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View Full Version : Chamonix vs. Phillips 4x5



Kirk Gittings
5-Jun-2008, 22:16
I sat down for coffee with fellow New Mexicans and LF junkies Don Boyd and David Braum today, partly to compare David's 4x5 Chamonix and my 4x5 Phillips camera. This is a comparison I had wanted to do for awhile as many have talked about the Chamonix design being derived from the Phillips and indeed it is. My Phillips is not common however, It was custom ordered and then altered by the original owner, Michael Mutmanski. It has the long flexible "Universal Bellows", a Horseman international back and redesigned rear standard brackets (which make it more compact).

The basic structure and design of the two cameras is very similar. The Chamonix is a refinement of the basic Phillips design. It is more compact and a bit lighter (Its hard to say how much, we were sitting at a Starbucks, and most Phillips don't have the heavier Horseman back), whereas the larger Phillips extend further for longer lenses. Both cameras are superbly rigid, even fully racked out-the Phillips is the most rigid folding field cameras I have ever used and the lightest. The Chamonix lacks the focus lock of the Phillips. But David said he didn't find an issue with that in practice, but its lack is a slight concern to me. If you were running over rough terrain to change camera position in changing light, would the focus shift? If you were shooting straight down does the focus sink? As designed by Dick, the focus lock extends above the focus screw and pushes the rear standard design up about 3/4 of an inch-part of why the Chamonix is able to be more compact. The Phillips with the universal bellows handles much longer lenses (I've comfortably used from a 450 [focused much closer than infinity] on the Phillips to even wides like a 120 on a flat board with full movements, wider lenses become more restricted as they get wider and need recessed lens boards), but the bellows is not interchangeable. The Chamonix has interchangeable bellows, a plus for sure, though I understand from David that accessories like bag bellows are not available yet? Set up and function is virtually the same.

You can see my Phillips here with a Nikkor 120SW focused at infinity: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13193&d=1212377729

All in all the Chamonix very well made and beautiful. I had thought before seing one that they were the Volkswagon of field 4x5s, but they are much more than that. David's was stained black (Walnut?) and in that color very much had the black techy look of the Phillips. Owning the Phillips I feel like I own a first generation original of a fine sports car and when you get down to it they are so similar that I wouldn't feel the need to acquire a Chamonix, but if I didn't have the Phillips and was in the market............if only the Chamonix had the long Universal bellows and a focus lock........

Daniel_Buck
5-Jun-2008, 22:22
if only the Chamonix had a Universal bellows......
They do :) Not standard issue, but you can order it. I've just ordered mine, to help out movement with the wide angle a bit more! Don't know if it would do anything better for longer lenses though. I use 90mm on it all the time, I have decent movement, but I'd like a bit more than what the standard bellows can do comfortably.

I've often wondered about the focus lock as well! However, I've never noticed it slip. If I did more macro work where the camera was angled straight down, it might be more of an issue? I'm not sure.

BarryS
5-Jun-2008, 22:26
Thanks for the interesting comparison. I think the recent auction prices for Dick Phillip's cameras reflect the superb design and quality of his cameras. But I also believe that the Chamonix is more than a "knock-off" as some have characterized it. I believe the Universal bellows is available for the 45N-1 and I plan on ordering one, but I don't know the specs.

Tony Flora
5-Jun-2008, 22:27
Hey Kirk,
According to Hugo there is also a bag bellows available.

Tony

Kirk Gittings
5-Jun-2008, 22:37
Thanks for the interesting comparison. I think the recent auction prices for Dick Phillip's cameras reflect the superb design and quality of his cameras. But I also believe that the Chamonix is more than a "knock-off" as some have characterized it.

Barry, Well said. I agree with both observations.

Kirk Keyes
6-Jun-2008, 07:52
Owning the Phillips I feel like I own a first generation original of a fine sports car ...

So the Phillips is like a Porsche 356 and the Chamy is then a 911? Or more like the Phillips is a 911 and the Chamy is a 930?

Don Hutton
6-Jun-2008, 08:18
I am a huge fan of Dick's cameras - I've owned a couple of 11x14s, a couple of 8x10s and a 4x5. Currently, I have a Chamonix 4x5 and an 8x10. I'd agree that the Chamonix has a few small refinements and the Phillips still has a few advantages too. I don't find the focus lock and issue at all - the lead screw on the Chamonix is a little stiffer than on the Phillips probably to account for the lack of an unnecessary lock. Dick changed the design of the lock on the Phillips to a small lever later on - neither deisgn was terribly elegant, but both worked fine. The clip on the older type was prone to breaking after time; and the lever type could be ruined by over tightening too, so neither was perfect. I recently sold my Phillips Compact II and replaced it with a Chamonix 8x10 - functionally, the cameras are almost identical (although I miss the bail back on the Phillips). I sold the Phillips for considerably more than I paid for a like new Chamonix (in fact I bought a like new Fujinon 360 A with the change and was still cash positive) - seemed to be a no brainer to me.

The single feature I like most on the Chamonix is the lead screw thread - one full revolution equates to 12mm (1/2 inch) of movement of the focus bed - this means that to work out near/far focus distance, you can simply observe the movement on the focus wheel while under the darkcloth (mark it up like a clock with bright white paint) - every 5 minutes on the clock corresponds to 1mm... This is considerably more conveneient than ducking out from under the darkcloth to look at a ruler device round the front of the focussing bed for both near and far extension.


Personally, I don't think the design is sportscar like at all - both are sort of highly functional truck designs... An F-line or Misura equates better with a sportscar. FWIW, I don't think that there is a better field camera for under $2000 than the 4x5.

Kirk Gittings
6-Jun-2008, 09:28
Personally, I don't think the design is sportscar like at all - both are sort of highly functional truck designs... An F-line or Misura equates better with a sportscar. FWIW, I don't think that there is a better field camera for under $2000 than the 4x5.

True enough I guess, but when you have only owned Tachiharas, Zone VI's and Calumets, the Phillips seems like the bomb.

Songyun
6-Jun-2008, 10:26
Hey Kirk,
According to Hugo there is also a bag bellows available.

Tony
as far as I know the bag bellow is not ready yet, might come out with the July batch. I have a universal bellow works just fine.

seawolf66
6-Jun-2008, 11:29
Do not all manufactures in one way or another copy their competition's products in some form or another : Did not all The Lens makers do just that , except we will call it this , i.e. Doppel anastigmat, double anastigmats, , list list goes on and on here which is a mout point what needs to looked and and examimed is it the product being made by mfg:[A] equal to or better than mfg[B] ; at the same price or lower:

In todays market we have very few good camera markers left to choose from or we go
to the used market , and here again what will give me the most return on my money I about to invest in this camera and system , because the list has just began when You enter the Large format arena to play in :

As for Universal bellows , which is great for us but not mfg"s , well now their bellows fits mine and theirs fit mine : Well they are looking to make the most greens they can, Otherwise we would have had a Universal for everything made, Boy could we have saved money there:

So at the Present time who is make-ing the best for the least cost and give-ing us the greatest return for the money:

With Wooden Field cameras the list is very short when you leave out used cameras

So Its Chamouix and who ever else there is, the people in hungary and Lotus also Horseman [not sure of this mfg] Shen Hao:

and yes there metal 4x5 field camera like Toyo-View which is a composit camera

Michael Rosenberg
6-Jun-2008, 11:34
Kirk,

I have had my Chamonix for 6 months now, and the focus lock would be a good addition. There is a hex-head set screw that adjusts the tension of the focus screw, and you can vary this; but at the end of my last trip it had become loose, and I had one picture out of focus (I checked that one time to confirm where my edges and corners were on the gg). I now carry a wrench. But some way of locking the focus would be nice.

I have found no need for a bag belows. I can focus a 47 XL with the standard bellows, and I have enough room for movements of a 90 mm for me to do any architectural pictures. My 47, 58 and 75 mm lenses don't have enough coverage to really benefit from the additional movement a bag bellows would allow.

I have a Maxwell screen on my Linhof, and the fresnel/screen on the Chamonix is as bright, and as good.

My only complaint is that the levels on the rear standard are not square to the frame.

It is a very very nice camera.

Mike

Daniel_Buck
6-Jun-2008, 15:02
Mike, yea I carry a small wrench with me as well, one time the back tabs (that lock the back to 90 degrees) came to loose, so I picked up a small hex/allan wrench and keep it with me just in case now. As well as a small phillips screwdriver, since I see some phillips screws on there. Just in case! :-D

Songyun
6-Jun-2008, 16:49
Mike, yea I carry a small wrench with me as well, one time the back tabs (that lock the back to 90 degrees) came to loose, so I picked up a small hex/allan wrench and keep it with me just in case now. As well as a small phillips screwdriver, since I see some phillips screws on there. Just in case! :-D
Daniel, do you remember what is the size for the hex wrench? It seems there are metric system and standard system, I am trying to figure out what is the right size.

Clyde Rogers
6-Jun-2008, 20:19
I also have a Phillips 4x5 (also "hot-rodded" like Kirk's). For folks who want it, this modification is no longer needed for new cameras---Dick's current design incorporates the lowered rear standard, giving the camera about two inches of direct front rise without tilting and making it fold a little more compactly. I get full rise and fall (fall is also about 2 inches) even with a 110 SSXL---the bellows is the same flexible material as the Canham DLC. The lever focus lock works beautifully, in my opinion. My camera weighs about 3.8 pounds (it has the lighter very nice non-graflock back), and has 18 inches of extension (it works quite well with a Fuji 450). It also moves 1/2 inch per lead screw turn. It is the strongest field camera I've ever used.

Dick is doing one more run of the 4x5 late this year, before he retires. Get one while you can, a beautiful, classic camera, built and sold by a true innovator and gentleman.

Later,

Clyde Rogers

Daniel_Buck
6-Jun-2008, 22:25
Daniel, do you remember what is the size for the hex wrench? It seems there are metric system and standard system, I am trying to figure out what is the right size.

hm... I want to say 1.5mm? I can't remember exactly, I just went to the hardware store and tried some of the smaller ones until I found it. I don't think any of the standard system wrenches fit, I'm pretty sure it was a metric, and not a whole number.

seawolf66
8-Jun-2008, 04:27
If you go to a place like Homedepot you can find Hex wrench set together one is metric the other is regular: very short money then your set: