23
As an aside to this question the inventor of the shutter that became the Compur shutter was Valentin Linhof which he invented in the 1890s and sold to companies like Kodak and Voigtlander, Goerz, Steinheil, Zeiss, etc. When he sold the shutter design to Fredrich Deckel company (one deckel building is still next door to the Linhof factory in Munich). Deckel shutters were eventually was absorbed into the Zeiss family and became part of Prontor Werke and that shutter that Linhof invented became the Compur shutter.

And that Prontor Magnetic shutter system with controller was the Prontor Autolux system. This was Prontor's version of the Sinar Electronic shutter and metering system.

Glenn Thoreson
13-Jun-2008, 10:36
I use a number of Compur shutters from the '20s. I would like to live long enough to see how long a Copal shutter really lasts. Longer than I will, even if they don't hold up well, I'm afraid. :D

Dave Brown
13-Jun-2008, 12:58
It's hard to add to what Bob said above, but the late S.K. Grimes told me that it was better to have my Compurs replaced with Copals than to get them CLA'd.

Frank Petronio
13-Jun-2008, 14:04
Just to add a reference, the late model 1980s-90s Prontors look a lot like Compurs but are entirely different animals in use. I thought that I liked them, but then I noticed that the increased force needed to fire a self-cocking "press" shutter was imparting a fair amount of vibration into my handheld work.

They also seemed a bit buggier than Compur/Copals and only went to 1/125th of a sec.

BrianShaw
13-Jun-2008, 14:22
It's hard to add to what Bob said above, but the late S.K. Grimes told me that it was better to have my Compurs replaced with Copals than to get them CLA'd.

I realize that the late SKG is revered in an almost saintly way and his words are often repeated as if Gospel... but that just isn't correct, unless your Compurs needed parts.

Amund BLix Aaeng
13-Jun-2008, 14:23
FWIW, the Compur Electronic I have for my 16 1/2" R.D Artar is extremely reliable, right on on every shutter speed(right up to 32 seconds), but when it dies I`m [toast]...

BrianShaw
13-Jun-2008, 14:27
My experience is only with the Compur mechanical shutters. If Dave was talking about electronic shutter, then I take my words back. Amund sums up the situation with Compur Electronic shutters quite eloquently. ... now go was your mouth out with soap :)

Amund BLix Aaeng
13-Jun-2008, 14:30
My experience is only with the Compur mechanical shutters. If Dave was talking about electronic shutter, then I take my words back. Amund sums up the situation with Compur Electronic shutters quite eloquently. ... now go was your mouth out with soap :)

:) I did a slight edit ;)

Really Big Cameras
13-Jun-2008, 17:59
As an obsessive ounce counter, I've always liked the late all-black Compur 0 shutters as they weigh a little over an ounce less than a Copal No. 0. However, my experience echoes Brian's - my Compur shutters require much more frequent CLAs than my Copals.

Conversely, the few late all-black Compur 1 shutters I've had were significantly heavier than a Copal No. 1.
Late Compur 0 and 1 shutters also lack a "T" setting, which makes them slightly less convenient for really long exposures. Also, I can't stand the location of the "B" setting on the late Compur 1 shutters. It's at the high end of the shutter speed scale, next to 1/500 sec - not at the low end of the scale next to 1 sec where it belongs. Oddly, they got it right on the Compur 0. So, not only did they get it wrong on the Compur 1, they aren't even consistent.

BTW, the Copal shutters have been around for over 45 years now. So, while they might not have quite the track record of the Compur shutters, they aren't exactly unproven.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras

EuGene Smith
13-Jun-2008, 20:02
I'm no shutter expert, but I have used a number of different shutters over the years and really didn't find a whole lot of difference between the Copals and Rim-set Compurs. But, I have always preferred the old Dial-set Compurs the best . . . they just keep on truckin'. To clean 'em, just swish 'em around in some trichloroethane or acetone, blow dry 'em, screw the lenses back in place, and go shoot some more.

EuGene

P.S. Make sure you get the ones with metal iris & shutter blades - the hard rubber ones don't get along with most solvents.

John Kasaian
13-Jun-2008, 20:12
I'm no shutter expert, but I have used a number of different shutters over the years and really didn't find a whole lot of difference between the Copals and Rim-set Compurs. But, I have always preferred the old Dial-set Compurs the best . . . they just keep on truckin'. To clean 'em, just swish 'em around in some trichloroethane or acetone, blow dry 'em, screw the lenses back in place, and go shoot some more.

EuGene

P.S. Make sure you get the ones with metal iris & shutter blades - the hard rubber ones don't get along with most solvents.

Yup, dial set compurs rock!:D My circa 19 ought-something or other 14" Artar has lived aboard one of 'em probably all it's life and it still purrs!

Emmanuel BIGLER
14-Jun-2008, 08:00
Many thanks to Bob Salomon for the fascinating story and explanations about German leaf shutters.

May be we could add for our readers worldwide some historical notes.
Compur shutters were manufactured by Compur Werke in Munich, originally a subsidiary of the Friedrich Deckel company. The Deckel company manufactured precision machine-tools and the Deckel brand still exists, we have here several vintage Deckel machine-tools and a brand-new Deckel-Maho laser engraving machine. My understanding is that the manufacture of Compur shutters was independant from the Deckel machine tools for a long time before the Compur factory, Compur Werke in German, was closed down at the end of the seventies of the last century. Compur Werke, already controlled by the Zeiss foundation for a while, were probably experiencing red figures on a monthly basis at the time due to the harsh Japanese competition on consumer camera products. Hasselblad lenses stopped to use the Synchro Compur shutter at the time when Compur Werke stopped to exist, the next Hasselblad shutter being the Prontor CF (see below).
After 1980, the Compur brand continued to exist as a product line of the Gauthier company, home of Prontor shutters, actually, as far as I know, the only other West German company still manufacturing mechanical leaf shutters in the 1970's. There were some East German shutters fitting Zeiss-Jena lenses ("prestor") but they are lesser known.
Actually, Gauthier was also controlled by the Zeiss foundation so it did make sense that the declining market of leaf shutters in the 1970's commanded the Zeiss foundation to maintain only one production line at the Gauthier factory in Calmbach, in the Black Forest. Hence the Prontor CF for Zeiss lenses fitting the Hasselblad. At the time, Rollei had switched to home-made electronical leaf shutters, among the last Synchro- Compur #0 fitted the Rolleiflex 2,8 GX TLR for a limietd period of time after 1987; after that, Rollei had to use Japanese mechanical shutters (Copal and Seiko).

About Calmbach and Prontor : the Black Forest, the across the Rhine valley with respect to Alsace in France, is a place where an old tradition of horology, fine crafstmanship and precision mechanics existed like in the nearby Swiss and French Jura mountains. Cukoo clocks actually come from the Black Forest in Germany and nowhere else ;)
--
Now about the reasons for the demise of the production of mechanical German leaf shutters for view camera lenses at the end of the XX-st century, suffice to say that when I bought my first new Rodenstock view camera lens in June 2000, as an uncompromising euro-patriot there was no question about the choice of my shutter : it should come from Cambach, period. ;)
But the premium I had to pay as the final customer either for a Compur or a Prontor Professional was about 250 euro extra with respect to the copal option. Outch ! This represented about 15-20% of the total price (lens + shutter).
Eventually I ordered the self-cocking Prontor Professional, mostly because the Compur dit not really bring anything more than a COpal. I do not regret and looking for used lenses if I can find a prontor professional, I am happy.

But I do have some new copals and appreciate them : the only difference I can foresee between the Compurs-Prontors and the Copal is that the life time of the Compurs-Prontors will probably exceed one century if properly cleaned, lubed and adjusted like any fine mechanical watch, whereas the expected lifetime of a Copal if properly cleaned, lubed and adjusted will probbably be 99.9 years ;-)

Bob Salomon
14-Jun-2008, 09:47
There was a major difference between modern Compur and modern Copal shutters. The Compurs had 1/2 or 1/3rd click stops (disengageable on some versions) where Copal had no click stops. In addition modern Compur as well as all Prontor Professional shutters accepted aperture flags that allowed setting the aperture from behind the camera and some suppliers of Compur shutters also offered shutter speed flags so the shutter speed could also be set from behind the camera. Unlike the Prontor Professional flags the Compur ones meshed with small gears on the back of the shutter and were attached to the shutter by small screws so they could not be attached and removed like the Prontor Professional ones. There were also differences in top shutter speeds between modern Compur and modern Copal shutters but since I am home today I don't have those reference sheets here.

So Copal and Compur - modern versions - while apparently very similar actually had different features which help to explain the price differential between them. It was not simply a matter of German vs Japanese costs.

Alex Tymków
14-Jun-2008, 10:43
Hi Bob
Can you date a Copal shutter by the serial number. I have a number 3 shutter sn 7724xx. The lens is a Komura, difficult to date. Any suggestions would be welcome.
Alex

Bob Salomon
14-Jun-2008, 10:44
Hi Bob
Can you date a Copal shutter by the serial number. I have a number 3 shutter sn 7724xx. The lens is a Komura, difficult to date. Any suggestions would be welcome.
Alex

Sorry, I don't have those records.