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Keith Cocker
7-May-2008, 02:10
Hi,

I'm enjoying getting to grips with my Toyo Field 45A. Results from using its movements are a bit hit and miss at the moment!

I would value some reading recommendations - books or sites that might give me some guidance on using the cameras movements. I understand what the camera does in terms of movements. What I'm really after is some more detailed guidance on what I can use the movements for and what results they have.

thanks

Greg Lockrey
7-May-2008, 02:38
The Camera by Ansel Adams is a good starter book. It will give you the fundamentals of how and why in camera movements. This is probably the best site to get specific questions answered about large format. What I have garnered over the years as to the purpose of the movements is: have your back parallel to the work and lens tilted enough to the intersecting planes enough to maximize your focus. All other movements are done to exaggerate different effects. Which you will see in your view finder. ;)

steve simmons
7-May-2008, 04:37
Here are three books I usualy recommend.

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga
User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone
Using the View Camera that I wrote.

Try your library.

I generally use the back swing and tilt for shape and size relationship adjustments and the front swing and tilt for focus - to more closely align the plane of focus with the plane of the subject.

Rise and fall and shift, front or rear, are tools to help you select which part of the image circle you want to record onto the film.

steve simmons

Laurent
7-May-2008, 05:51
I really appreciated the article about the view camera, field and movements in a former issue of View Camera. I don't remember the issue # (it was the one containing also an article on Roy Stryker's photograph's collections, if that is of any help), as it was very simply said and very "results oriented". It's after reading (again and again and again and...) that I started having a feeling about how I should tweak my field camera to achieve what I want.

John Bowen
7-May-2008, 06:33
Keith,

All of the books Steve has recommended will help you READ about it....but the best advice is (after some reading) get out there and use your camera, use your camera, use your camera.
I was where you are almost 30 years ago and I can recall just how frustrating it was the first few times, but it's like riding a bike... after the first few times it just becomes second nature.

Have Fun!

John

steve simmons
7-May-2008, 07:07
I really appreciated the article about the view camera, field and movements in a former issue of View Camera. I don't remember the issue # (it was the one containing also an article on Roy Stryker's photograph's collections, if that is of any help), as it was very simply said and very "results oriented". It's after reading (again and again and again and...) that I started having a feeling about how I should tweak my field camera to achieve what I want.


January 07 was the issue date.

We have put this article up in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

It is called
Field Camera Movements.pdf

steve simmons

lenser
7-May-2008, 07:15
Hi, Keith.

If you can somehow find a copy of the old Zone VI catalog from the eighties, there is a comprehensive section on all movements and their effect from that camera. Most field cameras seem to share many basic traits, so this information may help with your questions.

Good luck.

Tim

Bruce Barlow
7-May-2008, 09:32
Go Mr. Simmons one further and try the front and rear swings and tilts, and each time you try something, make a negative or a Polaroid of each variation and compare them. If rear tilt makes things loom, how much compared to front tilt? Two pictures and you know the answer forever. Four pictures in total. A few minutes of time. A good investment.

Eric James
7-May-2008, 09:54
The exhaustive building block examples in the Steve Simmons book helped me to understand view camera movements when I was first starting out - these photos in conjunction with the naked Arca-Swiss illustrations in the Dykinga will serve you well.

Jorge Gasteazoro
7-May-2008, 09:56
The best book to learn about camera movements is "View Camera Technique" by Leslie Stroebel.

Bill_1856
7-May-2008, 10:19
DON'T, don't, don't, don't ever use movements on your camera unless they are needed! Their use is vastly overrated, and generally unnecessary -- perhaps a little rise or sift for buildings, sometimes (rarely) a little tilt for landscapes if there are no nearby objects which will be thrown out of focus.
(This is different than if you are in the studio, photographing an object which requires your view camera to be bent into positions like a pretzel.)

IanG
7-May-2008, 10:26
While I'll agree a book is useful, I think you can learn a lot more with a bit of hands on tuition.

It's far easier to demonstrate than it is to write about. You might look at the UK Large Format forum (http://www.lf-photo.org.uk/forum/), most of us (if not all) are also members here. There are a few LF users near to you who would probably help.

Ian

Leonard Evens
7-May-2008, 10:28
The previous recommendations for books to read are all good, but I would differ from Steve Simmons in that I would put his book first in the list, as an introduction to the subject.

You should also look at the material on focusing in the Large Format Website (lfphoto.info), in which this forum appears.

Before you get into tilts and swings, experiment with rise/fall and swing. Those are the movements that are most commonly used because you use them to determine the basic framing of the photograph and where the center of perspective appears to be.

It will take some effort to understand tilts and swings. You will see lots of discussion of the Scheimpflug Rule, but that is only one necessary element. The important principle is the Hinge Line Rule, and that is not discussed as thorughly. Merklinger goes on at great length about it in various of his publications, which are available on the web, and he has a really neat animation which helps you to understand it. The lfphoto.info site also has some information about it.

The hinge line helps, in particular, when you try to understand depth of field when there is a tilt or swing. The depth of field region forms a wedge starting at the hinge line. Once you have set the tilt/swing, if you focus by moving the rear standard, the hinge line stays fixed and the whole wedge swings about it. The Scheimpflug line, on the other hand, moves both horizontally and up and down. One important consequence of this is that you can't get much vertical depth of field close to the lens, so scenes requiring that are not amenable to improvement by the use of tilt/swing movements.

Kevin Crisp
7-May-2008, 10:48
Looking back over how I started with LF, about 18 years ago, I would have to say that I wish I had spent a couple hours with the camera next to a table, trying to maximize sharpness with a wide open lens focusing on small objects in different positions, then with movements plus stopping down. (A line of something on the left, on the right, a place mat from near to far, etc.) If I had done that up front I would have learned pretty quickly basic things it took me years to understand in the field.

Jason Rosinski
7-May-2008, 11:22
I'm seconding Leonard's suggestion to take a look at Merklinger's work.

I started LF photography a little over a year ago, and I thought I'd understood the Scheimpflug rule. But I incorrectly thought that the angles between the three planes were evenly split. This caused a number of misfocussed shots and frustration because I couldn't figure out what had happened. After I read Merklinger's text I understood how the focal plane rotates, which was completely non-intuitive for me.

Anyways, check it out. It may save you some unnecessary grief.

timparkin
7-May-2008, 15:51
Before you get into tilts and swings, experiment with rise/fall and swing. Those are the movements that are most commonly used because you use them to determine the basic framing of the photograph and where the center of perspective appears to be.


I think you meant to say "experiment with rise/fall and shift". I personally think that an understanding of tilt is fundamental to making the most of the large format camera although used without understanding can ruin many shots. Hinge line is the key to understanding though, I agree.


DON'T, don't, don't, don't ever use movements on your camera unless they are needed! Their use is vastly overrated, and generally unnecessary -- perhaps a little rise or sift for buildings, sometimes (rarely) a little tilt for landscapes if there are no nearby objects which will be thrown out of focus.
(This is different than if you are in the studio, photographing an object which requires your view camera to be bent into positions like a pretzel.)

I have to take a guess that most of your landscapes contain little close foreground and are mostly not 'intimate' landscapes. If you do use near/far compositions, tilt is indispensable, especially to allow you to use f stops of f/16 to f/22 where you are not affected by diffraction (most of my shots seem to be about f/22 1/3 ). When you are working with meters of a subject that has 3D shape to it, some combination of tilt/swing is typically essential to get a reasonable shape to the focus. It's a lot harder to understand than planar focus though so it's more likeley to get wrong. If you're a fan of Dykinga, Muench, Cornish, etc then you'll often find an advantage to be had in using tilt/swing in your pictures.

Tim

Alan Davenport
7-May-2008, 17:17
I'll "third" the recommendation for Merklinger's articles. On his website, he includes several animations that are excellent aids to understanding what happens with the different movements.

http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/index.html

Bill_1856
7-May-2008, 18:11
If you're a fan of 1)Dykinga, 2)Muench, 3)Cornish, etc
Tim

1) Nope, 2) Yep, 3) Who he?

timparkin
8-May-2008, 01:31
1) Nope, 2) Yep, 3) Who he?

UK Photographer - Have a look for a book 'First Light' or if you like you can look at his website (although it's not the best for browsing pictures - look at

http://www.joecornish.com/products/view_section.asp?sectionid=15

Tim

Jorge Gasteazoro
8-May-2008, 02:52
Well, I am going to have to disagree with the Merkingler hinge rule and it's utility, specially in the field. I can see where it is useful if you are doing table top, have all the control and time to do all the calculations, but in the field forget it! Besides, if you absolutely have to do this, buy a Rodenstock focus and dof calculator and will make it a lot faster.

I agree with Tim that the mark of a good LF photographer is one that knows how and when to use movements, both front and back. The best advice I can give to someone who is starting is that he/she needs to learn how to use them, but it does not have to be overly complicated and that the pictures they see in books where the camera is twisted into a pretzel are pure fantasy.

Bill_1856
8-May-2008, 05:57
One other thing: with most lenses you won't really be losing much to stop down to f:32 (hyperfokal distance for 135mm lens is 12'). Remember the West Coast photographers whose mantra was F:64 -- Adams, Westons, etc? They were referring to 8x10, and F:32 is pretty much the same optically when shooting 4x5.

Leonard Evens
8-May-2008, 09:57
I'm seconding Leonard's suggestion to take a look at Merklinger's work.

I started LF photography a little over a year ago, and I thought I'd understood the Scheimpflug rule. But I incorrectly thought that the angles between the three planes were evenly split. This caused a number of misfocussed shots and frustration because I couldn't figure out what had happened. After I read Merklinger's text I understood how the focal plane rotates, which was completely non-intuitive for me.

Anyways, check it out. It may save you some unnecessary grief.

Yes. The angle between the bounding planes is not bisected, but visually, there is something that is. Assume the camera back is vertical and look at the scene on the ground glass. In a single vertical plane parallel to the back, look at the highest and lowest points in that plane you want in focus. Ordinarily you want to place the exact plane of focus halfway between them.

And of course Tim is right. I mistyped. I meant one should first master rise/fall and lateral shifts before trying to use tilts or swings. In architectural photography, I almost always use a rise or fall, sometimes a lateral shift, and only occasionally a tilt or swing. In other kinds of photography, I almost always use rise/fall or shift to frame the scene before I even consider what I might want to do about tilt/swing. It also takes a while to master tilt swing, and it would be a shame to wait until you have before taking pictures.

Doremus Scudder
9-May-2008, 08:05
I wrote the article for View Camera magazine mentioned above (I'm glad many of you have found it helpful and have recommended it to others).

It is based on a visual approach using a field camera with limited movements and represents 25+ years of field experience. It is intentionally non-technical, since, like Jorge, I find that calculations using the Scheimpflug principle and the Merklinger hinge rules are just cumbersome in the field, as fascinating as they are, and as useful as they can be in other situations. (I do, however, recommend learning about them, since having a grasp of how they function is very helpful.)

Since some of you may be downloading my article from the View Camera web site, I would like to correct one error, graciously pointed out to me by Leonard Evens: In the illustrating the depth-of-field areas when tilting or swinging, I erroneously used a flared, trumpet-bell shape. The actual shape of the area is that of a simple wedge. However, I still believe the illustrations get the point across and are useful.

I often use movements in the field, for landscape as well as more abstract and intimate work, and find that practicing them till they are routined a real time saver (not to mention an effective hypertension treatment). I spent a lot of time trying to streamline and clarify the techniques I use for the article, so I will refer to it rather than giving any advice here.

Best and good luck,

Doremus Scudder