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View Full Version : Wide Angle Lenses and Movements Possible



audioexcels
7-Apr-2008, 04:53
Three questions:

For those that use a wide angle lens and are shooting interiors or want to emphasize the forground of a landscape/rock/etc. but are using a lens that doesn't have much coverage to begin with, how do you approach the situation?

As an example, take a 65mm on a 4X5, with a maximum of only 170mm's of IC.

1) What do architectural or shooters that use a lot of movements do in these situations where a very wide lens is wanted to be used, but very little movements can be used due to limited IC?

2) How often do people that use such extreme focal lengths (anything under a 90mm and excluding the Schneider 72XL) even use movements at all or even wish they could have more movements?

3) How many mm's of IC is considered to be enough for those that want to have good movement potential? This question can considered regardless of whether or not it is a wide angle lens. Is there any sort of general law/rule to follow for those that want to know they will not run out of coverage or even a rule to follow to be sure the movements one wants to be using or attempt to use can be done based on the data for a given lens and the format it will be used on?

jb7
7-Apr-2008, 05:20
I think the important point is that the Super Angulon XL's all have a similar angle of view, and the potential for movements is related to your image size-
The 72mm will give ample movements on 4x5, as will the 90mm, and if you're using it to extreme, great care should be taken with objects towards the edge of the frame.
Using a 47mm, even with a centre filter, movements are limited to a half an inch on 4x5, so almost none-
I have an old 65mm f/8 super angulon too, and it just barely covers 4x5, I think-
its been such a long time since I've used it-

I think the best way to look at it is that the size of the image changes as you change focal length, giving an opportunity to crop a different 4x5 with each focal length-
as you reach maximum angle of view for the format, with the 47mm (or 58mm) for example, there simply isn't any further to go-
and you're left with an axial shot-

If you need more than 120º, you're probably going to end up in fisheye territory-
and I've never really felt the need myself, so I can't really help...

joseph

Steve Hamley
7-Apr-2008, 06:01
To emphasize a foreground, use back movements, Back swing and tilt require no extra IC over what's required to cover the format. Architectural photographers typically do not use back swing and tilt because of that "emphasis"; they tend to use more front movements, which will require greater IC.

1) They position the camera higher/lower left/right rather than using front rise and shift. Ladders are frequently used with tall tripods.

2) I use an 80mm Schneider quite frequently - I don't consider it extreme, but with short lenses, you're frequently bellows-limited (as with the Schneider on an Ebony field camera with standard bellows) unless you have a bag bellows. I wish I had a bag bellows sometimes, but its just something extra to carry and fool with. I also use a 55mm Apo Grandagon, and don't usually wish for any extra coverage except that sometimes the lens is difficult to get centered on field cameras (47mm, 65mm, etc) and some vignetting occurs. Depends on your camera of course, and how you're using it.

3) Depends on how you're using it. No.

Steve

audioexcels
7-Apr-2008, 07:34
Thanks guys. That was what I had figured. I know I like to play around with movements to get interesting perspectives, but from my experience using mild wides, well, even longer than the 80mm (90mm), I don't find much of a use for the front standard movements. One nice thing about having the Arca Swiss is that ability to make very simple/basic movements on the rear. I'm very much so looking forward to getting my camera sometime in the future when it is completed with an 8X10 "standard".

I asked these questions as I'm trying to figure out the best lenses to chose and start off shooting with. I considered the Nikkor 150SW which I may post in a different thread, but it's like a 4X5 shooter wanting to use the Sironar 360mm lens on a light cam. My camera will be about 6lbs and having 2.3lbs of metal/glass doesn't sound too pretty;)! I do like the 400MM IC it has, but I think I can live with shooting the formats inside the 8X10 that I plan to do in order to still have some movements available for the Nikkor 120SW. I will be shooting 6X10 so the Nikkor should have plenty more movement than what it does having to cover that extra 2" horizontal section.

Thanks for the posts so far and hopefully more can add their own experiences and how one approaches the lens selection per se, with respect to format of choice. I will need basically about 288mm's of IC that I have calculated. So a 210 plasmat would even work, but it would be nice, if choosing a 210, to have something that can provide more than the typical 210 can. I'm also looking to stay kinda wide, though I do like the idea of the two lens spread=Nikkor 120SW and Fujinon 240 or similar lens.

Don Hutton
7-Apr-2008, 08:45
...I don't find much of a use for the front standard movements. If you're photographing architectural subjects, as a general rule, you should be using front movements - not rear movements. Take a look at a book like Stroebels - it has a huge amount of valuable information and examples about the effects of all movements. Essentially, tilting the film plane around (swing and tilt) creates distortion which detracts from the geometric integrity of subjects. This is not generally a big factor in nature photography where subjects tend to be irregular, but with architectural photography, it's important.

audioexcels
7-Apr-2008, 11:09
If you're photographing architectural subjects, as a general rule, you should be using front movements - not rear movements. Take a look at a book like Stroebels - it has a huge amount of valuable information and examples about the effects of all movements. Essentially, tilting the film plane around (swing and tilt) creates distortion which detracts from the geometric integrity of subjects. This is not generally a big factor in nature photography where subjects tend to be irregular, but with architectural photography, it's important.

Thanks Don. Do you have a specific book by Stroebels in mind?

Don Hutton
7-Apr-2008, 11:16
Thanks Don. Do you have a specific book by Stroebels in mind? The View Camera - Leslie Stroebel - http://www.amazon.com/View-Camera-Technique-Leslie-Stroebel/dp/0240803450/ref=sid_dp_dp

D. Bryant
7-Apr-2008, 11:40
This is not generally a big factor in nature photography where subjects tend to be irregular, but with architectural photography, it's important.

It is important as Don said and once you understand the effects of moving the back with very wide angle lenses it can be put to creative use. But be careful, if not done well it can cause distortions which may be difficult to see on the ground glass. It all depends on what your aim is.

Most of the time rear movements with wide angles are used to distort the size of fore ground objects.

Don Bryant

audioexcels
7-Apr-2008, 20:02
The View Camera - Leslie Stroebel - http://www.amazon.com/View-Camera-Technique-Leslie-Stroebel/dp/0240803450/ref=sid_dp_dp

Thanks Don. I need to check the book I have around but I doubt it is a Stroebel book. I think I have a Simmons book, though I'm pretty certain I saw the Stroebel book (more like an 80's edition, though it did lay out the primary basics/fundamentals just fine) in the library.

I will likely get the book. Thank You for the recommendation.

audioexcels
7-Apr-2008, 20:05
It is important as Don said and once you understand the effects of moving the back with very wide angle lenses it can be put to creative use. But be careful, if not done well it can cause distortions which may be difficult to see on the ground glass. It all depends on what your aim is.

Most of the time rear movements with wide angles are used to distort the size of fore ground objects.

Don Bryant

Hey Don,

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

I wanted that paper you had, but I became busy and didn't get back in time to see it was already gone. I did have a very strong curiousity about you having a favorite paper that you use now over any of the others. I kinda got a bit curious in it because if you had about 5? different types of paper that you "had" used, and now you have one that just does it, it is likely going to do it on a universal scale, meaning, I and about any other but the very niche/select types will like it. Do you mind telling me the type of paper? It's OT, but thought I'd do a quick asking;).

Thanks Don!

scott russell
10-Apr-2008, 09:19
what is IC?

Eric Biggerstaff
10-Apr-2008, 09:27
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