Newbie question on light meters

[Jack Polise]

I just made the leap into LF with a purchase of an 8X10 Calumet (along with a 4X5 back). Having never used a hand held light meter and assuming I will attempt to learn and use the Zone System, what type of meter should I be looking for?

In reading Adams' book on the Zone System it seems as if a spot meter is preferred since you could indentify specific areas and assign values to it more readily than an incident or reflective meter.

Or is it a case of needing to have multiple meter types?

Please help.

Thanks,

Jack

[Eric James]

I shoot landscapes on positive film and use a Pentax Digital Spot Meter to evaluate the range of light in a scene. If a scene's highlights and important shadows are more than five stops apart I try to employ a graduated neutral density filter to bring the highlights into to the five-stop range of my film; if the use of a GND filter isn't feasible, I move on, or I wait. Here's a very helpful thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=19634

[Preston]

Jack,

A spot meter measures the light reflected from the scene over a very small angle of view; typically 1 degree, although there are meters that have different angles of view. Another type of relected meter measures the light reflected from the scene in toto, and then averages the various luminance values to give an 'average' exposure. An incident meter measures the light falling (incident) on the scene.

A spot meter will indispensable since you are planning to learn and use the Zone System in order place a value and to see where other values fall on the exposure scale.

There are pros and cons for each type; so, you will have to determine which type of meter best fits your needs. I use a 1-degree Pentax digital spot meter for all my work.

-PB

[cyrus]

Of course there is no real "requirement" for using the Zone system, you understand. A simple incident meter is perfectly fine especially if one is just starting out.

[Jack Polise]

All,

Thanks for the feedback. I will look into either a spot or incident meter or both. It looks like there are plenty of choices on ebay.

Cyrus, I realize that using the Zone System is not a necessity but since I'm an engineering 'geek' in my real job, this looks like something that I would enjoy learning and putting into practice. In fact, I'm wondering what percentage of the hobbyists on this forum do use it.

For me, this is just the start of hopefully a long journey into LF. I have many questions on other topics which I'll be following on other threads.

Jack

[Ron Marshall]

If you intend to use the zone system then a spot meter is best. The Pentax digital spotmeter is excellent.

For used try the Azo Forum, KEH, Midwest Photo, APUG.

[tmastran]

Jack,

You didn't say what your subjects will be, but for outdoor photography with negative films, I would also suggest the sunny 16 rule since you are just starting out. You can Google it to find out the details, but basically its says that f16 at the film speed is a good starting point in full sunlight. Adjust up or down depending upon conditions. Modern negative film has a lot of latitude. You may be wrong in the beginning, but after a while I think you'll appreciate the confidence in relying on your own judgment. Try it and then consult your meter to compare.

I use an old Gossen incident meter that I frequently "override" depending upon what I'm trying to achieve.

Good luck! Post some of your results.

Ted

[cyrus]

I realize that using the Zone System is not a necessity but since I'm an engineering 'geek' in my real job, this looks like something that I would enjoy learning and putting into practice.

Well in that case you're going to luv the Zone System because you're going to do a lot more measuring and testing than photography! :p

I don't know what percentage practice it -- one problem is defining exactly what constitutes the Zone System.

I think everyone pretty much does the old "expose for shadows" part but Im pretty sure far fewer really do the full "develop for highlights" part (except perhaps for following a very rough "add/subtract 10 percent for more/less contrast" rule of thumb) and even fewer have fully test and calibrated everything, and only a minority consistently stick to that.

In fact, I am curious to know whether anyone has actually tested to see if the fully implemented Zone system results in consistent outcomes. While ZS does attempt to control certain variables, there are potentially many other unaccounted-for or unknown variables that the ZS does not deal with which could hypothetically have an effect. Is the water quality from the tap today the same as yesterday, and will that make a difference?

In BW photography, film has such an exposure latitude that you can get away with two stops over/under exposure and make up for it with some dodging/burning and contrast filter use. I also have too many lens/camera/film combinations. That's why I gave up on ZS and my densitometer just sits there, looking at me ruefully.

[Brian Ellis]

The zone system is very simple and is IMHO the best system to use if you want to do anything other than make a "correct" exposure (i.e. an exposure that accurately reflects the values in the scene). The real value of the zone system IMHO isn't just in making a "correct" exposure, it's in allowing you to be creative in interpreting a scene. Just remember that as John Sexton says, it's the "zone" system, not the pinpoint system, so it's best not to get too compulsive and start worrying about things like whether your water supply is the same today as it was yesterday. The zone system isn't designed to produce perfection, it's just a means to help you make the print you want to make as easily as possible.

You can save testing time and trouble by using the services of The View Camera Store instead of doing the testing yourself. While the testing generally only has to be done once for each film you use it does take some time and can use up a lot of film. The View Camera Store requires that you develop only six sheets of film and charges about $35. They'll also provide you with far more information than you're likely to get on your own.

Of course you could just wing it as someone mentioned, relying on the latitude of the film to make up for your errors. But apart from anything else, that's a very difficult way to work. Even when you get a printable negative you can end up spending a whole lot more time in the darkroom than if you got the negative right in the first place. Darkroom work is much more fun when you can easily make a decent print and can spend most of your time making refinements that change it from decent to great (as opposed to struggling with a bad negative trying to make something decent out of it). All just my opinion of course.

[steve simmons]

Since you are new to large format may I suggest some reading

any/all of the articles in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

one or more of the following books

Jack Dykinga's Large Format Nature Photography
Jim Stone's User's Guide to the View Camera
my book Using the View Camera

check your local library
FWIW I am a fan of a spot meter. I measure the darkest and lightest areas where I want to hold on to some feeeling of material and texture and work my exposure and development accordingly.


good luck

steve simmons

[kev curry]

The most basic and valuable thing that I have learned in photography so far was how to employ the use of a 1 degree Spot Meter with the Zone System. I'm relatively new to LF and don't have any experience with other methods of exposing and developing negatives, but without it I think I might have simple become overly frustrated with failure and probably then have given up altogether........ with a Spot Meter and the ZS, exposure becomes consistent and entirely predictable. I've made plenty of mediocre photographs but its seldom the exposure/development thats the problem.

kev

[christopher walrath]

A thorough understanding of the Zone System can make simple metering more significant. For a couple of years I used only an old GE MASCOT light meter and a lot of guesswork. Lately I have been using a Weston Master IV in lieu of a spot (prob next year). As long as you know how to use the Zone System and any light meter you have handy, there is no real need to upgrade unless you have a preference or dinero burning a hole in your pocket. In my humble opinion.

[vann webb]

You don't actually "have" to have a dedicated spot meter. (I use the Gossen UltraSpot, but there are plenty of others that will do the job fine.) I bought one because it's convenient and lighter than my 35mm Canon EOS body with a telephoto attached. But of course, I wound up carrying a 35mm body with a lens attached as well as all the other crap anyway when I'm out photographing. (Not every shot is LF worthy or appropriate.) You do want to pick one meter and stick with it, IMO though, rather than flopping around. I would encourage doing the work to test your materials and determine your exposure index, development times, etc. It's a PITA and I put it off forever, because I'd rather be out shooting or printing than testing on my limited time. However, testing gets you the kind of results that save you boatloads of time and missed opportunities later. Also, film is damn expensive now. I wish I had been more disciplined when I started. Good luck. LF is not for the impatient.

[Bill_1856]

Most better digital cameras have a spotmeter setting, which you can use just as well as a $500 Pentax digital meter. (You do have a digital camera hidden in your kit somewhere don't you?)

[seawolf66]

I agree With Wilhelm: DSLR is a good spot meter , I have used a dslr when I have forgotten my light Meter home:

[David_Senesac]

One degree meters like the Pentax are of course rather expensive because they have always targeted commercial photographers with deep pockets. For some camera work, especially commercial it may be necessary. However for typical outdoor work one does not need anything close to one degree for most situations. In fact 90% of the time for landscapes, I just use the incident meter.

The Shepherd Polaris Dual 5 Digital Flash Meter with 5 Degree Spot Meter Attachment is smaller, lighter, and cheaper at $300. It doesn't have all the shutter speed and aperture inputs so one needs to learn how to use the EV mode against an ASA/shutter speed/aperture chart. And my own opinion is learning EV scales is a more intuitive way to understand what one is doing.

http://www.adorama.com/SBP5.html

[Jack Polise]

Thanks to all for the great feedback.

Since I'm currently trying to progress through these initial stages of LF 'on the cheap' and considering starting out using the ZS might be somewhat optimistic, maybe I should for now just settle on getting a decent incident meter off of ebay and work on getting images on film. I'm probably trying to take on too much rather than just working on the basics like setting up and getting used to the camera movements, etc.

Plus I don't have my own darkroom yet so it's not like I can take advantage of all the techniques offered by the ZS.

If I go for the used light meter I'll have to make sure I get the instruction manual as I might be clueless without it.

Jack

[Christopher Breitenstein]

If you are planning on working in the field, which it seems that you are, a spot meter is the ticket. I would encourage you to pick up a light meter that has an EV setting. It allows you to stops represented as sequential numbers (1,2,3 etc. up through about 20); therefore a stop is represented by a whole number, rather then aperture or shutter speed numbers (of course it gives you these as well).

Here is a practical example. metering a scene you see that the shadows are reading at EV 12 and the highlights are reading at EV 18. A six stop difference. you then may decide that exposing at EV 12.5 or 13 is going to best execute your vision. continue to meter the scene until you find the EV that you decided on, switch out of EV mode and you have the correct exposure reading for f/ and shutter speed. This reduces the risk of mental error, and increases accuracy.

I have always found this much easier, and straight forward, trying to remember how many stops are between 5.6 and 64. When I go out to make photographs, I want to make photographs, not count on my fingers (5.6, 7, 11, 16, 22, 32, 64) and do calculations!

Avoid using preprogrammed High value/ low value settings. They are always off.

I use a Minolta Spotmeter F that I picked up on Ebay about three years ago. Its a 1 degree meter, with diopter adjustment. It is more accurate then I can expose (to within a 1/10) of a stop. It has nearly a 24 stop range! And the readings change very little (about 1/4 of a stop) between a full and empty battery (it takes 1 AA, which lasts forever). My only gripe is that its plastic, and dosnt have a built in timer (which none do).

Hope I was of some help!

Yours:

[cyrus]

If I go for the used light meter I'll have to make sure I get the instruction manual as I might be clueless without it.

Jack

Nah, not much to it. Point-and-press button. Results shown on display.

[Oren Grad]

I have a Pentax digital spot meter but I hardly ever use it - I'm much happier with my Sekonic incident meter. I treat sheet film the same way I do roll film - take a simple shaded reading to expose for the shadows, then develop conservatively, at a standard time, for a long-scale, full-information negative.

Learning sensitometry will certainly improve your craft. For that, I highly recommend Phil Davis' excellent "Beyond the Zone System" materials.

But in my routine snapshooting, I don't find any value in taking spot readings or customizing exposure and development on a sheet-by-sheet basis for different scene brightness ranges. A simpler approach works fine, and is less hassle in the field.

My incident meter is a Sekonic L-308 - very lightweight, small enough to stuff into my pocket, and mine has stood up nicely to years of abuse. It works as a flash meter too, which is handy for my occasional studio experiments. The latest version - L-308S - is still available new for less than $200.

[Andrew O'Neill]

you're going to do a lot more measuring and testing than photography!

...at first, at least until you have mastered it.