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View Full Version : So, IS black & white photography on its way out?



Erik Asgeirsson
15-Jan-2001, 12:44
This was recently posted on the rec.photo.darkroom newsgroup. It met with very e nthusiastic response there, so with the author's permission, I would like to rep ost it to the forum here.

From what I've read here recently, it seems that a lot of photographic companies have drastically reduced their commitment to black & white products. Most photo graphy is done in color, and black & white has survived mainly as an art medium. It looks like black & white photography as it exists right now might disappear altogether as companies decide that it is no longer cost-efficient to produce pr oducts for black & white photographers.

I would like to start a discussion about this topic to find out what other peopl e's take on this issue is. Do you think that black & white photography is going to disappear? If so, why, and if not, why not? If it does disappear, what will b e the alternatives for people who still want to shoot in black & white?

-- Scott Daniel Ullman

sdullman@i_hate_spam.stanford.ude

(Remove "i_hate_spam" and change "ude" to "edu" to send e-mail.)

Glenn Kroeger
15-Jan-2001, 14:07
Erik: I shoot color, so I am not emotionally tied to the issue.

I suspect the answer depends, in large measure, on how much photographers are willing to pay for B&W materials. As demand shrinks, companies look to the bottom line. They can discontinue products, or raise prices.

I suspect Kodak will be under pressure to reduce their product line. They always seem willing to kill products... remember dye transfer materials?

Overall, expect less selection and higher prices for the forseeable future. B&W materials are easier to produce than color, so you might see smaller companies expanding into the niche if prices are high enough for them to be profitable.

Depending on the march of digital technology, traditional color films and papers may not be far behind B&W, however, I would be surprised if there were no B&W materials available a decade from now... two decades is a different story.

Bill_1856
15-Jan-2001, 14:19
I thought they were already gone.

David R Munson
15-Jan-2001, 14:29
B&W will never go away, even in its current form, ever. Even if demand drops and manufacturers cut back, or even eliminate their B&W product lines, there will always be other companies to pick up where they left off and fulfill the needs of photographers. There are many photographers who, like myself, love B&W and every step of the process from loading the film to mounting the print. There are also artists, teachers, photojournalists, etc. who would want to keep B&W alive. There ist still a very strong market for B&W products and I don't see that market changing appreciably in the forseeable future. Sure, some people will switch over to digital, but there are plenty others for whom digital isn't even an option, either due to financial reasons or, like me, would just rather work with traditional materials.

A lot of people see digital photography as being something to replace both B&W and color film photography. Is digital going to bewhere it's at in ten years? Will the world's left over supply of film be used to pave roads and put at the bottom of gerbil cages? Not likely. The way I see it, digital isn't so much a replacement for film-based processes as it is a supplement to them. Early in the twentieth century when color processes were becoming available, people predicted that within x number of years, B&W would be dead. Who in their right minds would continue to shoot B&W when color was just as readily available? Quite a few people, as it turns out. As we know quite well by now, color wasn't a replacement for B&W, just another option. And that's exactly what I see digital as being- just another option.

So no, B&W photography will not disappear. Certain things, like the availability of certain products, might change, but I really can't see B&W photography as a whole losing much strength for a heck of a long time. Not if I have anything to do with it, anyway. That's my $.02 for the day....

Don Sparks
15-Jan-2001, 14:45
Agree with Dave. The people that are screaming the end of B&W are the same bunch that were screaming the world was going to end Jan. 1, 2000.

Trevor Crone
15-Jan-2001, 15:15
Companies like Kentmere (www.kentmere.co.uk) are producing more b/w papers then ever before. So the future is still bright for us silver printers. Regards,

Bruce Wehman
15-Jan-2001, 15:25
As long as the medium is used with talent and sensitivity and vision, there will be a demand for it. bw

andrea milano
15-Jan-2001, 17:36
I went for a "social" dinner with a number of photographers and dealers, and a dealer was telling me that they had never sold as much fiber based black and white paper as they do now. I have been teaching large format photography and in particular portrait for 7 years and as surprising as it might sound the interest is growing rather than going down. All this happens in Holland, but I know that in England things are similar if not better, so guys and gals what are we talking about?

Mike Kravit
15-Jan-2001, 20:43
I wish I was as positive as others here that feel B&W will be around for a long time to come. I think that it will be relegated to only the "fine art" group of people.

As a member of the Palm Beach Photographic Centre's Board of Directors, I can tell you that out darkroom workshops are barely hanging on. Our digital workshops on the other hand are booming and are booked up pretty quickly. Perhaps people are eager to learn the new technology, perhaps digital has a mystique that interests people. I don't know, but certainly hope that b+W is around for many many more years.

Mike

Charlie Stracl
15-Jan-2001, 20:54
I doubt B&W will die. Color dyes seem essentially unstable, though improving. There's always a market for permanent, and so far in photography, that seems limited to B&W.

By the way, litho B&W will likely never die as long as things are printed, including circuit boards for electronics. There's just no sense in using 3 layers when 1 will suffice (and actually perform better).

I sense that Ilford is also committed to B&W.

Michael Kadillak
15-Jan-2001, 21:50
I have been fortunate to work with Kodak as an engineering and business consultant and we have talked at length over drinks and dinners about product lines and the "future". While the sun does not rise or set with Kodak as per this particular subject of discussion, as one reference point I can tell you that Kodak has every intention in recovering the investment from the very successful and popular T- Max line as long as possible (with the expeption of the 5x7 line that is going to be offered as a special order product). But that fact alone will not make a hill of beans about what decisions are made down the road. What will matter, IMHO, will be what you see in the fashion magazines or on the walls of the corporations and galleries. Scanning the magazine racks at the large book stores the last few years has made me feel very good about the future of B&W. Most things we enjoy in this world have some economic hinge affixed to it. Profitability makes the wheels turn and photography is not immune from the grip of these forces. Color, as well as digital, makes a niche for itself be being attracted to a select mindset of consumer. The latest rage of digital will no doubt continue to progress in a very positive direction as processing speeds, memory, disk capacities and printer technologies advance at light speed. However, I look upon digital as a tool that I can elect to take out of or leave in the toolbox not as the evil vixen that at times it is made out to be. Some of the marketing data I have seen on digital seems to point to an incremental revenue stream for a consumer that otherwise may have been a roll of film a year user with conventional films. To those of you that have a calling to teach photography, all of us owe you a sincere thank you. It is partly from an introduction to the art form that new consumers of the entire photographic spectrum will find a reason to allow us to enjoy the product lines we have currently in front of us. I am disappointed that 5x7 is being squeezed, but we will persevere in finding the distributor that will have less overhead and the balls to step out and offer what the larger corporations are not willing to. These entrepreneurial individuals in the future that posture themselves to offer us the products and services we desire, we need to identify and patronize in a big way. In the short term, stay enthused about large format, B&W and photography and take some time to share this with others that express an interest. It will benefit us all.

Jim Galli
16-Jan-2001, 16:04
There are more high quality new parts for Model "A" Fords now than there were in 1950.

Mike Kravit
16-Jan-2001, 22:52
After spending the past 5 hours in the darkroom and winding up with 4 lovely, glowing, palladium prints my heart is filled with passion and a sense of accomplishment. To think that we may lose this would be a travesty.

I for one can only hope that we will never be so bold as to think that digital imaging can replace an art as lovely ad B&W.

Gary Ross
17-Jan-2001, 00:35
Digital Has it`s place (e-mailing a print for approval), but it cannot and will not replace silver prints for their graacious beauty ever. ?Have you ever eally seen a quality print by Ansel Adams or others close handd??? Absolutely gorgeous..B&W is not dead by a long shot........:-)

Matt_1193
17-Jan-2001, 04:50
B&W die? Never. Sure corporations may drop product lines, and films may cease to be available, but as long as we keep shooting it will never disappear - even if I end up painting home-brewed emulsions on plastic sheets!

Wayne Crider
18-Jan-2001, 20:34
I see B&W having a strong resurgence right now; The big thing being B&W portaits. I also see more than one B&W magazine on the newsstands. And although it is a C41 process, TCN and XP2 are good sellers. Remember that alot of real B&W paper is sold for printing this stuff. I also recently have seen a digital camera that shoots in B&W mode as well as color, and and seeing much larger foramts being looked at again. If anyone ever starts to produce a film in 12" wide rolls for self cutting with a devised propriety system, B&W as well as extreme LF cameras will take off. Dying? No.

Jason_1171
18-Jan-2001, 22:22
Of course B&W is on its way out. So is color film and digital, you, me, the earth, and everything else that exists. So the point is not to worry about what is inevitable. Enjoy it while it is here.

Jason

neil poulsen
19-Jan-2001, 06:21
I think that A.A. really put his finger on it when he commented that he could think of many photographs of great consequence (I'm paraphrasing) that were printed in black and white, but that he could think of none that were printed in color. (Even though, he took some excellent color photographs.)

I think that the fundamental way in which black and white can convey the essence of an image is here to stay.

Glenn Kroeger
19-Jan-2001, 18:34
In Erik's original post, I took the phrase "as it exists right now" to be the operative question.

Many of the replies here remind me of comments that my audiophile friends were making when CDs were released in the early 1980's. LPs and Shure V15-TypeIV cartidges would always be available because there would always be a demand for them. Well, new LPs are scarce, but Shure still makes a V15 (at least they did a year ago).

Well, desire doesn't equal demand. Economic demand requires not only desire, but enough people who are willing to spend enough money to make an enterprise profitable. There is clearly enough demand for V15s but not for vinyl recordings.

The end of the LP wasn't stopped by a small number of audiophiles who proclaimed the better audio quality of analog recordings. But fine music didn't disappear either. The end still lives, but the technological means to the end, changed.

I would certainly argue that B&W photography will continue to thrive. But that doesn't mean it will thrive "as it exists right now". Fiber base high-silver papers have no equals right now. But images from high resolution digital sensors printed on those papers MAY come to equal or exceed the results from traditional film. And inkjet or other printers that produce equal or better results MAY be designed.

So enjoy your B&W films and papers. They will probably outlive you and they may continue to be the best means to the end, fine B&W images. They will become more limited and expensive, but there may be enough TRUE DEMAND to keep some in production for decades, particularly since they can be manufactured on a small economic scale.

But don't ignore the possibility that the technological advances, paid for by the masses yearning for 4x6 inch color prints of office parties and proms, may ultimatly lead to better means of B&W photography than what "exists right now".

John Boeckeler
20-Jan-2001, 10:09
In my opinion, silver-based, chemically processed imagery is on the way out and will be replaced by digital imagery. It's happening right now. Someday the traditional black and white processes will be considered "alternative processes" limited to the fine art market As a long time black and white photographer working in all formats up to 8 x 10, I hate to see this. Yes, the films and papers available today are excellent. But their future availability depends entirely on market forces, and I suspect the overall market for these materials is diminishing. How many films are available in 5 x 7 and how many of those films do you think there will be in 5 years? How long do you think it will be before Kodak discontinues Verichrome Pan, my favorite 120 film? Do you really think that the fine art market alone can sustain the profitability of these and other black and white products? Just look at how Kodak's stock has performed over the last few years. I am familiar with one major workshop program, and I know that in the last few years many of their photo workshops have had to be cancelled for lack of people signing up. I don't think they've had the same problem with their digital program. So this is probably what we have to look forward to.

Kevin J. Kolosky
20-Jan-2001, 11:49
Not only am I a photographer, I am also a purchaser of fine art prints made by others. I don't display disks on my wall, nor monitors, nor drives, nor any of that stuff. I display Black and White silver based prints. Quite frankly, I don't care what they are made of so long as the quality is as good as silver based prints, and I have yet to see anything equal that quality (in my very humble opinion). When I go to Museums of Art to look at their photographic displays, they are almost always all black and white silver based. When you look at what sells in the fine art world (auctions) it is black and white. Long live silver based black and white !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kevin

Chris Partti
20-Jan-2001, 17:52
Glen Kroger's reference to the fate of the LP in the face of digital technology makes a good case for the continued availability of B&W materials. Nearly 20 years ago the major record manufacturers announced that CDs were "perfect sound forever" and they pushed the market hard toward the CD even ahead of consumer demand. (Manufactures of cameras and materials have been nowhere near as aggressive about forcing consumers to digital photography.) In the vacuum left by the major manufacturers' neglect, there has sprung up a thriving, although niche, market for LPs and LP playback equipment. In fact, years after the LP was declared dead, small audiophile manufacturers continue to design ever more expensive turntables and cartridges and small record companies continue to turn out LPs of old and new music. I expect that if major manufacturers abandon the B&W market the same thing will happen in photography.

Another example that should encourage optimism is the recent flowering of interest in alternative photography which has made readily available some processes that were virtually dead for half a century.

B&W may become even more of a niche market than it is now, but I am confident it will be around for a very long time.

Bruce Gavin
22-Jan-2001, 10:31
Kodak has already killed High Speed Infrared due to lack of interest.

Peter Lucchini
10-Jan-2002, 01:56
To Me Black And White Will Allways Make Me Stair , In Wonder At The Beauty Of A Large Print. It To Me Is Like An Artists Painting No Color Involved Just The Shades And Contrasts. Involving Features Just Seem To Draw You In To The Subject, Simple Yet Complex. Will Black And White Die? Only If We Let It, And We Allow It To.

John Kasaian
16-Sep-2006, 07:26
The same could be implied for traditional photography in general, but I don't think so---I think instead we've seen a major shift in the big players. Kodak cutting back and Agfa's demise are being made up for by asian and eastern european manufacturers who see a profit to be made.

Black and white is also within the realm of D-I-Ys who can coat glass plates and master alternative printing which makes me suspect that black and white as a genre will be around for as long as there are chemicals to make the stuff.

bob carnie
16-Sep-2006, 07:50
Ilford is announcing at Photokina a brand new black and white fibre paper I have been testing on our Lambda. Ilford digital fibre base. Basically Gallerie grade 4 with an extended red sensitivitey for better tone reproduction from digital capture and colour originals.
Deveere has been making a digital enlarger for the last few years that will be targeted to home use and schools.
Harmon Technology in Europe and North America will be actively approaching the photo schools with this new product line and targeting the young students that are born and raised with digital technology to teach them the merits of fibre base black and white prints.
I was lucky enough to go to photo college in the early seventies to catch the bug when black and white was heavy.
At 53 I am lucky enough to invest in this new technology and will definately ride the new wave of black and white printing and styles that will be prevelant over the next years.
Any one thinking that black and white is dead should take their heads out of the sand or *ass* and research what is happening and get involved. This is one of the most exciting periods of my life, being able to work in both analoque and digital photography. The hybrid possibilities are endless and we should as photographers and printers embrace it all.

paulr
16-Sep-2006, 07:52
I don't understand the question. Are you asking if black and white materials are on their way out, or if monochromatic image making has lost its relevence?

If it's materials you're worried about, then it's a kind of non-issue in the long run. Materials have been coming and going since the very beginning of the medium, and photographers have adapted, often with only minor effect on their work. And ofen with a positive effect. And many of the older materials will always be available if you care enough to make them yourself.

I've wondered more about the second question. When people look at my black and white work these days, a lot of them make comments suggesting that they see it as a historical or anachronistic process--as a deliberate choice on my part to do something "old fashioned," rather than an esthetic choice made from among several equally viable options. And obviously, this influences the way they see the work.

Of couse, this isn't what I'm after. But what can I do? It's as if I chose to drive around in a model-T, but didn't want to be seen as an antique car guy.

None of this has to do with how relevent the work is to me. But if this is a growing sentiment (and i'm not sure if it is, but i've been growing more aware of it) then it doesn't speak well for the future of black and white anything. It will just take one more generation of old codgers to exit the planet, and the monochrome photographic esthetic will be locked forever behind glass, along with vaudeville and the harpsichord.

Bruce Watson
16-Sep-2006, 07:57
From what I've read here recently, it seems that a lot of photographic companies have drastically reduced their commitment to black & white products. Most photo graphy is done in color, and black & white has survived mainly as an art medium. It looks like black & white photography as it exists right now might disappear altogether as companies decide that it is no longer cost-efficient to produce pr oducts for black & white photographers.

This is just speculation. Unless you have some facts to introduce, there's nothing to discuss.

leeturner
16-Sep-2006, 08:17
There was a thread on APUG about low stock levels in a couple of suppliers. Rather than a non availability of a product causing the low stock it was that the stock had sold out due to demand from people going back to school and college. I work above a small imaging company and most of their work is from film stock. For copying large artwork a 5x4 or 10x8 is still utilised. As Bob said, Ilford is producing a FB product for use in digital printing. This will ensure the production of fibre base.

The end of the world is not nigh!

BrianShaw
16-Sep-2006, 08:19
This is just speculation.
I'm not taking any chances... I'll be signing up for golf lessons, just in case I need a new hobby in the near future! (hee-hee)

scott_6029
16-Sep-2006, 10:00
Right along with the vacuum tube (readily available on the web in droves) and lp's (several current mfr. of newly released vinyl). Go to the high end audio show in Vegas - about 400+ rooms many consisting of tubes, turntables, vinyl, etc.

Big consumer marketplace? Nah, not like the gazillions that go the main convention hall for CES. But enough for dozens of turntable mfr's and vacuum tubes.

My estimate is the same will hold true for silver based photography...

Amund BLix Aaeng
16-Sep-2006, 10:09
You guys having fun waking up this five year old thread? ;)

roteague
16-Sep-2006, 11:00
There was a thread on APUG about low stock levels in a couple of suppliers. Rather than a non availability of a product causing the low stock it was that the stock had sold out due to demand from people going back to school and college. I work above a small imaging company and most of their work is from film stock. For copying large artwork a 5x4 or 10x8 is still utilised. As Bob said, Ilford is producing a FB product for use in digital printing. This will ensure the production of fibre base.

The end of the world is not nigh!

We have a shop here in Honolulu that serves primarily the B&W market, they sell no digital equipment, only B&W paper, film, etc. The business is booming this year.

Neal Shields
16-Sep-2006, 11:00
I am transitioning to doing most of my hobby (serious?) work in B&W because I can make a quality print. It is getting very difficult for me to get a color print of what I consider acceptable quality. Most "labs" print at 300 dpi now and I just don't see the point of using large format or even film for that matter if you are going to throw that much information away in the printing process.

Marko
16-Sep-2006, 11:07
What Paul said.

Remember the typewriter? Well, guess what, people still type, more than ever, only these days they do it all in digital and nobody even bothers talking about "the sound of the typewriter" or "real words being put tangibly on real paper" or any such sentimental rubbish. And it's been what, 10 years at most since personal computers became really ubiquitious...

Vacuum tubes, vynil LPs, typewriters...

All of these technologies are much cheaper and easier to produce than chemical photographic supplies. When the consumption drops bellow certain level, and it will, or more precisely, when profitability of it all becomes thinner and it will even more certainly, the production will simply cease, with or without notice.

And the photographers of the day will either adapt to whatever processes or tools are going to be available or they will take up golf or something along those lines.

And the world will keep on turning as it always has.

Because this is all about tools. Photography, on the other hand, has always been more about capturing or even making images. Writing with light, if you will.

Somehow, I don't think we should be concerned about disapearance of light. Yet. :)

roteague
16-Sep-2006, 11:11
Because this is all about tools. Photography, on the other hand, has always been more about capturing or even making images. Writing with light, if you will.

True, but some people, like me, don't want to have to sit in front of a computer to make prints. I find something most satisfying about loading a roll of film or sheet of film in the camera, that I couldn't get out of sitting in front of Photoshop.

Marko
16-Sep-2006, 11:32
True, but some people, like me, don't want to have to sit in front of a computer to make prints. I find something most satisfying about loading a roll of film or sheet of film in the camera, that I couldn't get out of sitting in front of Photoshop.

This is also true. In fact, these are two independent truths that increasingly have less and less to do with each other...

I don't say this with malice, however. I hope that you and others like you will get to enjoy using film and all that goes with it for a long time to come. In fact, I am still using it myself, occassionally.

But facts usually have very little to do with hopes and wishes, except on those rare occassions when they just happen to coincide. Some call it providence, others call it wonders... I wouldn't plan my future on it, though, because I consider it no more than happenstance.

Stan. L-B
16-Sep-2006, 12:39
This side of the pond it is often difficult to obtain large format information and materials, other than from Mike Ware, so quite often I have had to contact Sammys LA to get the service I require. But,this morning I received by post an extensive catalogue detailing all the bits and bobs for alternative photography. This publication must have cost the company an arm and a leg to get to print. It is of top quality and
details products pertaining to black and white film photography. This serendiptous news has put me in a very positive frame of mind for the future. However, I was surprised that they are unable to obtain TMax RS Developer and do not stock LF sheet film - yet -their loss. The UK company is: www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk

CXC
16-Sep-2006, 14:01
What Paulr said.

Film is what's dying, not particularly B&W. Kids pick up the latest thing, not what their grandparents used. Their cameras are in their cell phones, so that is what photography means to them: a quick snap shot that can be sent and consumed. Film isn't just old fashioned, it is also foreign to the current digital age. It is dying roughly with my generation (I'm 54), a slow death, granted, that will take thirty years or so.

B&W imagery has become an archaism, exactly like B&W movies. The vast majority of such images and movies are historical, and the few still being produced are drenched with a looking-backwards aesthetic as far as the general public is concerned.

Personally I find this a little disappointing, as I am losing interest in color photography, or rather I *would* find it disappointing were I likely to outlive the availability and relevance of B&W, but I expect to die first.

Donald Qualls
16-Sep-2006, 14:18
Remember the typewriter? Well, guess what, people still type, more than ever, only these days they do it all in digital and nobody even bothers talking about "the sound of the typewriter" or "real words being put tangibly on real paper" or any such sentimental rubbish. And it's been what, 10 years at most since personal computers became really ubiquitious...

And you can still buy upright, manual typewriters (albeit used), and ribbons for them, because there are still enough people who want/need to type stuff in places without dependable power for a computer/printer, or in an environment unfriendly to electronics, to keep a few repair shops open. Want to write the Great American Novel while living aboard a boat, either moored in salt water or under weigh on the ocean? An Underwood Office Model might be a better choice than a notebook -- and in an emergency, you can use it as a backup anchor... ;)


All of these technologies are much cheaper and easier to produce than chemical photographic supplies. When the consumption drops bellow certain level, and it will, or more precisely, when profitability of it all becomes thinner and it will even more certainly, the production will simply cease, with or without notice.

But the technology that made photographs in the 1850s hasn't gone anywhere. Wet plate is still alive, still a one-by-one handmade operation, and with wet plates and alt-process printing techniques like carbon-pigment, platinum, or even the "lowly" Van Dyke Brownprint, B&W photography can potentially survive for, well, as long as we can get collodion and silver nitrate. And I know how to make both of those (though making collodion is rather further on the hazardous side than I care to go if I can avoid it). Let me rephrase -- as long as I can buy sulfuric acid, I'll be able to proceed (since I also know how to make sodium nitrate, from which I can make nitric acid given a supply of sulfuric). I know how to make sulfuric acid, too, but it's a major pain and the smell tends to attract unwanted attention...

Marko
17-Sep-2006, 03:12
And you can still buy upright, manual typewriters (albeit used), and ribbons for them, because there are still enough people who want/need to type stuff in places without dependable power for a computer/printer, or in an environment unfriendly to electronics, to keep a few repair shops open.



But the technology that made photographs in the 1850s hasn't gone anywhere. Wet plate is still alive, still a one-by-one handmade operation, and with wet plates and alt-process printing techniques like carbon-pigment, platinum, or even the "lowly" Van Dyke Brownprint, B&W photography can potentially survive for, well, as long as we can get collodion and silver nitrate.

Well, yes, and the horse carriage is not dead yet either. Amish country is full of them, not to mention all the touristy places... ;)

Scott Knowles
17-Sep-2006, 06:33
This was recently posted on the rec.photo.darkroom newsgroup. It met with very enthusiastic response there, so with the author's permission, I would like to rep ost it to the forum here.

I would like to start a discussion about this topic to find out what other people's take on this issue is. Do you think that black & white photography is going to disappear? If so, why, and if not, why not? If it does disappear, what will b e the alternatives for people who still want to shoot in black & white?

I don't see b&w going way, just changing techniques. I like b&w film, especially Scala (sadly it's out of production but I still have 60+ rolls left). Anyway, while I get chatised on forums for working in b&W (and even asked if digital slr's can shoot b&w digitally), I see many of the same photographers desaturate color to get b&w images. It's ironic that they criticize the traditional methods, but they're willing to digitally manipulate color to mimic it. I don't see it disappearing and think (hopefully) b&w films will come back as people discover it's quite compatible with digital b&w, just different.

I guess I have a hard time understanding the corporate decisions about discontinuing some photography products (film, chemicals, paper) which are profitable, just not that profitable or have declining sales, while continuing development in and production of non-profitable aspects (cameras, lenses). But that's normal when corporations buy photographic companies and manage them for overall corporate image and business than for photography. That's was obvious in the loss of Agfa products, Minolta's sellout to Konica and then Sony, and Nikon's decision about camera and lens lines.

steve simmons
17-Sep-2006, 06:33
This is one of those dire warniongs that pops up every once in a while. We did an article several issues ago looking at the available films and clearly showed there is more sheet films available than any of us will ever use in our lifetimes, We do need to update the list and will do so but the article has been posted on the View Camera web site in the Free Articles section. If you are worried check it out and then relax.

steve simmons

Joseph O'Neil
17-Sep-2006, 07:09
39 years ago, as a kid, I shot my first B&W picture - Kodak Brownie, 620 film. At that time the corner drug was at the corner, one block north, and the pharmacist showed me all the new colour films, and told me how soon nobody would be shooting B&W anymore. However, at that time, B&W was still - film and processing - less than half the price of colour, and we didn't have much money, so I stuck with B&W, which turned out to be a life long love affair. :)

What do people want anymore? A grand summit at the UN of every world leader, who will sign in blood an ironclad guarantee that b&W film will always be produced? Sorry, I don't think real life works like that.

i have a suggestion (tounge in cheek mind you:) ) . The moderators start a new sub-forum call "People who need to get a life and love to complain about everything", and the next time we see another "demise" thread, it get's moved there.
:)

joe

Jim Chinn
17-Sep-2006, 08:38
All one needs to do is do some research on what has happened between the OP date (2001) and today.

We have lost papers from kodak (and Verichrome) and film and paper from Agfa, but Agfa chemistry continues under different mfg arrangements.

If you look at the number of film mfgs and paper options, the numbers are greater today then in 2001. If you shoot LF or ULF this is the best of times. More camera mfgs now then ever, more film options in all formats from 4x5 to 20x24. Ilford has reorganized into a better company dedicated to B&W and even Kodak has gone the distance and coated TMY for ULF shooters.

Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee have gone out on a limb to produce a new paper to replace AZO for contact printing and J&C Photo has said it will enter the film production business in the next couple of years.

There are even a couple new lenses being made for LF (although a bit on the pricey side).

In 2001 I thought we would be well on are way to one or two film and paper mfgs left with only a couple choices of emulsions and coatings. The marketplace has disproved that prediction.

I also can recount a discussion I had with Jim from Midwest Exchange a year ago when he told me they were selling more LF cameras then ever before. I would imagine most of those folks want to shoot B&W.

As far as the relativity of B&W imagery, pick up Lenswork each month. Lots of very good contemporary, cutting edge work being done. I don't think anything can supplant the beauty and revelation of a well done B&W portrait. This stuff also goes in cycles. Styles, genres, mediums go in and out of favor by collectors and art directors.

Marko
17-Sep-2006, 08:44
I still see this as two separate and very diferent issues. One of them, beaten to death already, is availability of traditional b&w materials - film, chemicals, paper... - and the other is the future of b&w photography.

Most participants still seem to bunch the two together, and even sneer at digital monochrome. I beg to differ - IMHO, one is ulimately the matter of market and profitablity, while the other is the matter of esthetics and style.

While the materials as we know them will eventually go away for the reasons already stated, the esthetics part is simply too unpredictable to guess.

Either way, I see no reason to worry - it's photography we're all after, it will be available in one form or the other for as long as there is an interest in visual arts.

Ron Marshall
17-Sep-2006, 08:44
i have a suggestion (tounge in cheek mind you:) ) . The moderators start a new sub-forum call "People who need to get a life and love to complain about everything", and the next time we see another "demise" thread, it get's moved there.
:)

joe

I heartily concur!

Jorge Gasteazoro
17-Sep-2006, 09:08
While the materials as we know them will eventually go away for the reasons already stated, the esthetics part is simply too unpredictable to guess.


You keep insisting on this when you are not more able to tell the future than anybody else. While you may think your sarcastic comments are cute, like the amish above. There are still a lot of people making good money manufacturing horse saddles and related items.

As to the aesthetics, nothing to unpredictable there. Some people like ink jets some dont...as long as there are people who dont, traditional B&W materials will be available.

Don Bryant
17-Sep-2006, 11:17
You keep insisting on this when you are not more able to tell the future than anybody else. While you may think your sarcastic comments are cute, like the amish above. There are still a lot of people making good money manufacturing horse saddles and related items.

As to the aesthetics, nothing to unpredictable there. Some people like ink jets some dont...as long as there are people who dont, traditional B&W materials will be available.
The end of B&W film will occur one week from today - hopefully so will this thread.

Don Bryant

Don Wallace
17-Sep-2006, 11:20
The short answer to your question is a simple no. Those who have been use black and white film are not the people who are just getting into photography via digital. At the same time, the number of people using black and white film is declining, as evidenced by diminishing resources. This will stabilize at a certain level at some point, but there will be change. It isn't going to be simply a bunch of old farts hanging on by their fingernails. The new state of the market will lead to unanticipated consequences, new people will see monochrome as an "alternate process," and the world of film will continue but in different ways.

I always get a kick out of the "horse and buggy in Amish country" comment. I am also a musician and would like to point out that digital entered the musical instrument industry (not just records) long before the world of photography. And as we know, EVERYONE is using digital amplifiers and digital instruments, right? Wrong. For example, the demand for acoustic guitars (gasp) has led to much greater choice than even 25 years ago. Discriminating electric guitar players use tube amplifiers. Yes, actual vacuum tubes. And so on. The music industry has greatly benefited from modern technology, including digital, and it has been transformed, but there is a huge market for traditional instruments.

Just to stick with the horse and buggy analogy, no one rides horses anymore as a means of transportation, but the "horse world" is not only thriving, there is a LOT of money involved. If you don't know that, then you are the one either living in the past or in Amish country.

Marko
17-Sep-2006, 13:25
Just to stick with the horse and buggy analogy, no one rides horses anymore as a means of transportation, but the "horse world" is not only thriving, there is a LOT of money involved. If you don't know that, then you are the one either living in the past or in Amish country.

Well, yes, that was my point. Should've attached a smiley or two, but I thought the humor was obvious. Mea culpa.

To make it clear, my point was precisely that no one rides horses any more as a means of transportation, not that there's something wrong with horses. Why horse lovers would get irritated by this statement is beyond me.

My other point is the distinction between photography in general and b&w in particular as an art on one hand and future availability of chemical photographic supplies, b&w or not, as a market trend on the other.

I don't have to like the trend in order to recognize it. There's really no need for traditionalists to get upset with me for stating my opinion, for I'm not even a messenger here. I'm just another guy who likes photography and who thinks these boards are here for discussion, not choir practice.

Marko
17-Sep-2006, 13:31
You keep insisting on this when you are not more able to tell the future than anybody else. While you may think your sarcastic comments are cute, like the amish above. There are still a lot of people making good money manufacturing horse saddles and related items.

As to the aesthetics, nothing to unpredictable there. Some people like ink jets some dont...as long as there are people who dont, traditional B&W materials will be available.

No sarcasm here, just stating my opinion. I may be right or I may be wrong, the time will show. I wouldn't bet my house on either possibility, however.

Would you?

Donald Qualls
17-Sep-2006, 14:29
Just to stick with the horse and buggy analogy, no one rides horses anymore as a means of transportation, but the "horse world" is not only thriving, there is a LOT of money involved. If you don't know that, then you are the one either living in the past or in Amish country.

In fact, last I checked, there were more horses in America in 2001 than there were in 1901, despite a century of growth in the automobile industry.

IMO, digital technology will *save* B&W film. No, not because cameras made for digital will be converted, but because the Internet will make it practical to distribute from a limited number of outlets -- in fact, already has, as amply demonstrated by Amazon.com. Outfits like J&C Photo, a single store in Salinas, Kansas, in partnership with Fotoimpex, with less than half a dozen outlets in Europe, have enough economic clout to not just seriously consider, but to actually start up a new coating operation; even Kodak, I think, now sells more film (which is and for many decades has been primarily a cine product, in terms of volume) via the Internet than they do through traditional distributors.

So, insofar as the coating process itself can be scaled back (which remains to be seen, since the smaller scale equipment from the 1920s and 1930s was dismantled around WWII), the costs associated with multi-level distribution can be avoided, middle-men cut out of the chain, and as a result even costs to the consumer might not rise as much as some have predicted -- all because most of the volume is switching to Internet sales.

No, I don't expect to be able to buy quality 4x5 film for fifty cents a sheet for the rest of my life -- but I don't see it heading up into glass plate prices (i.e. more for a single exposure than for a big meal at McDonald's) any time soon.

And there is *still* wet plate and alt-process printing to fall back on, just as there'll be the Amish to remind us how to breed good horseflesh and build carriages for the horses to pull if we should ever really *need* that technology again...

Andrew O'Neill
17-Sep-2006, 15:04
Thought I'd pop my head in here while everyone at Per's Western Canada workshop is touring the Anthropology Museum at UBC (pouring rain outside...at least we had two days of beauty weather!)
I don't know about you but I'm getting pretty tired of these "will b/w stuff die?" threads...IT AIN'T GOING TO DIE. There...gotta get back.

Geert
17-Sep-2006, 15:17
OK, lock down this thread and reopen in 2011.

G

Barry Trabitz
17-Sep-2006, 18:52
I just saw the Edward Weston show at the Wadsworth Athaneum in Hartford Connecticut. In my opinion after viewing some of these prints it is impossible to believe this artform will become non exhistant.

Andrew O'Neill
17-Sep-2006, 23:27
OK, lock down this thread and reopen in 2011.

NOOOOOoooooo....just leave it.

paulr
18-Sep-2006, 00:05
I think the horse and buggy is a good analogy. The issue isn't extinction, it's marginalization.

In the 19th century, if you wanted to get somewhere, you'd typically use a horse. Today, you use a horse if you want to enjoy a horse; if you want to get somewhere, you use a modern alternative.

The daguerrotype is still around for people who want to enjoy it for its own sake. But compared to its heyday, it's been marginalized. It's way, way out on the margins of the world of image making technology. Every process has its day. It doesn't die after that, it just gets put out to pasture, where people with eccentric interests can visit and enjoy it.

The same will happen to today's state of the art. And if you're convinced that today's digital point 'n shoots and cheap-ass computers will never be revisited for nostalgia and collection, take a look at what's going on now with synthesizers and other electronic musical instruments from the 70s, and video game consoles from the 80s.

steve simmons
18-Sep-2006, 06:57
As a horse person I enjoyed the analogy. I am actually teaching a horse to drive (pull a carriage). Audiophiles are now using tubes again because of the quality of the sound.

Relax and enjoy black and white photography. Shoot more and make these dire postings less.

steve simmons

paulr
18-Sep-2006, 07:37
Relax and enjoy black and white photography. Shoot more and make these dire postings less.

One way to relax is to notice that ultimately, the thuggish march of technology results in more options, not fewer. It seems like fewer at first, as your favorite film or paper vanishes, but in the big picture you have more ... cottage industries take over and start producing esoteric stuff, you can look back further in history and make your own materials, or you can buy the new stuff.

I have a cd player and a digital audio interface for my computer, hooked up to a tube amplifier made two years ago that has tubes from the 1960s in it. And when I have some cash, I want to get a turntable. There are actually more types of nice quality ones being made now than there ever were (though they're made in very small quantitis compared with their heyday, and most of the LPs are in the bins of used record shops, thrift shops, and fanatical collectors).

CXC
18-Sep-2006, 09:45
As an amateur, I would be very interested to hear from the pros in this forum: how many make some decent money in B&W? Better yet, quantify it if you can: who makes more than 10% of their income doing B&W? Let's add some actual facts to spice up all this pontification and speculation.

Gordon Moat
18-Sep-2006, 15:40
As an amateur, I would be very interested to hear from the pros in this forum: how many make some decent money in B&W? Better yet, quantify it if you can: who makes more than 10% of their income doing B&W? Let's add some actual facts to spice up all this pontification and speculation.

Hello Christopher,

I will start off by mentioning David Fokos, who shoots 8x10, and Anton Corbijn, who is mostly a 35mm and sometimes medium format shooter. We could also add in Howard Shatz and Albert Watson, though both have rarely, if ever, used large format for their images. Then their is Stefan May, who also shoots and displays 35mm B/W under the name of Lens Lensfield. Other than those photographers, off the top of my head, there would be about 1/4 of the photographers at Magnum.

Now if you only meant fine art photographers, and only meant large format B/W shooters, then I think you will find a much more limited selection. Judging by some recent figures I have seen, fine art photography is the worst paying branch of all professional photography. I would seriously doubt that such a group buys more than many amateurs and enthusiasts.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

roteague
18-Sep-2006, 15:40
As an amateur, I would be very interested to hear from the pros in this forum: how many make some decent money in B&W? Better yet, quantify it if you can: who makes more than 10% of their income doing B&W? Let's add some actual facts to spice up all this pontification and speculation.

I don't have an answer myself, but I do know several photographers that make 100% of their living shooing B&W film, and printing on traditional papers. So, it can be done, how well, just depends upon you, your skill level and your attitude.

Don Wallace
18-Sep-2006, 17:43
I am beginning to think that in threads like this about the demise of film, the "wishful thinking" is actually on the part of those who trumpet digital. It is as if they have a deep need to be vindicated in their choice. They secretly pray that film will disappear and keep telling us about it. Joseph suggested that there should be a column about "people who need to get a life and complain about everything." But I think that such a column would be for the chicken littles who keep telling us monochrome aficionadaos that we are doomed. Chuckle. I guess I shouldn't mention my interest in wet plate. That would probably probably put them over the edge.

tim atherton
18-Sep-2006, 17:55
I am beginning to think that in threads like this about the demise of film, the "wishful thinking" is actually on the part of those who trumpet digital. It is as if they have a deep need to be vindicated in their choice. They secretly pray that film will disappear and keep telling us about it. Joseph suggested that there should be a column about "people who need to get a life and complain about everything." But I think that such a column would be for the chicken littles who keep telling us monochrome aficionadaos that we are doomed. Chuckle. I guess I shouldn't mention my interest in wet plate. That would probably probably put them over the edge.

I think that says a lot more about you than it says about anything else

Jorge Gasteazoro
18-Sep-2006, 19:09
I am beginning to think that in threads like this about the demise of film, the "wishful thinking" is actually on the part of those who trumpet digital. It is as if they have a deep need to be vindicated in their choice. They secretly pray that film will disappear and keep telling us about it. Joseph suggested that there should be a column about "people who need to get a life and complain about everything." But I think that such a column would be for the chicken littles who keep telling us monochrome aficionadaos that we are doomed. Chuckle. I guess I shouldn't mention my interest in wet plate. That would probably probably put them over the edge.

I've come to the same conclusion.

tim atherton
18-Sep-2006, 20:13
As an amateur, I would be very interested to hear from the pros in this forum: how many make some decent money in B&W? Better yet, quantify it if you can: who makes more than 10% of their income doing B&W? Let's add some actual facts to spice up all this pontification and speculation.


It depends in part where you are looking, and there have been some good answers to your question - there are so many different areas of photography.

If, for example, you look at any major survey of art and photography though, B&W is definitely in the minority. One small example - I took a book on contemporary photography away to the cottage this summer, and I realized by the time I got to the end of it, of the dozens of photographers work it examined, only three used b&w.

There are photographers who are making money by making art and photographing in b&w, selling the galleries and museums and collectors - Friedlander, Adams, Basilico, James, Sugimoto, Frank, Davies etc. But at a guess, they probably make up about 15%-20% of the field in that area - at most?

And if you look at what serious photojournalism there is being done in B&W - I don't know - maybe about the same percentage - if that (with Magnum probably being the one place with a slightly higher percentage)? As rare as the extended photo essay is these days, the b&w photo essay seems even rarer.

In the "fine art" area (i.e. art fair type work) you are probably going to see a somewhat higher percentage of b&w work - in the same way you will probably see a higher percentage of somewhat more traditional watercolour and oil painting (rather than say colour-field work or abstract expressionism) - and there is a market for that.

In any of these though, it's probably a niche you really have to excel at. Most photo editors aren't going to assign someone to go shoot a major story/event/conflict in B&W - unless you are Larry Towell, Dave Burnett or Jim Nachtwey etc (unless you are VERY persuasive!).

Marko
19-Sep-2006, 00:41
Chuckle. I guess I shouldn't mention my interest in wet plate. That would probably probably put them over the edge.

Even better, you could scan a couple of them and post the result right there in the forum.

That'll really show them!

:D

Leonard Metcalf
19-Sep-2006, 04:19
Is the pencil dead? What happened to the end of paper? Are etchings still celebrated and explored as an effective artistic medium? Why can you still learn and enjoy limestone lithography? Black and white is hear to stay, even if it's traditional film form is relegated to fine artists or those who love the process. Even if the major players abandon us there will still be the small specialist supplier. Why you can still buy Printing Out Paper.

Finally there is the modern generation, where fads come and go. Tradition is in one week and out the next, yet to return another. Black and white as a form of artistic expression will never die. One small piece of evidence is the photoshop plug ins that replicate film or the huge interest in black and white inkjet printers.

Just my 2 cents worth....

Don Wallace
19-Sep-2006, 07:50
Is the pencil dead? What happened to the end of paper? Are etchings still celebrated and explored as an effective artistic medium? Why can you still learn and enjoy limestone lithography? Black and white is hear to stay, even if it's traditional film form is relegated to fine artists or those who love the process. Even if the major players abandon us there will still be the small specialist supplier. Why you can still buy Printing Out Paper.


Leonard, I think we should give up and just continue to do what we do. I don't use digital photographic technology much personally, but I do every time I get scans and large prints done of my colour work. I have been trying to scan my own stuff for occasional photography (family stuff, etc.) without too much success so far. But this will never be enough for tech heads who insist that everyone should go completely digital (the "FILM IS DEAD" crowd). The point I tried to make in my last comment in this thread was simply this: those of us who enjoy using film continue to enjoy using film, but there are far too many tech nerds in photography who insist that their way is the only way and thus assume that anyone who hasn't abandoned their darkroom must be a luddite nut. I simply think they doth protest too much. It is amusing, however.

John Kasaian
19-Sep-2006, 08:04
I'm curious as to the intent of "...on its way out."

1)Does it suggest a decline in the popularity of B&W images?
2)Or does it suggest that photographers no longer seem to be taking photos in B&W?
3)Or is it meant to suggest that B&W photo materials are becoming extinct?

My response would be
1) No.
2) No.
3) As long as the answers to 1 & 2 are "no," its not likely.

Cheers!

Leonard Metcalf
20-Sep-2006, 04:46
Don, I must agree with you, I too am over the film verse digital arguments. I love film, love the smell of fixer, I miss my darkroom, hate the fact that I lost my first five years of digital images to a crashed hard drive, read every review of any digital camera of significance, and love to be able to go to my computer and print an identical print to the last one I did. And am completely satisfied that I will be able to keep shooting film till I'm too old.

And yes it is amusing to watch...

Andrew O'Neill
25-Sep-2006, 22:45
One word...NO!
Funny, I still teach intaglio and woodblock printing at my high school. Photography didn't eliminate these forms of printmaking...okay, that was more than one word.

andrea1971
26-Sep-2006, 03:25
Hello also here in very difficult Italy it find produced for bw, a lot what it there is not and it will be more difficult sampre to find this for those printers is very sad, I do not share the digital one like quality, alone for speed in some practical intense activities, we hold hard and saremo repaid from the quality of our work and from the desire to photograph, like art and not like fashion (digital):)

Ciao anche qui in Italia è molto difficile trovare prodotti per bw, molte cose non ci sono e sarà sampre più difficile trovare questo per noi stampatori è molto triste,non condivido il digitale come qualità, solo per velocità in alcuni lavori pratici ,teniamo duro e saremo ripagati dalla qualità del nostro lavoro e dalla voglia di fotografare,come arte e non come moda.(digitale):)

Ted Harris
26-Sep-2006, 06:21
To me, the fact that this thread has been going on for FIVE years is the best indication that the answer is a resounding NO.:)

paulr
26-Sep-2006, 07:02
To me, the fact that this thread has been going on for FIVE years is the best indication that the answer is a resounding NO.:)

I'm not sure of that. There are many examples of things that are perpetually on their way out but never gone ... dying but not dead. It's not about the last of the materials being gone, or the last practitioner dying. This will never happen. It's about the cultural relevency of something that was once central getting pushed farther and farther out to the margins.

Does this matter? Depends on your goals. It seems like for the bulk of people here, who use the materials primarily because they like them, there's no good reason to stop.

For those interested in reaching an audience, there are advantages AND disadvantages to being mainstream--you might seem more relevent, but you also might seem more commonplace.

Ralph Barker
26-Sep-2006, 07:33
To me, the fact that this thread has been going on for FIVE years is the best indication that the answer is a resounding NO.:)

Just for fun, let me take the opposite view and say that five years is nothing, and the answer to the five-year old question is a resounding yes.

B&W photography will be completely replaced by 3-D interactive color holograms on the holodeck. There is, however, a certain irony to the fact that if pin 17 on connector no. 493 shorts to pin 18, the whole place changes to monochrome. ;)

CXC
26-Sep-2006, 08:27
Relevancy-wise, the turntable metaphor is apt. Compare the number of turntables sold in the last couple of years with the number of iPods to get a sense of the relative cultural marketshare.

Don Wallace
26-Sep-2006, 08:42
I have changed my mind on this. Black and white photography IS finished. Film is definitely dead. This is bad news for all you Luddite Losers who are stuck with what now amounts to junk equipment. However, do not despair. I have started the Don Wallace Museum for Defunct Hardware and I will pay you 10 cents on the dollar for certain pieces of equipment. I am particularly interested recent high end lenses (formerly high end, that is, until the advent of digital) and I think I might be able to find a spot for nice Philips 11x14 (including holders which are now, of course, utterly useless). I know that the money I am offering is pretty low-ball, but if you have enough for sale, it might be sufficient to get you a nice Nikon D2 or something similar.

Donald Brewster
26-Sep-2006, 09:24
Film has been allegedly dying since the late 19th century. Maybe B&W will become an "alternative process" like gum, bromoil, PT/PD, etc., but it will be around long after we are dead.

paulr
26-Sep-2006, 09:30
Relevancy-wise, the turntable metaphor is apt. Compare the number of turntables sold in the last couple of years with the number of iPods to get a sense of the relative cultural marketshare.

Or even more significant than this--look at the amount of new music released on LP vs. what's released on CD or MP3.

It's sobering. Then consider that the bulk of music released on LP is dance tracks for DJs ... the number intended for listening is almost nonexistent.

BUT--the world is still full of LPs, including some of the best music ever recorded, and there are a lot of fanatical people buying these up wherever they get a chance (record fairs, used stores, thrift shops ...) and buying expensive turntables to listen to them. In fact there are more high end turntables being made today than ever before in history.

So the parallel to the photographic fringe seems like a good one. The LP used to mainstream. Now it's so fringe that a lot of kids have never had one in their hands, and it's not a relevent medium for most recording artists. But plenty remain, and there's an enthusiastic subculture that continues to love them.

Chris Strobel
26-Sep-2006, 10:14
Yes B&W is on its way out, out to a gallery near you :D

Christopher Perez
26-Sep-2006, 10:18
Indeed it is.

Stay tuned. 2007 might be an "interesting" year for, at least, this cowpoke. B&W silver gelatin... maybe a little palladium... maybe a little platinum too... :) :)


Yes B&W is on its way out, out to a gallery near you :D

Ron Marshall
26-Sep-2006, 10:45
Yes it definately is: on it's way out of my fridge and into my filmholders. Several times a week, (if schedule permits)

Andrew O'Neill
26-Sep-2006, 16:25
Yes it definately is: on it's way out of my fridge and into my filmholders. Several times a week, (if schedule permits)

HA HA HA HAAAAAA.... Love it!

Michael Daily
26-Sep-2006, 16:33
The same basic argument was used to decry the death of painting as a result of photography, the death of lithography due to the offset press, and the death of the spear at the introduction of the bow and arrow. The advertised death of the world in 2000 CE was off by at least 2 years. Research shows that the birth of Christ was probably 2 BCE or 4 BCE. Therefore, the end of the world at 2000CE was actually 2 years earlier. Did anyone notice? To paraphrase: the announcement of the death of B/W is greatly exaggerated...

Ted Harris
26-Sep-2006, 17:24
B&W photography will be completely replaced by 3-D interactive color holograms on the holodeck. There is, however, a certain irony to the fact that if pin 17 on connector no. 493 shorts to pin 18, the whole place changes to monochrome. ;)


Damnit Jim, I'm a photogtapher, not a programmer!:)

Ralph Barker
26-Sep-2006, 18:22
Damnit Jim, I'm a photogtapher, not a programmer!:)

Not to worry. We'll let Jordy handle it. ;)

Don Wallace
27-Sep-2006, 06:56
Yes it definately is: on it's way out of my fridge and into my filmholders. Several times a week, (if schedule permits)

Ron Marshall wins for best contribution, EVER, to this much-flogged topic.

Robert Skeoch
27-Sep-2006, 13:02
Now I'm really confused.
Is b&w dead or not.
I need to know because I want to tell the people who just bought new large format cameras from me. Plus I'll want to let the people know who are ordering film, that they're behind the times.
It's time to get out and shoot.
-Rob

billschwab
16-Oct-2006, 19:53
I think it is more alive today than it has been in some time. I tend to see the digital dive people take as cyclical. In many cases I see people coming back after a few years chasing pixels. At one time I was ready to give-up my darkroom, now I am more likely to give up my carbon pigments. I hardly use them anymore.

Bill

Capocheny
16-Oct-2006, 21:28
Ron Marshall wins for best contribution, EVER, to this much-flogged topic.

Hear, hear... that one was a rip-snorter! :)

Reminds me of all those guys running around espousing that the world is coming to an end!

Cheers

Patrik Roseen
17-Oct-2006, 00:54
...
Reminds me of all those guys running around espousing that the world is coming to an end!...


If the world was coming to an end, maybe we would see the economy booming from people doing all the things they always wanted but never did, wars ending - peace everywhere...

...but then again, there would always be some pessimistic people who would claim it wasn't! ;-)

Dirk Rösler
17-Oct-2006, 01:06
I read in a Japanese photo magazine (current Asahi Camera has a special on b/w film) today that sales of b/w film in Japan in 2005 were 20% of what they used to be in 1995 (then 100 million rolls p.a.). The year by year graphs did not show any trend that would suggest a change in this, or anything 'cyclical' for that matter.

So I would not say there is an end, just an 'adjustment' as the economists would call it. Selling 20 million units of film per year in just one single country still seems a viable business proposition to me...

Capocheny
17-Oct-2006, 01:26
If the world was coming to an end, maybe we would see the economy booming from people doing all the things they always wanted but never did, wars ending - peace everywhere...

...but then again, there would always be some pessimistic people who would claim it wasn't! ;-)

Hi Patrik,

It's either a booming economy or perhaps it's all those people who want to "take it with them! :)"

Cheers

Colin Robertson
17-Oct-2006, 04:15
Hey Bill- just seen the feature on your work in the latest (UK) Black and white photography. Absagoddamloutely beautiful. What an outstanding understanding of light. And to find such drama in such subtle images and compositions? Stunning. Thanks.

C. D. Keth
17-Oct-2006, 10:27
Photography didn't kill off painting, nor did CNC machines kill off handmade furniture. B&W photography will survive.

ronald lamarsh
18-Oct-2006, 08:40
Personally I think this type of statement is much like the bogus intelligence that was used to scare everybody into thinking Iraq had WMD. True kodak and Agfa may be getting out of the market but Efke,Foma, Kentmere,Adox,Forte.Maco,Bergger and Oriental are readily available to me. It would seem that there are plenty willing to supply a niche market.

spenc
2-Nov-2006, 12:15
The problem is with statements and the belief that digital is "the way things are going" is just a sell out. The problem with digital is you have every other person who now things they are a photographer because with their fancy new digtal camera they get some - to them - good shots. And these are the folks that are showing up to the workshops. I was one out of 13 at a workshop who had film and the majority of them had no idea what a F stop was, let alone how that worked with the shutter speed. But the bigger problem is that they didn't even know how to make their camers capable of setting these.
Digital has it's place - but to have a truly fine art print - is a silver print. For those of use, and there are more than you think, want to remain true to our art, the products will be around. And in, say 100 years, how does that digital print still look?

True to Silver!

paulr
2-Nov-2006, 14:13
The problem is with statements and the belief that digital is "the way things are going" is just a sell out. The problem with digital is you have every other person who now things they are a photographer because with their fancy new digtal camera they get some - to them - good shots ...

That's an old saw ... you're basically saying that photography is supposed to belong to an elite, and so tools that make it accessible to the rabble are bad.

Same argument was made against film, the brownie, the leica, transparency film, and polaroid.

paulr
2-Nov-2006, 14:18
Something to consider before the question makes anyone defensive ... things that are "on their way out" often come back. They might go out and come back a dozen times under different guises.

The question might be about fashion and the sentiment of the zietgeist more than about extinction.

Jim collum
2-Nov-2006, 14:22
True to Silver!


Silver is some new fangled contraption, produced to allow those who don't understand real photography and coating to take pictures. whoever heard of letting some factory mix your chemistry and have a *machine* coat your paper. Before you know it, anyone is going to be able to just walk into a store and buy a box of paper... sheesh. any real photographer mixes their own and hand coats with platinum.

:)

paulr
2-Nov-2006, 14:54
Silver is some new fangled contraption, produced to allow those who don't understand real photography and coating to take pictures. whoever heard of letting some factory mix your chemistry and have a *machine* coat your paper. Before you know it, anyone is going to be able to just walk into a store and buy a box of paper... sheesh. any real photographer mixes their own and hand coats with platinum.

:)

Platinum?!! what, are you some kind of new-fangled turn-of-the-century dandy? Let me guess ... you don't even use wet plates, like real men. You probably use those dry ones that any kid can use. Don't even tell me you use that so-called "film" ... my momma taught me that a film was something you scrub off the bathtub.

Donald Qualls
2-Nov-2006, 14:59
Silver is some new fangled contraption, produced to allow those who don't understand real photography and coating to take pictures. whoever heard of letting some factory mix your chemistry and have a *machine* coat your paper. Before you know it, anyone is going to be able to just walk into a store and buy a box of paper... sheesh. any real photographer mixes their own and hand coats with platinum.

:)

Heh. :)

This sounds a LOT like what Mathew Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll) said when gelatin dry plates hit the market commercially in England: "Now, they have let the rabble in!" Shortly thereafter, he's said to have put away his camera...

tim atherton
2-Nov-2006, 15:26
Damned uppity photographers - nothing but a bunch of failed painters " the photographic industry was the refuge of every would-be painter, every painter too ill-endowed or too lazy to complete his studies" Baudelaire

robc
2-Nov-2006, 16:43
Heh. :)

This sounds a LOT like what Mathew Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll) said when gelatin dry plates hit the market commercially in England: "Now, they have let the rabble in!" Shortly thereafter, he's said to have put away his camera...

"Lewis Carroll was the pseudonym of the Rev. Charles Lutwidge Dodgson" (http://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/)

Some of his images can been seen in the Museum in Guildford, England. I must remember to go and have a look next time I'm up that way.

Peter Lewin
2-Nov-2006, 19:40
Well, I was at PhotoPlus '06 today, and several companies gave me optimism. Harman Technology (the company which owns Ilford's "wet" products) is very committed to keeping B&W film and printing paper around, and are even developing chemicals where they believe Kodak may discontinue them (i.e. they are producing a new Selenium Toner, partly because they feel Kodak may discontinue producing it, thereby giving Harman/Ilford a new niche). Bergger is equally committed, and has even explored additional films. They apparantly tried to develop a 400ASA sheet film, but were unhappy with their prototype. Keith Canham said that the large format market is in fact growing. So I'm pretty comfortable that B&W (non-digital) photography will be around for a while yet.

Donald Qualls
7-Nov-2006, 11:38
"Lewis Carroll was the pseudonym of the Rev. Charles Lutwidge Dodgson" (http://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/)

Some of his images can been seen in the Museum in Guildford, England. I must remember to go and have a look next time I'm up that way.

Damn, I *always* cock that up... :o

billschwab
23-Jan-2007, 07:55
Hey Bill- just seen the feature on your work in the latest (UK) Black and white photography. Absagoddamloutely beautiful. What an outstanding understanding of light. And to find such drama in such subtle images and compositions? Stunning. Thanks.Wow.. Thank you VERY much Colin! Sorry not to respond to this sooner!

Bill

Turner Reich
24-Jan-2007, 04:45
Yes black & white photography is on the way out. That said, It's going to be a long long long time before it's gone, so get out there and buy buy buy before it time to say good bye bye bye.
tr

Robert Hughes
24-Jan-2007, 14:51
I dunno if b&w is going out of favor elsewhere, but my b&w printing class in DC is full - hardly a moment goes by where there isn't paper in both the 2 developer trays during class. The "history of photography" class got cancelled for lack of attendees, though. And the "digital intro" class I was supposed to attend, the teacher didn't bother to show up. So, that's where it stands here.

chris jordan
24-Jan-2007, 15:32
There are groups of musicians who still sing Gregorian chants from the ninth century, so I think it is unlikely that a medium as espressive and beautiful as B&W photography is going to disappear anytime soon. I think it will change over time, and it clearly is not "the medium of the moment" as it once was (some kind of video game installation art holds that position right now), but B&W will always be around, at least until the red giant thing happens, and then it won't matter anyway.

Bruce Watson
24-Jan-2007, 15:45
This thread is FIVE YEARS OLD!!!

Why can't it stay dead?

Bill_1856
24-Jan-2007, 16:06
So, IS black & white photography on its way out?

Yes.

cobalt
24-Jan-2007, 18:06
I was invited to speak to a class ( photo 101) as a visiting artist at a local private university day before yesterday. I was asked to talk about various camera types, as I shoot more than one format. To make a long story short, I was supposed to speak for 30 minutes; my presentation lasted about 1 and 1/2 hours. I took three cameras (Yashica Electro 35 rangefinder, Graflex Super Graphic, and a Hasselblad. The questions just kept coming. Clearly there is an interest residing (often latent) in those to whom the particulars of the art are presented.

John Kasaian
24-Jan-2007, 18:19
This thread keeps coming back like left over four day old roast beef!

FWIW, around my place black & white photography is on the way out--the door at oh-dark thirty tomorrow morning but will return in time for a late lunch ;)

Turner Reich
29-Jan-2007, 00:05
No.

Al D
29-Jan-2007, 22:58
Well, I was at PhotoPlus '06 today, and several companies gave me optimism. Harman Technology (the company which owns Ilford's "wet" products) is very committed to keeping B&W film and printing paper around, and are even developing chemicals where they believe Kodak may discontinue them (i.e. they are producing a new Selenium Toner, partly because they feel Kodak may discontinue producing it, thereby giving Harman/Ilford a new niche). Bergger is equally committed, and has even explored additional films. They apparantly tried to develop a 400ASA sheet film, but were unhappy with their prototype. Keith Canham said that the large format market is in fact growing. So I'm pretty comfortable that B&W (non-digital) photography will be around for a while yet.

Well, Bergger will need to find somebody else to produce their films and papers after February 26th when Forte ceases operations.

We've seen a serious weakening of links in the analog B&W supply chain over the past year. We're losing manufacturers of paper bases and film supports (which tends to go under the radar, because these are often subcontractors to those manufacturing the finished product) in addition to those doing emulsion production and coating.


Right now we've got:

a) Traditional large-scale players who may not be able to downsize production infrastructure to cope with diminished demand, or who may not be interested in doing so
b) Smaller-scale players who may not be able to operate profitably in a "manufacture to order" model or adapt their products when their are changes further down the supply chain (e.g. a paper base supplier drops out of the market
c) Rising raw material costs (I sure as heck wouldn't want to buy silver using Yen, Yuan, Forints, or Koruna)
d) Significant obstacles facing many manufacturers in terms of labor laws that make it difficult to adjust staff levels
e) Mounting evidence that once the production of film and paper production infrastructure is lost - it's gone for good. Recapitalization would be beyond the means of any consortium of retailers because the size of the market wouldn't allow them to finance the capital.
f) Immobility of the product lines (you can't simply expect to coat Forte films on Foma's coating line, for example)
g) Macroeconomic forces that suggest alternate physical demand for silver (demand for silver for jewelry-making in India has gone off the charts in the past 10 years) and its potential use as a currency hedge (comments like those voiced by Jean-Claude Trichet yesterday in Davos are making lots of folks skittish) are going to crowd out traditional industrial usage.
h) Increased environmental regulation - even in places like China (which just announced new regulations concerning the usage of heavy metals).
i) The sad fact that in a lot of developing nations the land owned by the manufacturers offers a better return than continued operations. This is what did in Sterling a few years back and there have been strong suggestions from folks on APUG having business connections with Forte that this is what led to Forte's closure since they are owned and operated by a real estate investment and management group.

Given all the above, Ilford probably is in the best position to succeed at the moment (flexible UK labor laws, strong currency, size may enable them to subcontract film support and paper base needs elsewhere, etc.) but "g", "h", "i" are beyond anyone's means to combat.

I find it extremely difficult to be bullish on the future of analog B&W photography at the present time. I hope that I am soon able to feel otherwise.

BrianShaw
30-Jan-2007, 07:37
Well, Bergger will need to find somebody else to produce their films and papers after February 26th when Forte ceases operations.


And hopefully Bergger will improve the light-tightness of the 120 backing paper when they do that!

mark anderson
30-Jan-2007, 08:16
if black and white last longer than this thread we will have no worries :D

archivue
30-Jan-2007, 10:40
Black and white will last till the death of Sugimoto ! ;-)

Take a Phaseone P45, shoot, edit in photoshop, desature... S curves... and print on a lamdba using real BW paper... that's Black and white also, and it's just the start !

Dick Hilker
27-Mar-2007, 13:12
I, too, believe B&W is going to be around for a very long time, but perhaps not in the way many here have been considering. Traditional materials and processes are being successfully replaced by newer ones.

This observation is from someone who started developing his film about sixty years ago and loved every minute of many years in a darkroom. I still shoot film, though almost exclusively color, convert the image to B&W with special software and scan it for printing on a pigment ink inkjet printer which, in combination with some of the new papers developed specifically for high-quality archival B&W printing, does a much better job than I was ever able to do in the old darkroom. The fact that Crane and Hahnemuhle paper companies have devoted research to producing papers that replicate the look and feel of photographic papers is a strong vote for the continuation of B&W photography -- albeit in a different form.

Tedward
3-Apr-2007, 00:45
Black And White Will Never Die...i Can Remember After World War 2 In England When Coulor Started To Appear....all The Newspapaers, And Magazines Were Saying That Now Colour Has Arrived...black And White Will Become A Dinosaur....(cobblers)...the Boffins And Crystal Ball Gazers Got It Wrong Over Sixty Years Ago... Admittedly It Has Lost A Lot Of It's Popularity Due To The Arrival Of Digital Photography Which Is Also Understandable. I Fell In Love With Monochrome Photography In 1957, Then Living In Edmonton Alberta. Canada. After Seeing, And Looking At Ansel Adams Monochrome Landscape Work... Was All The Inspiration I Needed To Take To Monochrome Landscape....so All Of Us Monochrome Workers...not To Worry....they Got It Wrong Sixty Years Ago Diden't They....ps. I Havent Got Anything Like Ansel Yet.....but I Love Trying.....regards Tedward

false_Aesthetic
3-Apr-2007, 04:50
Hi,


I kind've think this topic has been beaten to death, then beaten down the street, then the guy that yells, "BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!!!" was beaten to death too.

But in case, we're not sure that b/w photo isn't dead or on its way out....

http://www.tipofthetongue.org/main.html?id=5

Marko
3-Apr-2007, 08:19
Hi,


I kind've think this topic has been beaten to death, then beaten down the street, then the guy that yells, "BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!!!" was beaten to death too.

But in case, we're not sure that b/w photo isn't dead or on its way out....

http://www.tipofthetongue.org/main.html?id=5

Indeed. It just so happens that that topic has also been beaten to dead and beyond in another thread running pretty much concurrently to this...

:D

Brian C. Miller
4-Apr-2007, 10:04
This topic has been beaten black and white. :D

Bruce Watson
4-Apr-2007, 10:27
This thread is over SIX YEARS OLD! Why can't it die???

Ron Marshall
4-Apr-2007, 10:55
This thread is over SIX YEARS OLD! Why can't it die???

This thread will never die because film will never die.

Ralph Barker
4-Apr-2007, 11:19
Actually, I think Tom dunked the database in selenium toner to make it more archival. ;)

Bruce Watson
4-Apr-2007, 12:09
Actually, I think Tom dunked the database in selenium toner to make it more archival. ;)

Wouldn't it be even more archival if the thread were locked? Dark storage and all that ;)

jazzypantz
12-Mar-2013, 11:12
This was recently posted on the rec.photo.darkroom newsgroup. It met with very e nthusiastic response there, so with the author's permission, I would like to rep ost it to the forum here.

From what I've read here recently, it seems that a lot of photographic companies have drastically reduced their commitment to black & white products. Most photo graphy is done in color, and black & white has survived mainly as an art medium. It looks like black & white photography as it exists right now might disappear altogether as companies decide that it is no longer cost-efficient to produce pr oducts for black & white photographers.

I would like to start a discussion about this topic to find out what other peopl e's take on this issue is. Do you think that black & white photography is going to disappear? If so, why, and if not, why not? If it does disappear, what will b e the alternatives for people who still want to shoot in black & white?

-- Scott Daniel Ullman

sdullman@i_hate_spam.stanford.ude

(Remove "i_hate_spam" and change "ude" to "edu" to send e-mail.)

I agree that black and white in photography still exists as a more "artistic" aesthetic, but only because with colour photography, you have a choice. However, there are still (and always be, imo) a large number of people who both enjoy/prefer shooting in black and white or simply appreciating black and white photography.

Many times, a black and white image is the only thing that will WORK aesthetically, whether it's a photo in a portfolio or a photo in a business's waiting area.

Then of course there are documentary-type photography that is meant specifically for documentation. These types of things are usually done in black and white, such as documenting a building for the Library of Congress, in efforts to get the building evaluated for demolition or preservation.

This can only be done in black and white.

For a number of reasons, both artistically and professionally, black and white will be around.
It's reminiscent of times ago - it's a classic aesthetic, it's a timeless aesthetic.

I believe it will always be around.

Leigh
12-Mar-2013, 11:32
Wow. An 11-year old thread. I think this sets a record. :D

- Leigh

Alan Gales
12-Mar-2013, 11:44
Well, Leigh. B&W survived for 11 years. Heres to the next 11 years! :)

Roger Cole
12-Mar-2013, 11:58
Yeah, holy necro-posting Batman!

I saw it and thought "WTH? color is in danger with Kodak on the ropes and Fuji cutting back, but black and white is in great shape with Ilford making their full line of films, their best papers ever, and plenty of great chemical supplies, Adox is coating excellent paper and maybe film soon, we lost Efke but Foma makes superb paper and, well, they make film, and..." then I saw the date.

Interesting how that played out, really.