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guym-p
7-Jun-2008, 02:28
I have used a Sinar P2 for years. Recently, I had a job where I could not get a car to the site (or hire a team of sherpas) and had to hike. I bought a Sinar Norma as a light-weight, man-portable, alternative.

What a beautiful thing the Norma is! The P2 is a wonderful tool once it's in position, and a doddle to set up, but I can see myself using the Norma more frequently.

I have a question for experienced Norma photographers. In their zero-detent positions, the standards are not parallel, nor are they perpendicular to the rail. It's not a major issue in use, because all the movements are smooth and tight, and I used a small level to get everything true before shooting, but it would be nice to get it right.

Are Sinar Norma tilt detents adjustable?

Yours,
Guy Montagu-Pollock.

Frank Petronio
7-Jun-2008, 05:37
Yes but I don't know how and my repair person told me that most amateurs will strip the threads if they are not careful. So be careful and use the right tools!

snuck
7-Jun-2008, 06:27
given that I'm a recent convert... what's the most common way that threads get stripped?...

Cheers

guym-p
7-Jun-2008, 08:59
The screws are aluminium going into aluminium, so it's incredibly easy to over-tighten them. They can only handle a fraction of the torque of a steel bolt into steel, so don't give a huge twist where a small nip will do.

It's common with aluminium to use thread adhesive (eg Loctite) to prevent screws working loose. Sinar use clear lacquer. With time, it becomes so hard that you risk damaging the thread while removing the screw, not just tightening it up. If that happens, you need to clean the thread thoroughly, and be doubly careful not to over-tighten them during re-assembly.

I am fortunate that before I became a photographer I was in engineering, so, to a certain extent, I know what to expect, and I had the right sized-tools. The Norma I bought needed cleaning. The grease had grit in it like grinding paste, and I could feel it, so the job was pretty urgent. Now it's clean, tight and works smoothly, so it was worth doing. If it had worked smoothly at the outset, I would have left it alone.

In the same way, I don't want to attack the screws near the tilt-detent ball-and-spring if there's no benefit. If someone's successfully adjusted them before, I'd be grateful to know.

Guy.

guym-p
7-Jun-2008, 11:16
Solved!

I should have had a bit more courage at the outset.

At the foot of each riser are three screws. One black, parallel to the tilt axis, and two polished ones. The black one is in fact the ball assembly - a rubber rod with a ball bearing on the end, and a slot for a screwdriver at the other. The ball assembly is not threaded, it's pinched tight by the two polished screws (shown below). These screws were incredibly tight on my Norma.

http://www.montagu-pollock.co.uk/images/_GP34046.jpg

The ball is mounted off-axis, making the ball assembly a cam. Slackening and twisting the assembly moves the ball very slightly, which adjusts the detent position.

http://www.montagu-pollock.co.uk/images/_GP34056.jpg

There is also a good deal of tolerance on the riser flanges, which are held by two button-headed allen-key screws, so I found the best procedure was to make a coarse adjustment on the flange, followed by fine adjustment with the ball/cam.

I'm delighted to say both standards are now true, and all bubbles are accurate.

Guy.

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jun-2008, 14:15
Invaluable Norma Information.
Many Thanks!
-Dan

NormaN
31-Aug-2020, 15:46
Hello everybody
I am new on this Forum and found this old thread.
I also own since a few days a Sinar norma and found the same adjusting problems described,
I think I dont have the courage to service it myself...
The described pictures ar not visibke anymor. Does anybody had similar expiriences with the Norma?
Thank your for any help!
Sorry for my bad english
NormaN

Jimi
2-Sep-2020, 00:07
Hello everybody
I am new on this Forum and found this old thread.
I also own since a few days a Sinar norma and found the same adjusting problems described,
I think I dont have the courage to service it myself...


Welcome NormaN,

Here is a guide to taking care of a Sinar Norma -> https://tlrgraphy.com/2012/09/24/the-sinar-norma-cla-guide/

Have a look, and see if it is anything you feel confident doing. If not, you can always send it off to someone who can make the adjustments. In that case, it will be easier if we know in what part of the world you are living in.

Quite a few of the Normas are at least fifty years old, and some of them haven't been cleaned up in years. It is worth taking care of, it may be a camera for life.

NormaN
3-Sep-2020, 05:29
Welcome NormaN,

Here is a guide to taking care of a Sinar Norma -> https://tlrgraphy.com/2012/09/24/the-sinar-norma-cla-guide/

Have a look, and see if it is anything you feel confident doing. If not, you can always send it off to someone who can make the adjustments. In that case, it will be easier if we know in what part of the world you are living in.

Quite a few of the Normas are at least fifty years old, and some of them haven't been cleaned up in years. It is worth taking care of, it may be a camera for life.




Many thanks for the answer Jimi!

I found the given link "The Sinar Norma CLA Guide" and was able to download the PDF and the film. A very good guide! I'll try to make the CLA myself. Still have to buy the various utensils. I have the most respect for stuck screws.

If it goes wrong, an address from a professional would be helpful. I live in Zurich, Switzerland.
I grew up in Schaffhausen, the birthplace of the Sinar Norma ....

When I bought the Norma, there was another back in addition to the matching front and back (stamps on both underside of the Shift Bar M64). It is an earlier variant (see picture on the left). I have a question about this: I assume that the "International back" is mounted on the right side. Which back is on the left?

Regards207383

Jimi
3-Sep-2020, 14:05
Many thanks for the answer Jimi!

I found the given link "The Sinar Norma CLA Guide" and was able to download the PDF and the film. A very good guide! I'll try to make the CLA myself. Still have to buy the various utensils. I have the most respect for stuck screws.

If it goes wrong, an address from a professional would be helpful. I live in Zurich, Switzerland.
I grew up in Schaffhausen, the birthplace of the Sinar Norma ....

When I bought the Norma, there was another back in addition to the matching front and back (stamps on both underside of the Shift Bar M64). It is an earlier variant (see picture on the left). I have a question about this: I assume that the "International back" is mounted on the right side. Which back is on the left?

Regards

I can't stress enough the need for some decent tools, as described in the CLA material. The gib screws were the hardest to get out - on my camera they needed acetone (nail polish remover) several times, and then I could back them out, slowly. In your specific case, I think you may need to be careful to not get any acetone on the plastic (Delrin possibly) pinion (Zahnrad) of the rail.

It seems to me there was ongoing improvements and changes to the Norma - mine has the same focus locks as yours, but uses metai pinions. Later on Sinar did away with the focus locks. Mine is earlier (M61/62) and is comparatively in good condition (everything is still there and working). I have never seen the rear standard on the left (right one is the international back), perhaps a special order?

I am in the middle of my own process, but a few thoughts along the way:

In addition to good tools and lubricants, you need patience and the ability to think first and then act. :) Be careful with applying too much force to anything. It can be time-consuming to clean the parts, and then adjusting them back, so that they work smoothly. This part "how it should feel like" is partly a personal preference, but it is also hard to really know, never having touched a Norma that is correctly adjusted. Be prepared to spend a good bit of time fiddling until it is done.

My experience is that it is easy to overdo the grease - thin emulsion of grease is the key. Otherwise you may have to clean up things (which is less effective once things are put together). Put the clean parts in containers, in one place, so that you don't have to spend time looking for things. ;) Unless you have a lot of available spare time, it may be more relaxed to do a bit of work at a time over several days. It's easy to get stuck for an extra hour, trying to fit and adjust the pieces, at least when one is doing it for the first time.

The final adjustments (square, level and parallel) will be the ultimate patience test, I think ... not there yet.

As for the professionals, there should be someone in Paris that was recommended to me (I have to look that up) and I have someone who may be willing to do work in Munich. PM me if you want go that route instead.

Apart from that - good luck with the adventure, if you feel like trying. And ask all the questions you may need to - there is a bunch of very knowledgable people around here. I don't claim to be an expert - I am just a medium-sized frog with a screwdriver. :)

Greg
3-Sep-2020, 16:19
Have owned several 4x5 Normas over the years. Each one differed by just a little when taken apart, obviously improvements were incorporated over the span of the camera. Whenever I worked on one. I would do it inside a 20x24 inch processing tray. Also had some 8x10 sheets of cardboard that were coated with several strips of double stick tape. It was easy to keep the parts in order of disassembly and write down notes next to the parts. The worst looking Norma I ever acquired was one that was in a Studio fire. Acquired it for very little money because it looked to be totally destroyed. Amazingly after cleaning up the large amount of smoke damage, everything on the camera worked just fine. On the other hand once acquired a front standard that looked to be in almost mint condition. When I finally got around to closely looking at it months later, I discovered that someone had tried to fix it and it was really only good for parts.

NormaN
4-Sep-2020, 02:50
I can't stress enough the need for some decent tools, as described in the CLA material. The gib screws were the hardest to get out - on my camera they needed acetone (nail polish remover) several times, and then I could back them out, slowly. In your specific case, I think you may need to be careful to not get any acetone on the plastic (Delrin possibly) pinion (Zahnrad) of the rail.

It seems to me there was ongoing improvements and changes to the Norma - mine has the same focus locks as yours, but uses metai pinions. Later on Sinar did away with the focus locks. Mine is earlier (M61/62) and is comparatively in good condition (everything is still there and working). I have never seen the rear standard on the left (right one is the international back), perhaps a special order?

I am in the middle of my own process, but a few thoughts along the way:

In addition to good tools and lubricants, you need patience and the ability to think first and then act. :) Be careful with applying too much force to anything. It can be time-consuming to clean the parts, and then adjusting them back, so that they work smoothly. This part "how it should feel like" is partly a personal preference, but it is also hard to really know, never having touched a Norma that is correctly adjusted. Be prepared to spend a good bit of time fiddling until it is done.

My experience is that it is easy to overdo the grease - thin emulsion of grease is the key. Otherwise you may have to clean up things (which is less effective once things are put together). Put the clean parts in containers, in one place, so that you don't have to spend time looking for things. ;) Unless you have a lot of available spare time, it may be more relaxed to do a bit of work at a time over several days. It's easy to get stuck for an extra hour, trying to fit and adjust the pieces, at least when one is doing it for the first time.

The final adjustments (square, level and parallel) will be the ultimate patience test, I think ... not there yet.

As for the professionals, there should be someone in Paris that was recommended to me (I have to look that up) and I have someone who may be willing to do work in Munich. PM me if you want go that route instead.

Apart from that - good luck with the adventure, if you feel like trying. And ask all the questions you may need to - there is a bunch of very knowledgable people around here. I don't claim to be an expert - I am just a medium-sized frog with a screwdriver. :)

Thank you Jimi for your help!
It will be a while before I have all the tools and materials to start working with the CLA. And above all to find the time and rest (and I haven't taken a single picture yet). These adjusting screws are also a bit rusty on my camera. Very interesting the note regarding the material "Delrin". Regarding the address in Munich, I will send you a PM.
regards
NormaN

NormaN
4-Sep-2020, 03:00
Have owned several 4x5 Normas over the years. Each one differed by just a little when taken apart, obviously improvements were incorporated over the span of the camera. Whenever I worked on one. I would do it inside a 20x24 inch processing tray. Also had some 8x10 sheets of cardboard that were coated with several strips of double stick tape. It was easy to keep the parts in order of disassembly and write down notes next to the parts. The worst looking Norma I ever acquired was one that was in a Studio fire. Acquired it for very little money because it looked to be totally destroyed. Amazingly after cleaning up the large amount of smoke damage, everything on the camera worked just fine. On the other hand once acquired a front standard that looked to be in almost mint condition. When I finally got around to closely looking at it months later, I discovered that someone had tried to fix it and it was really only good for parts.

Hello Greg
Thank you for your valuable advice. A good idea to secure the parts with double-sided adhesive tape and to make notes on the cardboard as well, I will do it 1: 1.
I think it's best to practice the CLA with the reserve back (in the previous post in the photo on the left) ...
regards
NormaN

Jimi
5-Sep-2020, 02:04
Thank you Jimi for your help!
It will be a while before I have all the tools and materials to start working with the CLA. And above all to find the time and rest (and I haven't taken a single picture yet). These adjusting screws are also a bit rusty on my camera. Very interesting the note regarding the material "Delrin". Regarding the address in Munich, I will send you a PM.
regards
NormaN

Perhaps it is a good idea to set the camera up and try to make at least a few test photos, just to see what is working and not. After doing that, it may be easier to tell us which problems you have had, if any. Mine worked fine out of the box so to speak, although it was a bit too stiff.

Testing things out on the extra rear standard is a good idea, since you can switch the groundglass assembly from one standard to the other, when you have a cleaned and adjusted one ready.

Daniel Unkefer
5-Sep-2020, 07:43
The original Norma instruction book here. This is a later vintage copy, 1967. Figure 18 shows the basic lubrication points which are easy to get to and should be renewed every so often. I have not found a need to go completely into my Normas; they all seem to be OK :)

https://www.cameraeccentric.com/static/img/pdfs/sinar_1.pdf





This is the link I use to get to Philip Morgan's instructions regarding CLA on the Norma.

http://doczz.net/doc/2811502/the-rough-guide-to-cleaning--lubricating--and-adjusting-t

Does anyone know how to get to the video? Many Thanks!

Jimi
5-Sep-2020, 08:27
Does anyone know how to get to the video? Many Thanks!

The link above in my earlier post contains links to the video -> https://tlrgraphy.com/2012/09/24/the...rma-cla-guide/

Daniel Unkefer
5-Sep-2020, 08:47
The link above in my earlier post contains links to the video -> https://tlrgraphy.com/2012/09/24/the...rma-cla-guide/

OK. See it now and downloaded. Thank You!

Jerry Bodine
5-Sep-2020, 10:14
Also there is this link to Sinar-specific info (much contribution from European users in English) and section dedicated to Norma:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sinarusers/

This is where I found the info that links to the CLA video:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sinar-large-format-cameras-users/philip-morgans-sinar-norma-cla-guide/978924015631175/

Jimi
7-Sep-2020, 01:20
Thanks Jerry - it is good that the fb group is open without having to log in. That signal-to-noise ratio ... gosh.

Hopefully, once I get my second camera, the "project" Norma into shape, I'll contribute some thoughts in a new thread. Would love to see a guide for the pan/tilt head too, but I am keep off mine for the time being, since it works as intended.

NormaN
8-Sep-2020, 08:27
Hello again

On closer inspection I found that the clamping screws/rods for the front and rear tilting mechanism are not the same length (see photos)
One of these screws is so long (the one in the middle) that the thread cannot be turned far enough. The back part tilts uncontrollably out of the zero position. I changed the screws and saw that the excess length caused the problem.

I could correct that by shortening the screw at the back ...

Isn't it strange that these screws / rods vary so much?
Has anyone experienced something similar?


207587
207586

Jimi
8-Sep-2020, 13:06
If I understand you correctly, I think that you should be able to put shims on the too long one. You should then put the shims closest to the knob, so that the thread does not screw all the way in. I hope that makes sense.

I have to check but I think all four of mine are the same length, for 4x5" and 5x7".

Daniel Unkefer
8-Sep-2020, 13:18
My Normas have two washers/spacers per knob. Some type of plastic I think.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50071147693_fe33fdf635_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jhBHKT)Washer on Norma Tilt Rod (https://flic.kr/p/2jhBHKT) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Actually I'm looking for a source for some replacements; Couldn't find what I want at McMaster Carr.

Anybody have a good source? Also will try Lowes

Jimi
8-Sep-2020, 13:32
Actually I'm looking for a source for some replacements; Couldn't find what I want at McMaster Carr.


I thought about this today too - Microtools perhaps? But I am also looking for thin shims, can't figure out what they might be called in german, have only found thicker stuff.

NormaN
9-Sep-2020, 02:05
My Normas have two washers/spacers per knob. Some type of plastic I think.

Actually I'm looking for a source for some replacements; Couldn't find what I want at McMaster Carr.

Anybody have a good source? Also will try Lowes


Hello
I found this address:

https://de.misumi-ec.com/vona2/mech_screw/M3302000000/M3302020000/

Lots of shims in a wide range of materials.
Unfortunately, I haven't measured the Norma washer yet ...

Jimi
9-Sep-2020, 05:21
Thanks, NormaN - another rabbithole to fall down into ... :)

Jimi
9-Sep-2020, 13:58
I went downstairs and measured the shims. I thought it was only one at first, but it was actually two. The rod itself measures 5 mm in diameter at the ends. The inner diameter of a shim is 7 mm, outer 12 mm and thickness is 0.2 mm, measured with a micrometer. So two shims, 0.4 mm in total, isn't exactly a lot. The shims are made of metal in mine, by the way.

Daniel Unkefer
9-Sep-2020, 15:12
I went downstairs and measured the shims. I thought it was only one at first, but it was actually two. The rod itself measures 5 mm in diameter at the ends. The inner diameter of a shim is 7 mm, outer 12 mm and thickness is 0.2 mm, measured with a micrometer. So two shims, 0.4 mm in total, isn't exactly a lot. The shims are made of metal in mine, by the way.

I found these at McMaster Carr and ordered a box of 25. Inside diameter is 6mm, outside 12mm, .2mm thickness. Stainless Steel we will see if they fit.

When I measure the inside diameter with my Sinar Norma metric ruler, it appears exactly 6mm.

https://www.mcmaster.com/98089A247/

Jimi
10-Sep-2020, 00:22
I measured the diameter with a vernier caliper. I think the outer diameter is of less importance, and my shims anyways fit a bit loose on the rod, so I think you will be fine.

I'll have to check the measurements of the other shims (on the shift and swing) too. I have a few challenges on the project Norma parts, a replacement shoulder screw is needed and a hex screw for one of the monorail sliders have gone missing somewhere in years past. We'll see if I can figure that out.

Jimi
10-Sep-2020, 12:19
I measured the other shims.

The shift has two shims, inner diameter 5 mm, outer 12 mm and thickness is 0.08 mm, so I guess one shim with 0.15 mm thickness could also work. The swing has only one shim, with the same inner/outer diameter, but with 0.15 mm thickness. All of these shims are dependent on how the camera was adjusted. All of them metal. The only shim that I have found that is some sort of plastic is the one on the coarse focus screw.

I also measured the rod shims a second time, and yes, they are also 6 mm on the inside.

Daniel Unkefer
10-Sep-2020, 15:29
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50328513827_3cf6f603ee_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jFmMK2)Norma Washer and McMaster Carr substitutes (https://flic.kr/p/2jFmMK2) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

McMaster Carr is super quick to ship. I ordered these yesterday.

On the left, the darker washer is original Sinar Norma. In the packet are the replacement washers from McMaster Carr.

They are identical when laid one on top of the other.

These are stainless steel washers. Hopefully that is OK