Old color paper - still good?

[Jim Graves]

I've found a lot of forum info on dated B&W paper ... but very little on color. With the enlarger I just got came a bunch of Kodak Ektacolor Edge 8 (16x20, 11x14, 8x10) of unknown age and storage. The boxes are intact (1 of the 11x14 boxes is unopened.) I don't print color but it seems a shame to toss what I would estimate is 75 16x20, 75 11x14, and 175 8x10 still in their boxes and black plastic bags if there is any chance someone could use it.

[Nick_3536]

Needs a test really. Is it's RA-4? I thought Edge was only a consumer paper and didn't come in sheets.

[Jim Graves]

Yes, it is RA-4.

[Greg Lockrey]

It's been awhile (about 12 years) since I printed any color in the wet lab but paper didn't age well at all.

[Ginette]

I bump this very one year old topic as it is the only one talking about Ektacolor paper.
I have a also a old bunch of Ektacolor paper, even oldest as it is Ektacolor 74RC paper dated 1980!! (before the RA-4 process), so I think that actual color processing cannot be really usable.
Can this paper can be treated in b&W chemistry !!?? maybe to serve as paper negative as it is panchromatic. Other suggestion for alternative processes or usage?

[Mark Sampson]

You can try it but don't expect much. I think fog will be your big problem- 29 years of unknown storage will most likely have killed it.

[Gene McCluney]

Your old Ektacolor 74RC paper is useless. Color paper, either EP-2 or RA-4 ages very poorly. I don't think you can expect much in developing this in b/w chemistry, but you can give it a shot and see.

[Ginette]

Your old Ektacolor 74RC paper is useless. Color paper, either EP-2 or RA-4 ages very poorly. I don't think you can expect much in developing this in b/w chemistry, but you can give it a shot and see.

Yes it was EP-2 process in thoses years. I even don't remember about !
In fact my darkroom was abandonned from the 1990 :o but I wish to start again.
So I can expect some results (in theory) from regular b/w chemistry? without the EP-2 bleach step ?

[dsphotog]

Even if the paper was still good, you need the bleach step to remove the unused/undeveloped dyes.
Without it the image will be at best, barely visible.
So, no the b/w proccess is not compatible with that color paper.

[Ginette]

Even if the paper was still good, you need the bleach step to remove the unused/undeveloped dyes.
It make sense but as I'm not an expert in chemistry, what could replace the EP-2 bleach and what could be the total treatment sequence?

---------
Oups you add some lines. So you tell me that b&W developper and fixer will not do the job even a bleach step is added ?

[Gene McCluney]

Even if the paper was still good, you need the bleach step to remove the unused/undeveloped dyes.
Without it the image will be at best, barely visible.
So, no the b/w proccess is not compatible with that color paper.

There are no visible dyes in unprocessed EP-2 or RA-4 color paper for prints from negatives. The dyes form as a part of the color development process..there are only dye couplers in the paper. The couplers react with the color developer to "form" visible dyes in proportion to the exposure, along with the silver image. If you do not use a "color" developer then no dyes are formed. The Blix removes the silver image so all that remains is the dye image. "IF", and it is a big "IF", you were to develop color EP-2 or RA-4 paper in common paper developer such as Dektol, and fix in common b/w paper Fixer, there would be only a silver image formed. Whether this image is usable is open to debate, as I haven't tried it. If you are going to experiment and try color paper in b/w chemistry, you should be aware that color paper is sensitive to all colors of light, and must be exposed and processed in darkness..no safelight suitable for b/w paper will work for color paper.

Perhaps you are thinking about Cibachrome/Ilfochrome where the dyes are all complete before exposure and processing, and the processing step destroys the dyes in proportion to the image being developed.

[dsphotog]

Sorry if my response was confusing.
Old color paper isn't a bargain, even if it's free! To avoid total waste, I would use the back for note paper.

If I wanted to print with modern color neg. (RA4),I would use fresh paper (8x10 is about 37 cents/ 16x20 $1.75) Cheaper than good b&w!
The biggest expense is the chemistry,for that the best bargain is from Freestyle.

[Nathan Potter]

As Gene says above, the bleach bath converts the silver formed by the first developer to a silver halide which can be subsequently removed in a fixer. Were you to use the EP-2 or RA-4 type material for B&W only you must preserve the metallic silver reduced in the first developer by NOT using the bleach. However because there are color couplers in the three silver layers , each containing the proper chemistry for producing a color dye upon reaction with a color developer (often N N dialkyl-p-phenylenediamine or near derivative) these couplers will remain in the film emulsion and mask and mute the remaining silver. A purely B&W application would be a poor choice. Insofar as the durability of the silver halide starting emulsion is concerned I would expect its longevity would approach that of any standard silver halide B&W emulsion, subject to unknown degradation due to the presence of the color coupler chemistry that is present and the ever present fog effects. The actual color couplers are organic molecules that loose organic constituents in the form of gas during the reaction in forming visible dyes. The loss of such gas simply from standing dormant over time is one factor in loss of color saturation during aging. Diffusion within the emulsion as well as slow chemical reaction are other factors in degradation, both accelerated with heat. This will render any color application you may have pretty useless. IMHO what remains of a color image would also be drastically shifted in color balance due to the differential change in the chemistry of each layer.

Were you to use the material for B&W only you would need to find a "bleach" that would remove the dye coupler precursor materials without affecting the silver formed in the B&W developer.

Of course its always fun to experiment if you have the time.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I've found a lot of forum info on dated B&W paper ... but very little on color. With the enlarger I just got came a bunch of Kodak Ektacolor Edge 8 (16x20, 11x14, 8x10) of unknown age and storage. The boxes are intact (1 of the 11x14 boxes is unopened.) I don't print color but it seems a shame to toss what I would estimate is 75 16x20, 75 11x14, and 175 8x10 still in their boxes and black plastic bags if there is any chance someone could use it.

Jim, fix one or two of the sheets and use it for the final support for carbon transfer. I believe it should work.

Jim

[Ginette]

Thanks all for your chemistry expertise !

... Insofar as the durability of the silver halide starting emulsion is concerned I would expect its longevity would approach that of any standard silver halide B&W emulsion, subject to unknown degradation due to the presence of the color coupler chemistry that is present and the ever present fog effects. The actual color couplers are organic molecules that loose organic constituents in the form of gas during the reaction in forming visible dyes. The loss of such gas simply from standing dormant over time is one factor in loss of color saturation during aging. Diffusion within the emulsion as well as slow chemical reaction are other factors in degradation, both accelerated with heat. This will render any color application you may have pretty useless. IMHO what remains of a color image would also be drastically shifted in color balance due to the differential change in the chemistry of each layer.
Were you to use the material for B&W only you would need to find a "bleach" that would remove the dye coupler precursor materials without affecting the silver formed in the B&W developer.
Of course its always fun to experiment if you have the time.
Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Yes, experiment can be funny but my conclusion is that the medium will not be great. First it is RC paper and then it will be less stable that his already poor caracteristics.


Jim, fix one or two of the sheets and use it for the final support for carbon transfer. I believe it should work.
Jim
In the same way of thinking, this will be poor application but old Fiber base paper can be recycled this way.