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View Full Version : First Timer with the BTZS Tubes. Need Help!



Tony Flora
23-May-2008, 21:45
I was thinking I might be able to use the tempered bath that I used for the tubes during development as the stop bath also. When the tube is done in the developer, I would unscrew the tubes and plunge the tubes back into same tub and spin them all until they are all done developing and soaking in the stop bath. The tempered bath would have the Ilostop mixed in prior to developing. Does anyone see a problem with this idea? I have not used the tubes yet so any advice would be appreciated. The other question I have is how are you fixing and washing. I don't have tanks or hangers for a separate stop bath, fix and wash. I am not fond of the idea of using trays because part of the reason I chose the BTZS tubes over tray processing was because I perceived that there was less risk of scratching the negatives with the BTZS tubes. I also have limited space in my second bathroom where I will do my processing. Are there other preferred methods for fixing? Then there is the wash. How can I minimize the risk of scratching, what's the best way to do this, tank & hangers, tray, or ?????

Thanks.
Tony

Brian Ellis
23-May-2008, 23:17
I used BTZS tubes for many years, it's a great system. I guess you could use stop bath instead of water in the tempering tray, it sounds kind of odd but I can't offhand think why it wouldn't work. There's the risk of some stop getting in the tube I guess but if the tubes leak then you'd have other problems anyhow and the tubes shouldn't leak. So as long as you can maintain the temperature of the stop bath, why not?

With respect to fix, I used six separate 5x7 trays, one sheet of film per tray of fix. That way I didn't have to worry about scratching. But I gather you might not have room for six 5x7 trays. If not then I don't know what the next best method would be, perhaps someone else can help you on this one.

I think the best wash system is a dedicated sheet film washer. I used a Salt Hill washer that had 15 separate slots, one slot per sheet. Salt Hill has been out of business for quite a while but there are other similar washers out there. One that I used in a workshop was made by Gravity Works. Others here probably know of other brands.

Bjorn Nilsson
23-May-2008, 23:23
In "theory" it sounds good to use the temp.bath for stop. But if there is even the slightest possibility of a leak, you will get very funny results. (I.e. if a slight amount of stop bath mixes with the developer in a tube, the developer will not be as effective as it should be.)
But if you measure up the acetic acid and add it to the temp bath when it's time to use it, the risks are eliminated. Else, skip the acetic acid altogether and just use water. Many of us do that and it works fine.
You will be fixing and washing with the light on, so that you can see what you are doing, hence the risk of scratches are much reduced. And also, you have to take the sheets out of the tubes anyhow, to fix away the anti-halation layer on the back of the film.

My own way of dealing with these problems? ... Jobo Expert drums...

//Björn

kev curry
23-May-2008, 23:56
You might find this interesting, it doesn't directly address your question but this is how Fred Newman does it....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KGv_SqbzU

D. Bryant
24-May-2008, 06:25
I was thinking I might be able to use the tempered bath that I used for the tubes during development as the stop bath also. When the tube is done in the developer, I would unscrew the tubes and plunge the tubes back into same tub and spin them all until they are all done developing and soaking in the stop bath. The tempered bath would have the Ilostop mixed in prior to developing. Does anyone see a problem with this idea? I have not used the tubes yet so any advice would be appreciated. The other question I have is how are you fixing and washing. I don't have tanks or hangers for a separate stop bath, fix and wash. I am not fond of the idea of using trays because part of the reason I chose the BTZS tubes over tray processing was because I perceived that there was less risk of scratching the negatives with the BTZS tubes. I also have limited space in my second bathroom where I will do my processing. Are there other preferred methods for fixing? Then there is the wash. How can I minimize the risk of scratching, what's the best way to do this, tank & hangers, tray, or ?????

Thanks.
Tony

You can use a small 2 gal. plastic paint bucket to drop the tubes into the stop. After you have all of the tubes in the stop you can remove the tube and remove each sheet of film and place them into a small tray of fixer. Don't use water for stop.

Once you are through processing film you can put the top on the bucket of stop and store it for later use. Watch Fred's video. BTZS processing isn't difficult but takes some getting use to.

Don

Donald Miller
24-May-2008, 07:45
In the system that I came up with using BTZS type tubes, I use a tempering water bath in a plastic container I bought at Lowes. I use this tempering water as the presoak for the film with an end off the tube (lights obviously off). Then I pour the water out after five minutes and pour the developer that I have prepared in a couple of beakers before hand, afix the closure of the tube and then turn on the lights and agitate or semistand as the case might be. After the development period has passed, I pour the developer from the tube and use the same tempered water as the stop for the film. (many do not use an acid stop bath on film any longer--it is not necessary as long as you are consistant in the time the film is in the water) Following that the fix is poured into the tubes, the tubes closed and agitated in the tempered bath for the time that I fix.

The small amount of developer "contamination" in the stop portion of the processing cycle has no descernable effect and the antihalation coloration of the water is of the same impact.

The developer is discarded into a waste bucket and the fix is reused.

I have used this system for four years with great results. I have found that the film damage potential is greatly reduced over the tray processing I did for twenty years prior to using BTZS tubes.

Tony Flora
24-May-2008, 08:13
I placed a sheet of tissue paper in each of the tubes and then simulated development for about 10 minutes. One of tubes did leak but when I retested it and tightened the cap with a little extra effort everything was fine. The rubber washer apparently has very little effect because the bath water was in all of the grooves in all of the tubes. I might see if my local hardware store has some that are a little thicker. Brian, I think I will try your small tray method. The first couple of weeks I will only be processing one sheet at a time so I should be okay with space for 1 tray of fix and 1 tray for wash. That should get me started. I will look into the tanks and hangers for multiple sheet processing like Fred demonstrates in the video. I don't like the idea of the extra handling of the negatives but I guess I am limited with my options. Thank you all for the help.

Tony Flora
24-May-2008, 08:22
Donald,
So you fix directly in the tubes? I thought of that, but I figured that the anti-halation coating would not be removed unless the film was removed from the tube. You never have an issue with that?

Tony

Donald Miller
24-May-2008, 08:54
Donald,
So you fix directly in the tubes? I thought of that, but I figured that the anti-halation coating would not be removed unless the film was removed from the tube. You never have an issue with that?

Tony


Tony, The antihalation layer is removed in the presoak...not in the fix.

I initially had concerns about removing the AH layer because I thought that there was inadequate opportunity for the presoak water to reach the film back and consequently used fiberglass screen material between the film back and the tube wall for a time...but I discontinued that and now simply slide the film back and forth several times in the tube during the presoak...no problems.

Good luck
Don

sanking
24-May-2008, 10:42
The pre-soak may get rid of the anti-halation backing with some films, but if you are using T-MAX films you should remove the film from the tubes and fix in a tray or tank to get rid of the magenta color. You will also need to double your fixing time, as Fred indicates in the video, or following fixing with a 1% sodium sulfite bath.

Sandy King

Tony Flora
24-May-2008, 15:50
I am using Delta 100 and Ilford does not recommend a pre-soak. My plan is to develop exactly as Ilford suggests to establish a basis for future comparison. Sandy, I will be fixing in a tray using the method that Brian suggested of fixing in separate trays for each sheet of film.

My processing will be as follows:

Develop Ilford DD-x in BTZS Tubes for 10 minutes 20 seconds (1 +4)
Aggressive agitation for first 10 seconds
constant agitation in tempered bath
Rinse in Ilfostop for 20 seconds (1 +19)
Fix in Ilford Rapid Fixer 10 minutes (1 +4)
wash under running water for 10 minutes
final rinse in Ilford Ilfotol (1 +200)

I have chosen to go with all Ilford products to establish a basis for future comparison. I have decreased the developing time by 15% according to Ilford guidelines for constant agitation.

What am I missing, aside from the properly exposed negative?

Tony

Tony Flora
24-May-2008, 19:56
Well that was interesting. Everything seemed to go okay but it looks like I may have put the film in the tube backwards.
Does this look like a case of inserting the film emulsion facing the wall? The spots don't make sense to me?

Tony Flora
24-May-2008, 20:06
Okay just went to the Ilford site to double check the notches and I think I may have load the film backwards in the film holder. Is it even possible to record an image with the film installed backwards?

Bjorn Nilsson
25-May-2008, 00:42
The example that you show was probably inserted backwards in the tube. But the parts that are developed seem to have been exposed properly. I.e. you've loaded them correctly in the film holder.
There are pictures and videos of how to locate the notches and how to load the sheet film properly. I guess that you've seen them.
In short though, when you hold the sheet of film in front of you and your right index finger is at the top right corner feeling the notches, then you have the emulsion towards you. From there you can slide the film down into the film hoder, or close your hand to curl it up to put into the BTZS tube.
Check the pictures and videos that you googled and then use that ruined piece of film to do some dry runs until you have it 200%.

//Björn

Brian Ellis
25-May-2008, 08:10
Okay just went to the Ilford site to double check the notches and I think I may have load the film backwards in the film holder. Is it even possible to record an image with the film installed backwards?

Yes, especially with a relatively long exposure in bright light you'll get an image of some sort on the film.

With respect to the "one-tray-per-sheet" method for fixing, the main reason I used that method wasn't the risk of scratching, it was to be able to keep track of which sheet was which so that my exposure notes would be meaningful. If you dump all 6 negatives in a single tray of fix it can be difficult, often impossible, to know which is which without notching and coding your film holders. I numbered the tubes from 1 to 6 and numbered each 5x7 tray from 1 to 6 and put the appropriate sheet of film in the appropriate tray.