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argos33
22-Apr-2008, 21:24
I've got the LF bug and am thinking about building a ULF camera this summer, probably 16x20. The main two things I am concerned about are the cost and construction of the bellows and either buying or making a film holder. Does anyone have some good resources /recommendations for bellows material and/or construction? Also, do those of you making such cameras usually buy the film holder(s) and design the camera around them or make your own?

If any of you ULF users out there have advice for me I would be most obliged.

Evan

Jorge Gasteazoro
22-Apr-2008, 22:10
You should buy the holder (or make it first) and build the camera around it. There is really no standard for ULF sizes and they all make them a little bit different. I have used Sandy King's holders, Wisner holders and an antique holder that came with my Korona 12x20. I bought Sandy's holders and they were a bit wider and thicker than the Wisner holder, so I had to modify the Wisner to take them. Having said that his holders are good and reasonably pirced against someone like AWB who charges an arm and a leg.

I don't know about the Chamonix holders, you might want to contact Hugo and ask him how much they are.

Bottom line, get the holders and build the camera around it.

robert fallis
22-Apr-2008, 23:54
Enjoy makig your camera. here is a link to a bellows making page by Edward Hoover, which I use
http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/page2/page2.html

also have a look at Jon Grepsteds site http://home.online.no/~gjon/index.htm
trust these help

bob

GPS
23-Apr-2008, 05:24
You can happily use whatever film holder you have or want if you make the gg position adjustable...

steve simmons
23-Apr-2008, 05:30
Before doing this you shuld read the article on ULF film holders that was in View Camera in the January 08 issue. There were/are no standards for film holders larger than 11x14. If you get older holders made by different people/mfg's they may not be the same and will not fit the same in the back of the camera. Simply trying to adjust the position of the gg won't help..

steve simmons

GPS
23-Apr-2008, 06:12
Before doing this you shuld read the article on ULF film holders that was in View Camera in the January 08 issue. There were/are no standards for film holders larger than 11x14. If you get older holders made by different people/mfg's they may not be the same and will not fit the same in the back of the camera. Simply trying to adjust the position of the gg won't help..

steve simmons

Well, I didn't think somebody would like to build a camera for different film holder used at the same, sure. While it would be perhaps technically possible too (spacer frames), once he's got a film holder of some kind he can build the camera around it and adjust the gg distance (not necessarily the dimension, of course!) accordingly. That's what I meant but it was probably open to misunderstanding. A universal back camera? Possible, but a technical wierdo...

steve simmons
23-Apr-2008, 06:19
The problem is not the gg placement. The dimensions of the holders vary, the position of the locking ridge varies, etc. Again, I suggest reading the View Camera article to understand the problems involved. They are certainly not insurmountable but one does need to be aware.

steve simmons

Colin Graham
23-Apr-2008, 06:31
Holders aren't too difficult to make. Having the right tools certainly helps- especially a thickness planer for milling the parts to uniform widths and a mill for cutting the 1/32 darkslide slots. Some use 1/16 garolite to get around this problem- easier to find router bits and saw blades in this thickness, but it seems like the weight of the holders would get out of hand. If you do make them, make many...tooling setup is by far the most tedious aspect of construction. I posted a little of my experience over on APUG (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum147/33639-5x12-there-back-again-2.html#post604865), not very concise or thorough, but maybe it'll be of some help.

Jorge Gasteazoro
23-Apr-2008, 09:34
I forgot about the bellows. Aside from making your own, you can always wait around and see what is being offered on E bay. Many times there are bellows which came from process cameras that you can cut and glue to boards fitting the camera you plan to make.

You might also want to contatct Jim Fitzgerald in this forum, or look at his thread about the Mahogany camera he made, he should be a good source of information and ideas.

sanking
23-Apr-2008, 10:04
I've got the LF bug and am thinking about building a ULF camera this summer, probably 16x20. The main two things I am concerned about are the cost and construction of the bellows and either buying or making a film holder. Does anyone have some good resources /recommendations for bellows material and/or construction? Also, do those of you making such cameras usually buy the film holder(s) and design the camera around them or make your own?

If any of you ULF users out there have advice for me I would be most obliged.

Evan

Evan,

I will be happy to give you the dimensions of 16X20 S&S holders if you want to try to make your own.

We also have this size in stock if you are interested in acquiring one.

Just send me a pm and I will send you either dimensions or pricing information.

Sandy

argos33
23-Apr-2008, 20:30
Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. I will investigate further into making my own bellows while keeping an eye out on ebay. Sandy, if you could send me some pricing information I may be interested in buying one of yours. (Also sent a PM). I will make or buy the film holder first and design the camera to fit that as Jorge recommends. Does anyone have recommendations for the GG? Has anyone considered making their own via etching/abrasion?

Thanks again,
Evan

Jim Fitzgerald
23-Apr-2008, 20:32
Evan, I just finished building an 11x14 designed after the Wisner/Zone VI cameras. For this camera I was lucky enough to find a Deardorff back and the bellows off of e-bay. This made the construction much easier. I would suggest getting one of Sandy"s holders and build the back around it. I don't think you are going to find used 16x20 holders that often. The holders and the bellows if you have them made for you are the most expensive parts. For bellows material I think it is Porters camera that has the cloth you need. I forget what they call it. I had Jim at Western Bellows in California make the bellows for my 8x20 and he did a fine job. I built the back for my 8x20 and you "need" a holder to get it right. Trust me on this one I know from experience. There are many resources here on the net and I would be happy to answer any questions. I have posted shots of my 11x14 both here and on APUG. I would recommend that you decide on the style of camera you want to build and then try to find one you can study. For me it is all about seeing the thing. I used my Zone VI 4x5 as my guide and it really helped as did the JB Harlin website for pictures.

Jim

Colin Graham
24-Apr-2008, 07:06
I use aluminum oxide grit from gotgrit.com (http://gotgrit.com/index.php/cPath/2_7/) and a large flat element from a old 70-210 zoom to grind with. Any finer than 9 microns or so and the glass starts to get clear again. After grinding, I etch grid lines in the ground side with a ballpoint pen. I tried a utility knife but it flaked the glass out too much along the scribe line- the pen looks almost laser-etched. The grid is very fine and unobtrusive, but easy to see if you need it. Also, try grinding the off side of low glare glass- the acid wash side doesn't ghost or confuse the focus plane and the lack of reflections really makes focusing much easier.

As for bellows, a good how-to site is here (http://www.cyberbeach.net/~dbardell/bellows.html). And here is the perfect cloth for it at Porter's Camera (http://porters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PCS&Product_Code=221125&Product_Count=&Category_Code)

Jorge Gasteazoro
24-Apr-2008, 16:00
Here you go... a process camera bellows... it might work for you, and it comes with a lens.... :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-large-bellows-camera-dimentions-3-ft-x-2-1-2-ft_W0QQitemZ260232310625QQihZ016QQcategoryZ15248QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

argos33
24-Apr-2008, 19:27
Here you go... a process camera bellows... it might work for you, and it comes with a lens.... :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-large-bellows-camera-dimentions-3-ft-x-2-1-2-ft_W0QQitemZ260232310625QQihZ016QQcategoryZ15248QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Thanks Jorge, I currently have my eye on that one. Looks like competition might be fierce though. :)

Jorge Gasteazoro
24-Apr-2008, 19:45
Thanks Jorge, I currently have my eye on that one. Looks like competition might be fierce though. :)

Just place the bid you think you want to pay and cross your fingers. Remember, a bellows of this size will probably run 4 of 5 hundred dollars, so a bid of 150 to 175 is not out of line, since it also includes a lens. Nobody said ULF was cheap....and wait until you get the film sticker shock...lol.

Jim Fitzgerald
24-Apr-2008, 20:46
Evan, for the Ground glass check with Steve Hopff? I think it is under brilliant ground glass on e-bay. Got a great 11x14 and 8x10 from him. Great quality and service. There are some posts here somewhere regarding him.


JIm

argos33
25-Apr-2008, 00:26
Thanks Collin, we have a sandblaster in the metal shop that uses aluminum oxide I believe, I will check the grit on it. I will also email a few people (including steve, thanks Jim) about the GG to get some estimates. First I need to get the bellows and film holder taken care of though. One thing at a time...

Turner Reich
25-Apr-2008, 00:38
Step one: How "handy" are you?
Step two: What kind of tools to you have?
Step three: Do you have a design or plan for the model you are going to build?
Step four: How much time do you have to work on it?
Step five: How much money do you have to spend on the bellows, ground glass, wood, metal, fasteners, lens, film, film holders, glue, finish?

Think it though, you might find someone that has a camera like the one you want to build and see how it functions and get an idea of how it was made.

These cameras can turn out very crude and horrible to work with or they can be a piece of art.

argos33
27-Apr-2008, 22:32
Got it! $175 for bellows and a lens. Not bad considering the lowest bellows estimate I got (to be made) was $450 I think. I am going to start on the film holder and ground glass next.

Turner,
All very good points to consider. I grew up working in/around a cabinet shop and currently work as a tech/monitor for a metalshop on campus. I have a good friend that is a skilled machinist, and I can get free wood as well as metal. I would consider myself very handy with many resources available to build this camera (one reason I decided to make one!). I am still deciding on plans but wanted to get the bellows first.

I am curious, those of you who have made your own VCs, how long did you spend working on it? I have no time constraint and am going to take my time perfecting it, but am wondering if it is going to turn into a 3 year project...

Colin Graham
28-Apr-2008, 06:21
My camera and 8 holders took around seven weeks, but I had a trip coming up and was scrambling to get done. I was working my regular job full time, then in the shop until midnight every night of the week and all day on weekends. I finished the holders the day before the trip and was just able to test two exposures...Man was I tired when it was done. I slept the first two days of the trip in the car... But I did loose around 20 lbs! :-)

Jim Fitzgerald
28-Apr-2008, 20:10
I found that taking your time yields the best results, at least it did for me. Now remember I've only got hand tools, passion and some power tools to use in the apartment when I can work from home when most people are gone. When the passion was there I worked on my camera. The 8x20 1 1/2 years including the Walnut tripod I built. The 11x14 10 months and 14 days. The additional cameras are always faster to build.
Colin, I know what you mean about getting it done. I finished attaching my bellows on the 8x20 the morning of my trip to the Eastern Sierra for a photo workshop.

Jim

Murray
28-Apr-2008, 20:27
I saw a process bellows & lens on eBay. The seller couldn't be bothered to respond with any more info than the name & f-stops. No f.l. info so I lost interest. Then I realized it didn't need to be a very long lens for process because of the image circle at 1:1.

So, I too am wondering things about ULF. Is there a consensus on what is the most rigid/stable style of construction to deal with wind & vibration? I imagine the bellows is the biggest wind load, but is a monorail vs whatever the other types are called better in this regard?

I have only Crown/Speed Graphics, so mimicking those would teach me alot about hiding the guts, rigidity, and little movements. I have seen a friend's Zone VI 4x5 once, and recall a relatively heavy wooden 'base' when it's open.

I can envision a box structure to fold everything up into, but a good bit of that is more about storage than wind-resistance.

The other thing I've never really gotten much of a response on is whether there is a rule of thumb for how much rise & fall to allow for, relative to say the format dimensions of lens f.l. Obviously +/-6" would be rediculous on a 2x3 but I have no idea how to compare that to a 20x24 camera...maybe not enough...

does the angle of view of the lens play a role in how much movement is needed?


Thank you

Murray Leshner
Holland, MI

Jorge Gasteazoro
28-Apr-2008, 20:41
I found that taking your time yields the best results, at least it did for me. Now remember I've only got hand tools, passion and some power tools to use in the apartment when I can work from home when most people are gone. When the passion was there I worked on my camera. The 8x20 1 1/2 years including the Walnut tripod I built. The 11x14 10 months and 14 days. The additional cameras are always faster to build.
Colin, I know what you mean about getting it done. I finished attaching my bellows on the 8x20 the morning of my trip to the Eastern Sierra for a photo workshop.

Jim

Of ocurse, you gotta realize that Jim spent half of the times cited rubbing wood with wax... You need a gf Jim..... :D

John Kasaian
28-Apr-2008, 21:31
Just rent a U-Haul van and when nobody's looking jab a pinhole in one side of the box!
:D

Jim Fitzgerald
30-Apr-2008, 05:40
Jorge, trust me when I tell you I'm on the hunt for a pretty young thing I can use as a model. Hand rubbing with hot wax or oil is right up my alley! Polishing some skin instead of wood will be a nice change of pace!!

Jim

jongrep
17-Oct-2015, 22:58
Enjoy makig your camera. here is a link to a bellows making page by Edward Hoover, which I use
http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/page2/page2.html

also have a look at Jon Grepsteds site http://home.online.no/~gjon/index.htm
trust these help

bob

Please note that my website is moving. New URL: http://jongrepstad.com/

Jon Grepstad