Creo Eversmart Pro, to buy or not to buy?

[Juergen Cullmann]

I asked these questions in the scan hi end group too, but I thought Creo Users are reading in this group too (Ted Harris, Sandy King..)

I am offered a Creo Eversmart Pro (not II). The scannner ist offered
by a company which is servicing Creo Scanners in Germany. The scanner
is in a working condition. the sales person says, the diagnostic
program is showing no faults, which means, that all parts are working
within the Creo specifications.
The scanner was preowned by a pre-press company. I suppose it was in
heavy use. The price will be 2000 Euro (about 3000 $)without any
warranty. A 2nd scanner for spare parts is included also the software
and a calibration strip. Would you buy this scanner at the given price?

Currently I own a Howtek D 4000 and a Microtek Artixscan 2500, both
with Silverfast. Would you sell these or do you see any advantages
in keeping them, especially the Howtek because of ist higher
resoulution? Or ist the Creo a substitution without disadvantages?

I am doing mainly b+w negs from 120 up to 8x10 inch. Sometimes colornegs.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Jürgen / Germany

[Peter De Smidt]

HiJürgen,

Are you unhappy with the scans from your D 4000?

[Juergen Cullmann]

No, I am satisfied with the scanner , when it´s working. Sometimes the Howtek offers banding when scanning with 4000 dpi. While Hamamatsu is offering pmts at reasonable prices -the blue one needs to be replaced- no one here in Germany can repair the Howtek or can change the pmts.

The company which is offering the Creo is a well known service company for creo scanners.

Jürgen

[Peter De Smidt]

That does sound better from a service angle. Does the included software allow 16 bit per channel files?

[sanking]

I asked these questions in the scan hi end group too, but I thought Creo Users are reading in this group too (Ted Harris, Sandy King..)

I am offered a Creo Eversmart Pro (not II). The scannner ist offered
by a company which is servicing Creo Scanners in Germany. The scanner
is in a working condition. the sales person says, the diagnostic
program is showing no faults, which means, that all parts are working
within the Creo specifications.
The scanner was preowned by a pre-press company. I suppose it was in
heavy use. The price will be 2000 Euro (about 3000 $)without any
warranty. A 2nd scanner for spare parts is included also the software
and a calibration strip. Would you buy this scanner at the given price?

Currently I own a Howtek D 4000 and a Microtek Artixscan 2500, both
with Silverfast. Would you sell these or do you see any advantages
in keeping them, especially the Howtek because of ist higher
resoulution? Or ist the Creo a substitution without disadvantages?

I am doing mainly b+w negs from 120 up to 8x10 inch. Sometimes colornegs.

Your help is very much appreciated.

Jürgen / Germany



I think for 2000 euro the EverSmart Pro is a very good buy, if working well and with the software and calibration slide.

However, I am not sure as to the anticipated use. If for 35mm and MF negatives or slides the Howtek D4000 should give better results, especially if you are able to save files in high bit. That assumes a perfectly working Howtek D4000, of course.

If your major use is for 4X5 and larger negatives the EverSmart Pro wins hands down, even with the 8-bit save limitation of the EverSmart Pro scanning application.

Please feel free to contact me by pm if you have other questions. I own an EverSmart Pro and am very familar with its capabilities vis-svis other high end scanners.

As an all-around scanner for 35mm to LF the EverSmart Pro would be hard to beat at 2000 euros.

Sandy King

[Ted Harris]

To add to Sandy's comments. You'll have a faster workflow with the Eversmart than you have with the Howtek. You may have a better shot at replacement parts. Make a comparison if you can of scans from your 4000 and the Eversmart. The 4000 may do better with 35mm but you should check. From 120 to 8x10 the Eversmart is abetter choice than the 4000 IMO.

[audioexcels]

I have seen Cezanne Elite Scanners in Europe for about the same price or even lower. I think it is possible to find a better deal, even possibly finding an iqsmart or Creo pro II.

It is not a bad deal at this very moment in time since a Creo Jazz+ is going for over $2000USD on Ebay right now. At the same time, in recent enough months past I have seen a few Jazz scanners go in past go for $1200 max. I have also seen the IQ2, Creo II, etc. scanners go for $3000 with everything in perfect condition with all software.

IMHO, it is entirely dependent on the market and right now it seems not many of these nicer flatbeds are showing up, so anytime even an "ok" (Jazz+) one does, it is receiving a good bit of attention. Catch some when the market is shifting interest and you can land a far superior machine for the price you are willing to pay now for wait for that exact same scanner to show up for 1000EUR max. I have seen a couple go in excellent condition for $800-$1500 maximum prior to this LF interest that seems to have spread over to Fleabay.

Patience and personal financial conditions are your best answers. Financial conditions meaning you have a lot of money and may consider even getting a nice condition scanner such as the one you are considering, but at a cheaper price due to an issue? and send it in to have it upgraded to the II version. Or patience to wait until the higher end scanner at a better price shows up. I.E. A Cezanne Elite for say, 2000EUR would not be unreasonable even at this point in time. The IQ's will be the tougher ones to find.

Not exactly a flatbed, but you could probably negotiate pricing here for this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140219883321&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

[audioexcels]

I think for 2000 euro the EverSmart Pro is a very good buy, if working well and with the software and calibration slide.

However, I am not sure as to the anticipated use. If for 35mm and MF negatives or slides the Howtek D4000 should give better results, especially if you are able to save files in high bit. That assumes a perfectly working Howtek D4000, of course.

If your major use is for 4X5 and larger negatives the EverSmart Pro wins hands down, even with the 8-bit save limitation of the EverSmart Pro scanning application.

Please feel free to contact me by pm if you have other questions. I own an EverSmart Pro and am very familar with its capabilities vis-svis other high end scanners.

As an all-around scanner for 35mm to LF the EverSmart Pro would be hard to beat at 2000 euros.

Sandy King


Why would the Howtek be superior for the smaller formats but inferior with the larger formats? You have also stated in past that 35mm-MF is inferior to dedicated film scanners by which a drum scanner should be competitively equal to a dedicated film scanner, if not better. Why would you recommend the scanner as an all-around scanner?

Only curious because if this is true, I would consider this option one day when I have the luxury to do so, have a flatbed of this type or better to scan all types of film in spite people saying digital has film beat up to medium format (that 35mm is dead in spite tons of people continue to shoot it over digital).

[sanking]

Why would the Howtek be superior for the smaller formats but inferior with the larger formats? You have also stated in past that 35mm-MF is inferior to dedicated film scanners by which a drum scanner should be competitively equal to a dedicated film scanner, if not better. Why would you recommend the scanner as an all-around scanner?

Only curious because if this is true, I would consider this option one day when I have the luxury to do so, have a flatbed of this type or better to scan all types of film in spite people saying digital has film beat up to medium format (that 35mm is dead in spite tons of people continue to shoot it over digital).

The Howtek D4500 will scan at 4000 spi, and you can save in RGB high bit. The EverSmart Pro will scan at a maximum optical resolution of 3175 spi and you can only save in 8-bit. The extra resolution plus the ability to save in high bit gives the Howtek an advantage for 35mm and MF negatives, IMO, though in fact most negatives don't really have more than 3175 spi of real information.

For LF I would prefer the EverSmart because in practice one would rarely ever need more than 3175 spi, and the flatbed is easier to use than the drum scanner.

Hope this answers your question.

Sandy King

[Ted Harris]

I have seen Cezanne Elite Scanners in Europe for about the same price or even lower. I think it is possible to find a better deal, even possibly finding an iqsmart or Creo pro II.

It is not a bad deal at this very moment in time since a Creo Jazz+ is going for over $2000USD on Ebay right now. At the same time, in recent enough months past I have seen a few Jazz scanners go in past go for $1200 max. I have also seen the IQ2, Creo II, etc. scanners go for $3000 with everything in perfect condition with all software.

IMHO, it is entirely dependent on the market and right now it seems not many of these nicer flatbeds are showing up, so anytime even an "ok" (Jazz+) one does, it is receiving a good bit of attention. Catch some when the market is shifting interest and you can land a far superior machine for the price you are willing to pay now for wait for that exact same scanner to show up for 1000EUR max. I have seen a couple go in excellent condition for $800-$1500 maximum prior to this LF interest that seems to have spread over to Fleabay.




In this instance your analysis of the market, IMO, is far from accurate. eBay is not a bellweather for used high end scanners for several reasons:

1) The majority of high end scanners available on the used market come either from equipment brokers or private sales from labs and pre press operations.

2) you can't determine condition by what the seller says. I have spoken with two different repair facilities and they both estimate that approximately three times as many major repairs are required for eBay purchases as for machines acquired elsewhere.

3) To keep things in perspective, €3000 for Jazz+ is a little more than 10¢ on the dollar. Sure you can shop and shop and sometimes get lucky but the vast majority of the time you get what you pay for.

[Ted Harris]

Not exactly a flatbed, but you could probably negotiate pricing here for this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140219883321&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

It's highly unlikely you could do any negotiation on this one IF it is as described. The current version of this scanner, the ICG 369 sells for a bit under $100 with all the bells and whistles and its big brother, the 380 for even more. The last time I saw a factory refurbished 350 the price was in the $30K range.

Again market realities are not reflected by eBay.

[sanking]

In this instance your analysis of the market, IMO, is far from accurate. eBay is not a bellweather for used high end scanners for several reasons:

1) The majority of high end scanners available on the used market come either from equipment brokers or private sales from labs and pre press operations.

2) you can't determine condition by what the seller says. I have spoken with two different repair facilities and they both estimate that approximately three times as many major repairs are required for eBay purchases as for machines acquired elsewhere.

3) To keep things in perspective, €3000 for Jazz+ is a little more than 10¢ on the dollar. Sure you can shop and shop and sometimes get lucky but the vast majority of the time you get what you pay for.




Ted is spot on with his comments about ebay purchases. I have bought two older professional quality scanners on ebay and both arrived not in working order. In one case (EverSmart Pro) I was able to make the repair myself, with help from a technician who figured out the problem and sold me a part. In the other case (Leafscan 45) I could not get the scanner to work and wound up buying one locally from someone who had it set it up and working. Not a total lost since I kept the one bought on ebay for parts if necessary, though fortunately the one bought locally has been working great for several years.


If you see a high end flatbed or drums scanner on ebay with the comment that the item is sold "as is" I would suggest you start running right away and don't look back.

Sandy

[audioexcels]

In this instance your analysis of the market, IMO, is far from accurate. eBay is not a bellweather for used high end scanners for several reasons:

1) The majority of high end scanners available on the used market come either from equipment brokers or private sales from labs and pre press operations.

Is this an issue? If it is a private sale from a lab that properly maintained the equipment, why would buying something the OP is considering buying any different?

2) you can't determine condition by what the seller says. I have spoken with two different repair facilities and they both estimate that approximately three times as many major repairs are required for eBay purchases as for machines acquired elsewhere.

So a seller that provides a 90 day warranty or even a 6 month warranty, squaretrade, and any other forms of warranty is not a condition to feel safe about? I can understand an auction that says, "runs a fine pass, seems to work well, in excellent condition, but sold as-is" is asking for it. I'm certain if a seller doesn't want to get into a dispute with Paypal and lose out big time, they will go the length necessary to assure the buyer the product is a-ok. Out of curiousity, if one buys a refurbished machine, is the entire machine parted out and re-built with brand new parts and pieces to ensure the buyers is getting a brand new machine?

3) To keep things in perspective, €3000 for Jazz+ is a little more than 10¢ on the dollar. Sure you can shop and shop and sometimes get lucky but the vast majority of the time you get what you pay for.

I agree and disagree with you. I agree that on a whole, your points are valid in terms of used market goods sold (on a whole). But if you are critical about the specifics and know precisely what you are getting into, you can know how to find a good deal on a machine prepared to last the length of time these machines are meant to last before it may use a checkup. A final option is to have the buyer/seller agree to have the scanner shipped to the maker, if possible, or a highly certified and experienced technician and let them have at it for a week, pay him/her a decent amount for his/her time to do the evaluation and summarize what the person is looking at if they are intending to buy the machine.

[audioexcels]

Ted is spot on with his comments about ebay purchases. I have bought two older professional quality scanners on ebay and both arrived not in working order. In one case (EverSmart Pro) I was able to make the repair myself, with help from a technician who figured out the problem and sold me a part. In the other case (Leafscan 45) I could not get the scanner to work and wound up buying one locally from someone who had it set it up and working. Not a total lost since I kept the one bought on ebay for parts if necessary, though fortunately the one bought locally has been working great for several years.


If you see a high end flatbed or drums scanner on ebay with the comment that the item is sold "as is" I would suggest you start running right away and don't look back.

Sandy

This is what I am saying. You go to the place you will be getting it from. When I reference to that ICG 350i, I think/hope I mentioned to go in person and proceed from there. The cost to ship these machines is an arm and a leg and I only look for ones that are local enough to me if I am considering one. Otherwise, yes, I agree with Ted and you that "unless" there is a contract of agreement where the machine can be checked by a technician or one has a sufficient grace period. Buy an extended warranty from a place such as tradesquare if they are legitamate or another type of company is, and will in fact fix the machine if after that grace period it suddenly poops out and needs to be fixed.

[audioexcels]

It's highly unlikely you could do any negotiation on this one IF it is as described. The current version of this scanner, the ICG 369 sells for a bit under $100 with all the bells and whistles and its big brother, the 380 for even more. The last time I saw a factory refurbished 350 the price was in the $30K range.

Again market realities are not reflected by eBay.

I just asked if the person would permit an stringent evaluation by a manufacturer/certified tech to ensure it is in fact in proper working condition. I also asked if there is any form of warranty or ability to ensure it is properly working and not being stuck with a dud.

Again, Germany is driving distance or a cheap flight to UK. If this scanner goes for 30K, it surely doesn't hurt to ask questions. If the seller will not budge, that's that...next...

[audioexcels]

The Howtek D4500 will scan at 4000 spi, and you can save in RGB high bit. The EverSmart Pro will scan at a maximum optical resolution of 3175 spi and you can only save in 8-bit. The extra resolution plus the ability to save in high bit gives the Howtek an advantage for 35mm and MF negatives, IMO, though in fact most negatives don't really have more than 3175 spi of real information.

For LF I would prefer the EverSmart because in practice one would rarely ever need more than 3175 spi, and the flatbed is easier to use than the drum scanner.

Hope this answers your question.

Sandy King

Ahhhh...okies. That makes plenty of sense. So it obviously comes down to is how clean one file is vs. the other at the given SPI. I'm sure others would argue about numbers, but I think you have seen enough scans from different drum scanners and your own personal work with the Eversmart Pro to know that you are getting the amount of information that is on the sheet.

Are there universal numbers that people consider as size of film goes up? Say a 4X5 image at 3000 true SPI is all that is needed. What then would be the case for 5X7/8X10/11X14/etc. etc.?

Thanks Sandy

[sanking]

Are there universal numbers that people consider as size of film goes up? Say a 4X5 image at 3000 true SPI is all that is needed. What then would be the case for 5X7/8X10/11X14/etc. etc.?




No universal numbers.

If possible, I scan at a resolution that will extract all of the information in the negative so I can archive the file and never have to scan again. For MF that is usually possible because a scan of a 6X7 cm negative at 5080 spi, RGB 16 bit, gives a final file size of about 900 mb. My system can deal with that.

However, for 4X5 and larger negatives it may not be possible to pull all of the information from the negative because of the enormous file sizes.

For example, a scan of a 5X7 color negative, 16 bit RGB at 2540 spi, gives a final file size of about 1.3 gig. My computer starts to breath heavily in processing files of this size. And 2540 spi may not pull all of the information from the negative. But if I increase the resolution to 3175 spi the resulting file will be close to 2 gig. Definitely too big for my system to handle. So for archiving I will have to wait for faster processing equipment, which should be here soon.

Sandy

[Ted Harris]

What Sandy says except that I can handle slightly larger files (~2GB) and from 4x5 or larger that gives me all I (think :)) I will ever need. BTW when you get to this size you start running into all sorts of software driven limitations too

[audioexcels]

What Sandy says except that I can handle slightly larger files (~2GB) and from 4x5 or larger that gives me all I (think :)) I will ever need. BTW when you get to this size you start running into all sorts of software driven limitations too

That's not a good thing for people scanning larger film (software limitations). What can a person do if scanning 8X10 film in order to get the necessary information off the film? A case for one to shoot no larger than 5X7 from Sandy's standpoint is that the file from only that size starts to hit the problematic areas of the software. I have read in many areas where people like to shoot 8X10 or larger for their large enlargements vs. the smaller sizes due to the amount of information of the film, but I'm now curious how one can do it aside from the traditional method which wouldn't be as good as scanning a smaller sheet of film unless one knows the darkroom better than a top of the line scanner and photoshop tools!

As a side note, here is what the person selling the ICG said:

"Hi, we remarket assets from companies that have ceased trading - this was picked up from a company last month and was being used up until the time we collected it - they showed us it working at the time of collection. You're welcome to have a certified/trained technician to test it prior to purchasing - its something you would have to pay for. We offer 30 days warranty on all equipment."


This seller seems very fair considering most I have talked to are in the take it or not mind-set, or rather, selling it as-is type of basis which I entirely agree with you Ted and Sandy that this is a complete "lets hope it works" type of deal. It's called taking a risk and hoping your luck is good 9 times out of 10 or even better than that! For the majority, as Ted said it, I definitely agree.

I would consider something like this ICG only because of the response which is uncharacteristic of the usual Ebayer and is very nice of him/her. First, the prospective buyer can assume a contract where they can have a technician, maybe even have ICG (aren't they in UK?) do a thorough checkup, and if all is good, you can be very happy having a solid machine. If not, then you have just spent money to have it checked out and that money is either valueable or a waste depending on how critical you are about buying a used machine. IMHO, if it costs 30K for a refurbed ICG 350, and ICG tested it for say, $300 and found it to be a flawless unit, you just saved some serious money. If they say it will need this or that fixed, you can negotiate with the seller and tell them if they will split the fee (if reasonable) since they did grant a 30 day warranty and stated it is fully functional in spite ICG says otherwise, then you may end up with an ICG fixed up machine that could otherwise be considered refurbished in a way.

Just my own opinion about all this stuff. But as I say, this seller seems like a rarer type, and there is always the risk of having to pay money to a certified tech or ICG to have it inspected only to learn you wasted however much they charged to inspect a faulty unit. Having that paper that shows it is say, mostly good but will need such a part replaced and will cost such and such an amount which is very reasonable to have fixed, would be a very good way to get a 30K machine for potentially 1/6th, or even 1/5th that price. So many factors involved when it comes to something that one will be using for an extended period of time, has a high cost involved, and literally "forces" a wise buyer to consider everything involved before jumping into something and ending up with a deadweight worth nothing but $3000 of lawn space...

In the case with Sandy's Eversmart Pro unit that needed a bit of help, it turned out very good in the end, though...perhaps lucky as well since it could have easily been a machine like the dead Leaf. And though pricey, he (Sandy) can pay to have the unit upgraded to the Pro II which will scan the 120 stuff making travelling with only the Mamiya (granted weight is substantially less than the Nagaoka) worth the upgrade alone. Heck, why not even have the ability to have the Mamiya along with the Chamonix ULF cam for trips:)...

In a sense, this Eversmart Pro in Europe makes most sense especially if considering going with the Pro II upgrade in future. This would then make this scanner up there with some of the best and for not that much of a cost in the long run.

On a final final note before you guys fall asleep;)...I only posed the ICG because it is an example of a drum scanner that in the world of scanners is, from what I can recall, a superior scanner to the Eversmart Pro and more on the level of the Cezanne/IQ machines? It was only mentioned as a way of saying that it is possible to find high level scanners from Ebay, in spite the truth is you have to be very careful as most are just sent from wherever and sold off by massive wherehouses in whatever condition which is usually "Unit powers on, runs through the cycle, and appears to be working ok...but sold as-is". That spells trouble IMHO and is typical of the majority of what you will find on Ebay or even locally, etc.

Cheers and sorry for all the writing.