Police forced photographer to hand over film

[Ron Marshall]

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0824,shoot-first-hand-over-film-later,464895,2.html

[Walter Calahan]

We all know how photographers are ruining the world.

[uniB]

what a ridiculously paranoid world we've become. Thanks to the over sensationalising press then for that.

[Gordon Moat]

In the US (and many other countries) being forced to hand over film (or your camera) is coercion. It is illegal for a law enforcement person to use. If the story is believable, then there is a huge lawsuit waiting here.

[David Luttmann]

I had a run in with a security (mall cop type) guard. He basicially threatened me to delete the data on my card. Someone witnessed this and assisted me. He no longer has a job as a result of our efforts. These fools need to be put in their place.....and quick!

[MIke Sherck]

He should never have given up the film. That cop and the woman and her family now believe they have a right to force photographers to do that and it's just going to be more difficult for the next one of us.

If you don't stand for your rights, who will?

Mike

[Deane Johnson]

I don't know how I would have reacted, given the speed these things happen, but I sure would have liked for the photographer to refuse to give up the film. Let the lady and the cop pursue their way right into a lawsuit.

It seems that some of the photographic organizations need to educate photographers as to their rights so they know what to do in advance of these confrontations, then there needs to be a body formed ready to pursue infractions with legal action. If a few people felt the brunt of some lawsuits, things might change.

[BrianShaw]

In the US (and many other countries) being forced to hand over film (or your camera) is coercion.

... and someone taking your film (or anything else) when they have no right to do so is CONVERSION.

In this story, the photog has just as much of a case against the woman, or the "friend of the woman," who took his film on the agreement to process and return.

I chuckled at the part where the photog actually followed the lady over to the cops and then continued to dialogue without even asking "are you going to arrest me? If not, I'm walking away."

[Ron Marshall]

It seems that some of the photographic organizations need to educate photographers as to their rights so they know what to do in advance of these confrontations, then there needs to be a body formed ready to pursue infractions with legal action. .

It seems to me the police are the ones that need to be educated.

[robert amsden]

He shoud sue the stormtrooper pig.

[Scott Knowles]

Maybe photographers, especially family portrait and/or wedding photographers, should boycott taking any images of children? If parents began to realize they can't be selective when and where they want images of their children, especially in public, maybe they'll understand? I doubt it, but somehow parents need to understand the public space and individual rights as no laws are broken.

The photographer should not given up his film and should have asked the cop at the scene to call into his supervisor for a decision on the law in NYC about photographing in public.

[Marko]

I don't know, but if the cop didn't explicitly threaten him with arrest or physical force, then he was essentially talked into surrendering his film. And that might be made to sound like it was voluntary...

Bottom line is, he should not have surrendered the film, he should have asked the cop for probable cause (for search) and for the exact law he was allegedly breaking. He should also have asked the cop for his name and badge number as well as for the names of other involved parties.

Even better, he should not have walked with the parent over to the cops, he should have called the police on his own and complained of harassment and assault.

He would have had much better chance of successful lawsuit if he were actually detained and had the film forcefully taken from him.

[Navy Moose]

I would have used some colorful language, I learned in the Navy, with the woman if she confronted me like that. If the police later found me still taking photos, I would have politely asked them to call their supervisor and hand them a copy of "Photographers Rights" I carry in all my camera bags.

I don't like lawyers, but I would not hesitate to call one of the ones in my speed dial.

[Frank Bagbey]

Always carry an exposed roll of film in your opposite pocket. When forced hand that film over. Usually the dummies will never know the difference. At least pull a switcharoo of somekind.

[Neil Purling]

I have heard a few cases of over-zealous police doing the same sort of thing in the UK. The problem is that over here we don't have such well defined rights as a US citizen might.
The only trouble I ever had was when I was photographing the South Transept of York Minster. It was with my Crown Graphic 4x5 so I was naturally taking my time.
Anyway I'm doing mything & minding my own business. Then I get someone saying to me in a loud voice: "Have you been taking pictures in the other direction"?
I wondered what the hell he was on about so I took the dark-cloth off my head and looked behind me. I was totally unaware that the place behind me was a school and it was now break time.
It rapidly dawned on me what he was insinuating. I am sure that you can understand that I too used some dirty language, expressing my opinion on his parentage and that he might like to remove himself from my presence immediately.

No cop trouble. Sometimes people are curious as to why I am using such a ancient camera. If it is a public event I am still asked if I am a journalist!!
This little incident could have got extremely unpleasant though. It was the only time I ever saw 'red' and I wanted to wrap my tripod around his head at the time.

[David Luttmann]

Always carry an exposed roll of film in your opposite pocket. When forced hand that film over. Usually the dummies will never know the difference. At least pull a switcharoo of somekind.

I like that idea Frank. And every shot on the roll would be a picture of my ass.

[Brian Ellis]

The heading of this thread says "Police forced photographer to hand over film." I read the article. I didn't see where the police forced the guy to do anything. Seems to me the guy was a wuss and handed over the film voluntarily just because the cop said things could get much worse, without saying how or why and without the photographer asking. If the cop had threatened physical force to get the film or threatened arrest or anything like that it might be a different matter but just talking the guy into giving up his film doesn't sound like force to me, sounds like intimidation of a guy who was easily intimidated (not to say I wouldn't have done the same thing he did under the circumstances).

[Ron Marshall]

The heading of this thread says "Police forced photographer to hand over film." I read the article. I didn't see where the police forced the guy to do anything. Seems to me the guy was a wuss and handed over the film voluntarily just because the cop said things could get much worse, without saying how or why and without the photographer asking. If the cop had threatened physical force to get the film or threatened arrest or anything like that it might be a different matter but just talking the guy into giving up his film doesn't sound like force to me, sounds like intimidation of a guy who was easily intimidated (not to say I wouldn't have done the same thing he did under the circumstances).

Police intimidation was what compelled him (forced him in this particular case) to hand over the film.

The important thing to grasp, is that the actions of the police were overzealous, at best, and probably illegal.

[paulr]

Always carry an exposed roll of film in your opposite pocket. When forced hand that film over. Usually the dummies will never know the difference. At least pull a switcharoo of somekind.

Didn't Chris Jordan say he did this? The funny part is that he shot 8x10, but would hand over a roll of 35mm film to the security guards. Apparently no one questioned it.

As extra insurance, in case the guards went to the trouble of getting the film developed, each dummy roll contained 36 exposures of the photographer's ass.

[cyrus]

The heading of this thread says "Police forced photographer to hand over film." I read the article. I didn't see where the police forced the guy to do anything. Seems to me the guy was a wuss and handed over the film voluntarily just because the cop said things could get much worse, without saying how or why and without the photographer asking. If the cop had threatened physical force to get the film or threatened arrest or anything like that it might be a different matter but just talking the guy into giving up his film doesn't sound like force to me, sounds like intimidation of a guy who was easily intimidated (not to say I wouldn't have done the same thing he did under the circumstances).

When a guy with a badge and a gun instructs you to do something, people tend to do it. This is an inherently coercive encounter. You have to be an a-hole like me to stand up to authority.

[cyrus]

I was standing around in Times Square, taking photos of whatever and whoever, when this rather large fellow came up to me and said "Why did you take a photo of my wife"? I looked at him, and looked around and saw that his wife was rolling her eyes at him, clearly upset that he was acting this way. I asked him, "Who is your wife"? He pointed her out, and I replied, "Wow! her? Because she's a hottie!" He laughed and said "Yeah she is!" and so did she and thinks worked out...whew! True story!

[Ash]

I took pictures all over london yesterday, funniest thing was accidenting over the Banksy "One Nation Under CCTV" mural.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/04_03/Banksy2CCTVSPL_468x443.jpg
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-559547/Graffiti-artist-Banksy-pulls-audacious-stunt-date--despite-watched-CCTV.html


I visited 12 galleries all over the very big, and dangerous, city. Not once did I get a problem. In fact a nice old chinese guy saw me taking photo's of a building, when I was done (yep, when I was finished, not disturbing me) he came over and had a chat about the specific gallery and how famous it was. He must have lived in the area a long time.

A previous trip to London last year had me taking photo's of a rally (protest march). Maybe 20 photographers or more, and I took a group shot and a guy still came up to me hassling me that I'd taken his picture. Same as that story, he went over and over that I'd taken his picture and he didn't want me to and yet I couldn't even tell him out of the crowd. Developed my film, his face wasn't in there.

[Navy Moose]

Neil,

It is experiences like the one you had because you were taking photos near a school, which make me hesitate to take photos of events with children. Last year I photographed the Dragon Boat Race and I was taking photos of some kids rehearsing before going on stage. They were hamming it up and having fun. A number of people were taking their photos. A police officer asked what I was up to, I told him I'm doing the same thing everyone is doing.

It is disheartening at how photographers are treated if there are kids nearby. Someone with a large format camera is not the right person to question, the pervs are using cell phone cameras or P&S cameras.

Navy Moose

[David Luttmann]

Neil,

It is experiences like the one you had because you were taking photos near a school, which make me hesitate to take photos of events with children. Last year I photographed the Dragon Boat Race and I was taking photos of some kids rehearsing before going on stage. They were hamming it up and having fun. A number of people were taking their photos. A police officer asked what I was up to, I told him I'm doing the same thing everyone is doing.

It is disheartening at how photographers are treated if there are kids nearby. Someone with a large format camera is not the right person to question, the pervs are using cell phone cameras or P&S cameras.

Navy Moose

I always love how they ask that “What are you up to?” Well officer, I’m holding a camera, aiming it at my subject, and pressing the shutter. So Mr Rocket Scientist, you tell me what you think I’m up to!

God, some of these guys are as stupid as a bag of wet hair.

[Brian Vuillemenot]

As extra insurance, in case the guards went to the trouble of getting the film developed, each dummy roll contained 36 exposures of the photographer's ass.

What is this "extra insurance" against? Looking like you've cooperated with the police? I think it's a better idea to take pictures of someone else's ass- that way, they can't identify you by them!

[Navy Moose]

I always love how they ask that “What are you up to?” Well officer, I’m holding a camera, aiming it at my subject, and pressing the shutter. So Mr Rocket Scientist, you tell me what you think I’m up to!

God, some of these guys are as stupid as a bag of wet hair.
Next time I'm going to say something like "Gee, lets see. Big black camera, black tripod, black backpack. I think I'm taking photographs". I hate to be disrespectful towards law enforcement, but some things should be obvious.

[fuegocito]

When a guy with a badge and a gun instructs you to do something, people tend to do it. This is an inherently coercive encounter. You have to be an a-hole like me to stand up to authority.

I agree with Cyrus, it's one thing to know our rights but the problem here is when the authority does not know it or choose to ignore it.

My question is, have anyone actually stood up to authorities(actual police officers and not mall security types) and what ensued. Did any one actually got arrested, film physically taken away, cards erased...or did officers back down...???

I like to think I will stand up to authority when I know I am right, but facing a crowd of angry whoever and a few officers staring you down, I don't know...

Robert

[cyrus]

I agree with Cyrus, it's one thing to know our rights but the problem here is when the authority does not know it or choose to ignore it.

My question is, have anyone actually stood up to authorities(actual police officers and not mall security types) and what ensued. Did any one actually got arrested, film physically taken away, cards erased...or did officers back down...???

I like to think I will stand up to authority when I know I am right, but facing a crowd of angry whoever and a few officers staring you down, I don't know...

Robert

I have and so have others. There was a link posted here not so long ago about a cameraman effectively standing up to a cop in the UK, demanding to know by what law he was expected to stop filming. ENough people do that, and this habit of pointlessly hassling photographers will end.

One fellow who was a security guard had the nuts to ask for my social security number. I asked him to show me his social security number first. He then said I was on "private property" since the building technically owned that sidewalk (the property line extended in front of the building as it often does in NY) and I explained to him that there was still a public easement so I had every right to be there, etc etc. He ended up calling me a dirty name, so I said I was perfectly entitled to photograph everything including him, which I did. I have the photo here and will one day bother to print it.

Cops have been less of a problem for me. Theyre doing a job and tend to know the law and stick to it. I may disagree with the law (in the instances that it requires "permits" for example subject to unconstitutional rules, ie: rules that effectively make it impossible to actually get a permit) but I cant fault the cop for doing his job. However, there are many cases reported in which the cops were way out of hand. the best way to deal with that is to know your rights, and politely stick the them in a nonconfrontational manner, but in the end in the US you have the right to ask for a badge number and name -- in fact you can see the cop's badge number - and then you file a complaint noting carefully the time, date, location, and the cop's badge number. I have a case pending.

Mobs are something else. I wouldn't mess with a mob much since by definition they're not rational. I'd give them a good piece of my mind and then walk away.

[cyrus]

I always love how they ask that “What are you up to?” Well officer, I’m holding a camera, aiming it at my subject, and pressing the shutter. So Mr Rocket Scientist, you tell me what you think I’m up to!

God, some of these guys are as stupid as a bag of wet hair.

There's a legal thing in that question - they're trying to get you to incriminate yourself if you're doing something "bad". Similarly, when they pull you over for speeding, they'll say "Do you know how fast you were going?" You're under no obligation to respond in the US. The rights answer is "Here's my driver's license; I'll let the judge decide how fast I was going."

In the photography case, the right answer is to ask another question: "I was exercising my legal, First Amendment Constitutional Right to take photographs, why do you ask?"

[lenser]

My situation wasn't quite the same as the 'found' events that are being described here, but the officer I was faced with was politely confrontational and very thorough about making sure I was legit.

I was on assignment, shooting an apartment complex for the architect. The photos included a view of the playground area and of course there were a few kids around while I got set up. They all seemed to disappear before I got to that one shot, so I thought 'No problems' I'll get the shot and finish the rest and no hassles with having to ask kids to leave the area while I made the image'.

About that time, here comes a deputy sheriff with lights blazing and a less than friendly but still professional attitude.

One of the moms had called the constabulary instead of talking with me or the apartment manager to see what was going on. (I guess I looked like the real pervert with a 4x5 view camera and super wide lens, bag, holders, dark cloth and hiding in plain sight in the middle of the parking lot...you know, all that covert stuff!)

Short story is, I had not only prepared with the manager, I also had insisted on a request letter from the architect (on his letterhead) with a specific shot list of what I had to capture and when I would be on site which also identified me as the photographer.

Deputy took a ten second look at that letter, got me involved in a very friendly conversation about photography and wished me the finest of days and good luck on the project, then left after offering me a really warm handshake and apology for the trouble.

I was in a situation where I could prepare like that and this was a really great guy with no agenda, just doing his job well. So, I was lucky that way.

Point being,...when you can prepare, do so and be friendly until the other guy proves he's a jerk.

The second part of that advice still stands even in a candid situation where you are just shooting for yourself. But, Cyrus is right. They are trained to try to get you to incriminate yourself, so stay cool and talk it out and take notes like crazy.

[Jim Ewins]

The Mall guard stated that the mall is private property and this mall didn't want me taking pictures of people there. I respect private property so....To bad, there is a wealth of funny looking folks there. Jim