Change to For Sale section

[Tom Westbrook]

In order to allow members in good standing to post classified ads for any type of photo equipment (LF and non-LF alike) and to decrease the danger of fraud, the moderators have made a change to allow access to the "For Sale/Wanted" section only to those who have been members for 30 days or more.

Members will be promoted to enable access automatically at the 30 day point without need to request it. New promotions are processed every 60 minute based on the date and time you joined the Forum, so if you joined late in the day the promotion will likewise happen late in the day.

Those who have been members for less than the 30 day limit will not be able to access posts in the For Sale section.

Also, newer members with an exiting FS/WTB ad where the item is still available will need to repost after the 30 day period when you have normal access to the section (these ads will be deleted by the moderators to avoid confusion).

The FAQ and section description will be updated to reflect this change.

[Stephanie Brim]

Am I understanding that we won't be able to *post* in the For Sale section but we will be able to *buy* things? Can you clarify?

[David A. Goldfarb]

Sounds like a good move. For those who don't know the history, the LF forum for many years had no classified ads and allowed no commercial activity whatsoever. Then the forum migrated to this format from earlier text-oriented layouts and added a classifieds forum. The new rule, I assume, is in response to complaints that there are drive-by posters who join only to post classifieds, usually for non-LF equipment, and they never really contribute to the community otherwise. A 30-day waiting period would serve as a deterrent to this sort of poster.

[Ben Chase]

Yep, I think this is probably a good move also.

[Ralph Barker]

Am I understanding that we won't be able to *post* in the For Sale section but we will be able to *buy* things? Can you clarify?

"New" members (those who have been on board for less than 30 days) won't be able to see the posts in the FS/WTB sub-forum, nor will they be able to post items for sale. The underlying idea being to limit the use of that section to people who are actually participating, rather than just coming here to sell stuff to the members.

Does that help, Stephanie?

[Stephanie Brim]

Yeah, thanks. However, kinda bad for me. I have a pretty good track record for participating in other places. ;) It's just inconvenient for those of us who are participating, but are new.

[Ron Marshall]

Will non LF FS postings be permitted, ie. MF and 35mm?

[Stephanie Brim]

Oh, and just for the record, I'm not really complaining. :p I'll be here longer than 30 days boring you guys with numerous questions as to why something doesn't turn out right. :)

[Glenn Thoreson]

Does this mean that poor fellow won't be able to find a cheap wedding photographer? :D

[David A. Goldfarb]

As a side effect, I suppose, one could also consider this an anti-GAS measure. Someone who just got a LF camera should spend at least 30 days asking questions and learning to use it before buying more stuff.

On the other hand, if that guy's mother in low dies within 30 days of joining the forum, no one will remember what she looked like.

[snuck]

Instead of 30 days, maybe you should make it 30 posts. This way they have to contribute...

[Greg Lockrey]

Instead of 30 days, maybe you should make it 30 posts. This way they have to contribute...
How about 30 days and 30 non-lounge posts?

And posts that are not large format don't count either.

[Mike Boden]

Overall, I think this is a great change to the forum.

[Ben Chase]

How about 30 days and 30 non-lounge posts?



LOL - hear hear!

[Kirk Gittings]

An intelligent decision. Thank you guys for all your hard word.

[Frank Petronio]

makes sense to me too

[hase]

jo, makes sense - but 30 post´s?
I´ll have to write more ;-)




edit:
18 posts @the moment...

[Anupam]

30 days OR 30 non-lounge posts. That would include folks like Stephanie, who have finally got an LF camera and have a rush of questions but after that might get impatient to browse the classifieds and buy some gear! Great measure anyway.

[BennehBoy]

Seems sensible, I was quite surprised when I was allowed to post a wanted thread as my first ever post! (I've found what I needed now though)

[Tom Westbrook]

We can consider adding a posts limit. I'd wonder if it would just increase the quantity of non-substantive posts, though, just to get past the limit. Lounge posts are not currently counted in member post counts, by the way.

As a side effect of this setup, we can remove access from established members to the FS/WTB section if it becomes necessary.

[Michael Jones]

We can consider adding a posts limit. I'd wonder if it would just increase the quantity of non-substantive posts, though, just to get past the limit. Lounge posts are not currently counted in member post counts, by the way.
How about 30 quality posts? Seriously, this time change alone may make a difference. Thanks for all your hard work on the forum for us.


As a side effect of this setup, we can remove access from established members to the FS/WTB section if it becomes necessary.

My wife thinks this is a good idea...

Mike

[Brian Ellis]

Good move, thanks.

[Jim Galli]

My only concern is that the new folks are also the ones looking to complete their outfits. Just viewing Will Whitakers 7X17 Philliips and I see PM sent by a guy and that was his first ever post. I guess no rule is perfect. If that guy turns out to be a legit guy looking for a camera that looks like a connection that would never get made with the new rules.

[Rick Moore]

We can consider adding a posts limit. I'd wonder if it would just increase the quantity of non-substantive posts, though, just to get past the limit. Lounge posts are not currently counted in member post counts, by the way.

"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Please do not encourage new members who want access to FT/WTB to post just to reach a minimum number. Quantity and quality are not the same thing.

I think the 30 day restriction is the right way to go.

[resummerfield]

"It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Please do not encourage new members who want access to FT/WTB to post just to reach a minimum number. Quantity and quality are not the same thing.

I think the 30 day restriction is the right way to go.I agree.

[johnwnyc]

Is it also the case that you've removed the For Sale postings from the "unified" view? If so, I would think that most people would find this inconvenient, as I'm guessing it's the view that is bookmarked the most.

I think the 30-day restriction is certainly the way to go.

John

[Brian Ellis]

We can consider adding a posts limit. I'd wonder if it would just increase the quantity of non-substantive posts, though, just to get past the limit. Lounge posts are not currently counted in member post counts, by the way.

As a side effect of this setup, we can remove access from established members to the FS/WTB section if it becomes necessary.

Please don't add a per-post limit. All that's going to do is cause people to quickly post 30 non-sensical or at least non-useful posts so they can sell something.

And BTW, it's time to say something few of us say often enough - many thanks to you and Tuan, Ralph, Ted, and anyone else involved in administering and running this forum. You all do a great job.

[jb7]

Hear hear-
(does this count?)

joseph

[Sheldon N]

My only concern is that there shouldn't be a # of posts requirement in order to view the FS section. There are a lot of members who lurk and never post much, but who may still want to buy something. I know when I've sold stuff here on occaision, many of the buyers were people with only 1 or 2 posts, even if they'd been members for years.

I do agree with the 30 day limit, though.

[Ole Tjugen]

Is it also the case that you've removed the For Sale postings from the "unified" view? If so, I would think that most people would find this inconvenient, as I'm guessing it's the view that is bookmarked the most.

I think the 30-day restriction is certainly the way to go.

John

I agree with John - 99% of the time, I use "Unified View". If the For Sale posts don't show up there...

Well, maybe it's a good thing. Perhaps I have enough lenses? :p

[Darren Kruger]

I like the 30 day limit before posting/seeing the For Sale section.

I would prefer that the for sale section be included in the unified view. If it was, people who didn't want to see it could change their options and not have it included.

Would it be possible instead of having the for sale section removed from the unified view for everybody just to change the default on the unified view option to have the for sale section selected not to view (but user changeable?)

-Darren

[Benno Jones]

As someone who's been coming here since before the website change, but has not many posts (and no more than 2-3 in the lounge anyway), I think the 30-day limit is much better then a post limit. I don't post often because I'm here to learn. Despite the fact that I've been an LF shooter for 7 years, my knowledge is a drop in the bucket compared to many here. 90% of the time I don't need to post a question because I can find the answer by searching the forums. I post an answer on the rare occasions when I have the knowledge and no one else has already answered. I post images in the image threads hoping for some feedback, and I've posted one item for sale (unfortunately unsold so far).

To be honest, a post limit smacks of snobbery to me, something which I can't recall seeing on this site before.

[SAShruby]

I agree with John - 99% of the time, I use "Unified View". If the For Sale posts don't show up there...

Well, maybe it's a good thing. Perhaps I have enough lenses? :p

I second to that. Let's leave "For Sale" section if Unified View is chosen.

[Chuck Pere]

I suppose it's a good idea but my personal experience is contrary. When I finally wanted to sell my 85 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo I knew I'd have a hard time finding an interested buyer. Local ads and Ebay auto both cost cost a fairly large part of the asking price. Note I had not found Craigslist at this time. So I went to the Turbo Dodge forum, signed up and placed an ad. Sold it immediately. I felt it went to a person who really wanted it and I got a fair price. I had no other interest in the forum but I feel that they benefited by my placing a fairly rare item for sale there.

[goamules]

30 days may keep photo items going to users, not speculators. I suppose capitalism prevails, and most sellers want the highest price for their item. But as a user/buyer (only occasional seller) I prefer to have a few "privileges of membership" on user sites such as hoping to get a good deal instead of fighting the bidding wars with rich collectors.

Have you ever wondered where some of the big lens sellers on Ohboy get them? I'd hate to have it easy to lurk in user boards and get em for a good price, then jack them up on the auction site. Soon folks decide to become collectors, seeing all the activity. Prices rise. Today I noted a 7 1/4 " Verito that sold for a few hundred, then appear right back weeks later with a $900 buy it now with a big lens seller. I personally wouldn't feel right scooping up something on a board just to sell.

I've also seen businesses begin to load user sites with their retail sales items. Is this bad or good? I don't know, but again if I go to a forum, I assume sale items are put there by members, not some business that wants to reach a wider audience and generate higher profit.

It's a good idea, but I acknowledge it's not ideal for a seller, first time or oldtimer, or a new user wanting to find an item as they first get into the hobbie.

[drew.saunders]

Is it feasible to do set a different post/view limit? 30 days to post, but maybe 5-10 days to see? That would encourage the new folks who want to stick around, while reducing the spammers and whatnot.

[QT Luong]

I am against a post limit. I think if someone participates only when he has a different and useful perspective to add, as opposed to for instance "Couldn't agree more", it does take a while to accumulate 30 posts.

[BrianShaw]

I am against a post limit. I think if someone participates only when he has a different and useful perspective to add, as opposed to for instance "Couldn't agree more", it does take a while to accumulate 30 posts.

Couldn't agree more.

(did I get posting credit for that?) :D

[neil poulsen]

Is it also the case that you've removed the For Sale postings from the "unified" view? If so, I would think that most people would find this inconvenient, as I'm guessing it's the view that is bookmarked the most.

I think the 30-day restriction is certainly the way to go.

John

I would suggest that it makes it more difficult to effect the 30-day restriction, if the For Sale/Wanted threads are included in the Unified View. Should we prevent less than 30-day members from seeing the Unified View as well?

From the beginning, it's always been a strong value that the LF forum be non-commercial. We added the For Sale/Wanted Forum at the request of users. But, it's been grouped in the Community forums, specifically to keep it separate from the core LF forums. Excluding the For Sale/Wanted threads from the Unified View helps to preserve this important value.

Of course, the For Sale/Wanted threads can be seen by greater than 30-day members in the same-named forum.

[SAShruby]

Is Lounge section off from Unified View as well?
Why?

[BarryS]

I'm not sure I understand this change. Has there been a running problem with fraud? As a moderator on a very large forum, I've grappled with similar suggestions, but looking at the forum stats-- an open classifieds section drives a lot of traffic to a site. Many users will only come to sell or buy, but a number of users will stay and end up contributing to general forums. A restricted classified section will have fewer buyers and sellers--making it more difficult to buy and sell equipment--which I think is a minus for long time members. Taking the classifieds out of the unified view is a real inconvenience and will further starve off the classifieds.

I came here as a new user and ended up buying a lot of gear from long time members. Isn't that a positive thing? It was good for them and good for me. I can more easily understand a rule to keep classifieds to primarily large format and large format-related gear. I realize it's a gray area and it does take some moderation to run the classified ad forum. I'd be happy to help moderate if you need extra help.

We already have a good fraud deterrent-- having the post count visible. This is a very reliable gauge for trustworthiness. The actual level of fraud is usually very low, but some people will take the extra precaution of not dealing with low post-count users.

[EuGene Smith]

Dang! I bought an 8x10 camera plus some parts and accessories for it from established members, and then I gave away some un-needed film and a few plate holders to other folks. Even if I fly the coop now, I will hardly be leaving any wreckage or grieving widows in my wake.

Oh, well, I'm a hillbilly and we grouse a lot . . . but I do understand.

Hey, folks, be nice to me and don't sell anything for a couple weeks until I can get back into the marketplace with my next GAS attack!!

EuGene

[Tom Westbrook]

For those who want a "Unified View" to include all forums, you can use this URL

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?do=getdaily&days=30

to create a link for yourself in your browser (change the days number to adjust how far back to display). Make sure you right-click the link above and copy the URL to the clipboard and then paste it into your browser bookmark/button--if you click on it, the site converts it to another URL with a limited lifespan.

BTW, users who can't see a forum/section in the regular view won't see it anywhere, including in the Unified view. You can test that by using our site as a logged off user.

[mccormickstudio]

As a new-joiner myself (okay, I've been occasionally lurking without joining for a couple of years) I certainly don't mind the 30 day wait to participate, but I think it would be a benefit to the site to let newcomers see the WTD/FS section. I think it's an incentive to hang around and become more active.

Another thought about the WTD/FS section - is it possible to let the originator of the post close their own thread? This would be a nice way to communicate that the deal is done.

Thanks, Craig

[Ralph Barker]

- is it possible to let the originator of the post close their own thread? This would be a nice way to communicate that the deal is done.


Sellers are encouraged to post a final follow-up indicating the item has been sold.

[Mark Carstens]

My only concern is that there shouldn't be a # of posts requirement in order to view the FS section. There are a lot of members who lurk and never post much, but who may still want to buy something. I know when I've sold stuff here on occasion, many of the buyers were people with only 1 or 2 posts, even if they'd been members for years.

I do agree with the 30 day limit, though.

My sentiments mirror Sheldon's. 30 day limit...good. Number of posts threshold...not so much.

Thanks for taking this step in the right direction...let's give it time to see how things plays out.

[Darryl Baird]

This is very helpful for those, like me, who tend to check quickly in the morning before running out the door... thanks. I can only sit and read posts at night, after ALL the good deals are gone. Being in the eastern time zone has some disadvantages too...but this is something I appreciate, Tom.


For those who want a "Unified View" to include all forums, you can use this URL

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/search.php?do=getdaily&days=30

to create a link for yourself in your browser (change the days number to adjust how far back to display). Make sure you right-click the link above and copy the URL to the clipboard and then paste it into your browser bookmark/button--if you click on it, the site converts it to another URL with a limited lifespan.

BTW, users who can't see a forum/section in the regular view won't see it anywhere, including in the Unified view. You can test that by using our site as a logged off user.

[John Schneider]

Looks like someone's already found a way to breach the 30-day waiting period:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=35836

Such a deceptively simple way around that I hadn't thought of it...

[vann webb]

The vast majority of posters here are extremely well behaved in comparison to other forums. I hope that the for sale section will remain, and that posters will behave themselves. I think that they will. As a photographer, I'm sick of losing my freedom to people who vandalize and destroy things, resulting in my lack of access to areas that I have roamed freely throughout my life. I can buy my needs on Ebay, but it's more than that. Nothing irritates me more than giving in to the worst in human nature. There are enough good folks here to make it work and weed out any prospective bad apples. JMHO.

[Rob Champagne]

would it be possible to allow deletion of fs / wtb ads.
I know it can be done within 1 hour and that they get deleted after a month anyway, but if you've sold your item, its pointless being left in the fs forum for any longer.

[Keith Tapscott.]

would it be possible to allow deletion of fs / wtb ads.
I know it can be done within 1 hour and that they get deleted after a month anyway, but if you've sold your item, its pointless being left in the fs forum for any longer.
Maybe contacting one of the moderators through a PM which shows a link to your ad would be the best way.

[drdave427]

My only concern is that the new folks are also the ones looking to complete their outfits. Just viewing Will Whitakers 7X17 Philliips and I see PM sent by a guy and that was his first ever post. I guess no rule is perfect. If that guy turns out to be a legit guy looking for a camera that looks like a connection that would never get made with the new rules.
My 2 cents -- I joined to get all the info I could on LF -- My daughter and I are thinking of diving into this format - (she is already an experienced , published photographer in the digital world) but I'm just a hobbyist. My knowledge search was to include prices of what LF items cost and what is available. I was a little disappointed to see I could not access the stuff for sale but I can read and learn for 30 days before seeing what is for sale . I can already see there is a wealth of info from expirienced LF photographers and I have a lot to learn !! Thanks to all who make this information available.

[sidmac]

I though that was the rule when I signed up nearly a year ago. What's the big change I'm not seeing?

[Kirk Gittings]

There is no big change. This is a two year old thread.

[John Powers]

My 2 cents -- I joined to get all the info I could on LF -- My daughter and I are thinking of diving into this format - (she is already an experienced , published photographer in the digital world) but I'm just a hobbyist. My knowledge search was to include prices of what LF items cost and what is available. I was a little disappointed to see I could not access the stuff for sale but I can read and learn for 30 days before seeing what is for sale . I can already see there is a wealth of info from expirienced LF photographers and I have a lot to learn !! Thanks to all who make this information available.

Three other good sources:

Completed auctions for specific items on eBay. Registered users can access completed auctions going back thirty days.

KEH.com, a large vendor of used photographic equipment. Search for an item of interest and see what they are asking often at several levels of condition.

APUG.org has a classified section that is searchable.

Or be patient for thirty day reading informative posts. LF is a contemplative sport.

John