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View Full Version : So what is an ISO 9001?



John Kasaian
16-Apr-2008, 14:03
Certain makers of sheet film "boast" (well, the outfits that sell their film boast) that ISO 9001 assures a high quallity product, yet some of the film from these companies have had (according to posters here and over at APUG) quality issues. So I'm wondering---what is ISO 9001? What does it guarantee---if anything? Are the alleged QA issues based in fact (I personally haven't had any problems with these films---am I just lucky? Should I be buying lottery tickets?) I figure someone around here ought to have the skinny on this.

Kevin Crisp
16-Apr-2008, 14:08
It is an international standards organization that hopes to ensure that product design and manufacturing are first rate. The organization does inspections, and the inspections are the real deal. A large focus of it is quality control or, as I believe they phrase it, "quality management." See:

http://www.iso.org/iso/management_standards.htm

Bruce Watson
16-Apr-2008, 14:08
http://www.iso.org/iso/home.htm

http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=21823

Jorge Gasteazoro
16-Apr-2008, 14:48
AN ISO 9000 and it's derivative certifications does not insure you will have error free production. It is a management methodology that documents all the steps in production (including QC) and that in case a defective item is found that are documented procedures to identify the where the flaw is occuring and what has to be done about it.

Pete Watkins
16-Apr-2008, 15:25
In the U.K. it's somthing that management achieve before they regress to the standards that are the companies norm. In short it's all B.S.
Pete.

Jim Jirka
16-Apr-2008, 15:35
A very heavy load on documentation for quality assurance, especially for those that are typically under staffed. :(

Or it is a higher ISO speed than 1600. :p

Paul Bujak
16-Apr-2008, 15:57
Basically, what Pete and Jim said. It's good for paper and binder companies, certification firms and pencil pushers. For the product? Well....

John Kasaian
16-Apr-2008, 15:59
I seeeeeeeee........thanks!

Greg Lockrey
16-Apr-2008, 16:13
Basically what Jorge said. It's a methodology to track screw ups but not necessarily correct them.

Ron Mowrey
16-Apr-2008, 16:20
One of the things about photographic manufacturing is that so few people understand it, it is hard for an inspector to tell what is going on. No company will allow an inspector from a competitor into their plant either.

So, this guy who knows nothing about photography walks in cold, and he can be told just about anything. Usually it is the books that they are interested in anyhow, so they look at the paper trails and analytical testing. Things like that.


Ron Mowrey

Nathan Potter
16-Apr-2008, 16:30
Jorges' comments are quite accurate. I've been involved in ISO certification and found a lot of resistance among workers in small companies to doing a thorough manufacturing process plan. You have to wring the process they are responsible for out of them, then get them to document it exactly, then make sure they do that part of the process exactly the same each time. ISO requires that the process variables be measured at critical steps and at a frequency that results in a trend chart over time of process consistency. If something is out of spec then an out of conformance form has to be generated to document what went wrong and what steps are required to fix it. Out of conformance better not happen very often. ISO officials do an onsite inspection periodically to insure that the manufacturer is following the process and procedures that they submitted as their manufacturing process.

Yes you can submit a loose process for what you are doing but then you risk losing customers due to your poor process control. But in a competitive environment a company will want to have a high degree of quality control if they are going to be very successful in the market place so typically management will push an ISO certification under most circumstances.

In general ISO certification does stand for a degree of quality control above that of no ISO certification. But it is also true that many companies without ISO certification produce more consistent product than those with.

Nate Potter

Michael Chmilar
16-Apr-2008, 16:30
Being ISO 9000 certified just means that the entire manufacturing process is documented, and auditable.

You could still be producing crap. But you know exactly how the crap is made, and can verify that the crap is made the way you intended.

Here is where it is useful: You want to contract for manufacturing from another party, possibly very far away from you. If they are ISO 9000 certified, you can send an auditor in, and he will be able to determine if the factory is doing something wrong (or fishy), ie. if they are manufacturing "extra product" to sell on a black market, the auditor will likely find extra source materials, more power usage, or something like that.

It doesn't provide much advantage to you as the consumer. It is really for business-to-business confidence.

Nathan Potter
16-Apr-2008, 19:25
Michael has an interesting and commonly held belief that even if ISO certified, a company can still produce "crap" if a "crap" process is what was certified. But there is also a caveat in this notion. Crap can seldom be produced consistently and the paper trail required by ISO certification requires (thru in process measurements) a consistency of process thru each process step. Thus the production of "crap" usually becomes transparent to the ISO inspectors by simply examining the paper trail. Of course some inspectors are more thorough and astute than others so the examination of the paper trail will vary somewhat. But as I said above, the production of crap in a competitive environment will eventually fail in the market place.

As Michael says above there is a big advantage of ISO certified manufacturing processes in business to business transactions. I've depended on the ISO certification in several instances of technology transfer.

Nate Potter

neil poulsen
16-Apr-2008, 20:02
I was trained as an ISO 9000 lead oddity. (I mean auditor.) Jorge et.al. explain it well.

I think of a company that meets the standard as set up well to establish a relationship with customers and suppliers. I think that companies set up this way are also in a better position to engage in self-improvement. There are other benefits.

Dirk Rösler
16-Apr-2008, 21:16
Crap can seldom be produced consistently

My contact sheets seriously challenge that assertion... :D

Jiri Vasina
16-Apr-2008, 22:52
A very heavy load on documentation for quality assurance, especially for those that are typically under staffed. :(
...


And now try and imagine applying this thing in a hospital, where a screw up is defined as any patient's complaint. Where do you end - treating the patient or filling out the papers?

Robert A. Zeichner
16-Apr-2008, 23:45
In my view, a method of changing a company from being outcome oriented to one that is process oriented. "The operation was done by the book and perfectly executed Dr. The patient just died"!

Mark Sampson
17-Apr-2008, 05:35
John, if you'd just submit to purchasing the high-priced stuff you wouldn't have to worry about the boasts of the second-rate manufacturers. I'm not objective, though; having worked for EK for 19 years, I'm sticking with the film made in my home town. Despite their idiotic marketing decisions, their product is still superior. I've tried British and ?european? films, and always go back to Tri-X Pan.

Nathan Potter
17-Apr-2008, 07:59
Dirk, very good - I find the same thing with most of my contact sheets! I'm contemplating getting my printing ISO certified!

Nate Potter

BrianShaw
17-Apr-2008, 08:07
In theory... doesn't ISO 9000 (or any other process documentation) theoretically embrase process improvement processes? That was my belief. Statistical process control, etc. should lead to the production of less crap as time goes on... in theory, of course.

Another important thing to remember is that many of these certifications are awarded at the corporate level. It does not necessarily mean that all units of the company are compliant.

BrianShaw
17-Apr-2008, 08:08
My contact sheets seriously challenge that assertion... :D

I, too, could qualify for a ISO negative-9001 certification!

John Kasaian
17-Apr-2008, 08:42
John, if you'd just submit to purchasing the high-priced stuff you wouldn't have to worry about the boasts of the second-rate manufacturers. I'm not objective, though; having worked for EK for 19 years, I'm sticking with the film made in my home town. Despite their idiotic marketing decisions, their product is still superior. I've tried British and ?european? films, and always go back to Tri-X Pan.

Mark,

I'll submit to the high priced film if the project demands it (really really demands it!) It is the high priced boxes (note the plural of "box") that I'm really ticked off about :rolleyes: But that belongs in a different thread anyway.

Personally I have no complaints with the Foma, Ilford or Efke films I have tried, but others here have raised concerns over QA. What I was curious about is what prompts such concerns even when the manufacturers are billed as having "attained the prestigeous ISO 9001?"

From what I've read here so far, film that is or isn't ISO 9001 dosen't have a meaningful impact on consumers anyway. My guess is that it is advertising "puff" from Freestyle.

I'm OK with that, as long as my negatives come out OK. That's what matters to me.:)

Jeffrey Sipress
17-Apr-2008, 09:29
My company went through the ISO procedures. Essentially, it states that you must have quality management processes in place and have a system that leads to continual improvement. More simply, it means that you state what you are going to do, and then verify that you did it. But most importantly, and more the reason for it, is that it created an industry of individuals and small companies that will handle the certification process for you for an extraordinarily high fee. Those are the people that benefit wildly. Not the customer.

Mark Sampson
17-Apr-2008, 09:48
John-
I don't disagree with you at all about EK's stupid decisions. I just prefer TXP and am reluctantly submitting to $1.00/sheet for 4x5. Your comments about advertising "puff" seem to be right on. May your negatives all come out OK, and may all your pictures be much better than that!
MS

John Kasaian
17-Apr-2008, 10:05
John-
I don't disagree with you at all about EK's stupid decisions. I just prefer TXP and am reluctantly submitting to $1.00/sheet for 4x5. Your comments about advertising "puff" seem to be right on. May your negatives all come out OK, and may all your pictures be much better than that!
MS

Mark,
I'm with ya about TXP! :)
Only shooting 8x10 that is $4 a sheet:eek:

Michael Chmilar
17-Apr-2008, 14:40
I didn't choose my words well. When I said the product might be "crap", I meant that it is fundamentally bad by design. With certification, you will do a very good, quality-managed job of manufacturing a poorly-conceived product.