I take it we can no longer buy a Chamonix for $700?

[audioexcels]

Incredible what has been taking place on Epay. Good news for Chamonix (exposure to the world) and owners of the 4X5 camera (can sell for almost $300 more than originally spent for a "used" camera!), but a bit deflating to the actual value of the camera and likely all that Chamonix/Hugo/etc. did to get these out to people for what I believe was $600 when the dollar was a bit higher. Dunno what else to say but that I hope this is a nice sign of greater things to happen for Hugo and the team working for the beautiful wood crafting factory of Chamonix.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chamonix-4x5-Field-Camera-4-x-5-Ebony-Phillips-Canham_W0QQitemZ180229852480QQihZ008QQcategoryZ15247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Past Auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chamonix-45-N-1-4x5-Camera-and-Accessories_W0QQitemZ200209028295QQihZ010QQcategoryZ15247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Fortunately with the pricing on the other larger formated Chamonix cameras, it seems the 4X5 is starting to get set for a $1000 price point, which would be in line with the rest of the line of Chamonix cameras, though I and I'm sure some others would still like to be able to see it at $700 (current price?) range.

Cheers All and hope everyone else doesn't flee for fleabay with their own Chamonix!

Best wishes to all the success of Chamonix and the person that really has made it all happen for this board and now the Epay world.

Many Thanks Hugo for bringing along such beautiful products and happy to see all the past anti-China/Chamonix trolls gone now that this proven product is real and is succeeding very well!!!:)

[Greg Lockrey]

There is no rhyme nor reason on flea-by as to what one can get for your treasures.

[Clay Turtle]

I had not looked recently but I did check out the price on larger formats than the 4x5 and I thought they were way out of line (over the top) price wise?

[Don Hutton]

I believe was $600 when the dollar was a bit higher.
I bought mine as part of the December order - the camera in the USA was $699+$75 shipping - landed cost of $774 - or not much change out of $800. By the time you've paid Ebay and Paypal, you'd be "making" about $100-120 - that's not exactly a wonderful return. Given that is is a personal item, that "profit" is also taxable, so you'd only be about $70-80 to the good....

Additionally, and I'm sure that plenty of other Chamonix owners feel the same way, I wouldn't sell mine for less than $2000 - it's just that sort of value. At $2000 you'd be hard pressed to find the same feature set. I'd say anything under $1000 is a bargain.

[audioexcels]

I bought mine as part of the December order - the camera in the USA was $699+$75 shipping - landed cost of $774 - or not much change out of $800. By the time you've paid Ebay and Paypal, you'd be "making" about $100-120 - that's not exactly a wonderful return. Given that is is a personal item, that "profit" is also taxable, so you'd only be about $70-80 to the good....

Additionally, and I'm sure that plenty of other Chamonix owners feel the same way, I wouldn't sell mine for less than $2000 - it's just that sort of value. At $2000 you'd be hard pressed to find the same feature set. I'd say anything under $1000 is a bargain.

Very true Don. Agree with everything regarding price.

If one wants a "used" camera, such as a used cam found on Epay, an Arca Discovery w/bag bellows+something else one could sell basically for $200 went for $650ish=A $450 cam if they sold the extras that came with it. So for $450, you get a lot better camera IMHO, than the Chamonix in terms of versatility/capability especially with movements.

An Arca F-Classic with Orbix just sold for $1700 and it's questionably up there with the very best cameras in the world, period.


There's also used Canhams, Shen, Wisner/Zones, Ebonys, etc. going for $500-$1500 respectively.


For a new camera, one cannot argue the value of the Chamonix over any of these others and any camera on the market at its new/retail price.

[audioexcels]

I had not looked recently but I did check out the price on larger formats than the 4x5 and I thought they were way out of line (over the top) price wise?

It's a huge discrepancy between the 4X5 price and the larger format based camera price because they have been able to manufacture a lot more of the 4X5=cuts down on the cost of building one here and one there of the larger format based camera. One can definitely argue the pricing is far too high vs. the 4X5, but there is not the abundance of say, 8X10 or 5X7 buyers as there is 4X5. If they had even 2 4X5's for every 1 8X10, I would assume pricing for the 8X10 would be much more in line with the 4X5 pricing...I have not compared the ULF pricing so I am not sure about what is considered good/bad value above the 8X10 offered.

I know the 5X8 seems/seemed like a high price, but there's only a few ever made, where there's tons of 4X5 cameras made...same for the 4X10 camera. A few more of them made than the 5X8, but not many more. That they cannot sell these "niche" cameras means the pricing either has to be taken down in order to clearance them out, or they continue to sell at a price that "seems" high, but is not that high relative to how many are in existence and have had a specialized "niche".

IMHO, if Ritter did a 5X8 or 4X10 camera for $1500-$1800, that would be a way better value. Ritter has pricing similar to any of these smaller manufacturers where he can produce say, that 8X10 that people purchased from him on the forum as a group buy and get a decent discount OR pay the full price which is significantly higher since he is only doing one, two, five of them.

If these types of manufacturers were larger and could manufacture in greater quantities, the pricing would be more in line with other companies.

[Brian Ellis]

"Incredible what has been taking place on Epay. Good news for Chamonix (exposure to the world) and owners of the 4X5 camera (can sell for almost $300 more than originally spent for a "used" camera!), "

As they say in the ads, "not exactly." First, I paid right at $800 for the camera including shipping from China. It sold for $950 and change. Subtract the Pay Pal commission of $32, the ebay costs and commission of whatever they come to - say $50 - subtract the difference between the shipping cost I quoted ($15) and the actual shipping and insurance cost ($30), and the profit is a whopping $50 - $75 or so.

Second, while the camera was technically a "used" camera, for all practical purposes it was brand new since I owned it for only four months and its "use" consisted of four sheets of film shot in doors . Except for being on my tripod long enough to make those four photographs, the camera never saw the light of day in the brief time it was "used." And from the buyer's standpoint, he has the use of this ""used" camera for 3-4 months that he wouldn't have if he waited until the July shipment.

So while the buyer paid a small amount more than he would have paid if he waited until July, I think he got a fair deal and I'm happy to have recovered my cost and made a small profit - though I would have been happier if I had made the $300 profit you mention. : - )

[Kuzano]

last eBay 4X5 brought $970. I had just gotten a quote on the 4X5 when that listing showed up.

I always tell students in the eBay class to abandon logic or reason regarding final sales, but to hold caution close.

I suspect we are seeing one of the major considerations of price or bid decision on eBay. Newbys, or uninformed buyers ratcheting the price up at the end of the auction. The large format market is fairly active and prices are high for some items. I think this means a couple of things. There is an interest that may be growing in the market. Also, people aren't doing very good research. They see a Walker or an Ebony go for $2000 plus and this Chamonix looks very good at under $1000.

It's really difficult to find pricing on the Chamonix in the marketplace. I didn't even know about the camera until I joined this forum. If I were trying to introduce a new large format camera, I'd probably go exclusively to specific large format forums AND eBay. Display and magazine advertising rips the profits out from under moderately priced items.

[ericantonio]

It's really difficult to find pricing on the Chamonix in the marketplace. I didn't even know about the camera until I joined this forum. If I were trying to introduce a new large format camera, I'd probably go exclusively to specific large format forums AND eBay. Display and magazine advertising rips the profits out from under moderately priced items.

I just browsed the newest ViewCamera magazine at the local bookstore and there is a new article about the new Chamonix 45n1

[Aahx]

There is also the factor of time... some may feel it is worth to spend $100, $200, or even $300 more for getting the camera "NOW" rather than waiting 6 months for delivery. The old adage... "Time is Money" can be viewed with many perspectives. Also to some dropping even 5k or more for a camera might be just pennies to them... where as to others it is totaly out of reach. I personally am fine with waiting 6 months for the one I ordered in Feb. But then again... I still have my 20 year old Wista to play with until it gets here. Others that are excited about getting into large format photography may be less inclined to wait for one and feel the additional money is worth the time not waiting for a camera. I just recently had a customer of mine who after explaining a bit about LF photography to her, and now just wants to dive into it head first. There is a certain level of excitement some get (I had it myself back in the late 80's) when they are realizing the potential of shooting large format. Especially when all they have known before were point and shoots, and small format SLR's. After looking through a groundglass for the very first time and seeing what tilts and shifts can do. Just remember that feeling from when you first did that, then take that excitement to ebay and you can understand why prices can be higher than one expects on some items.

[mccormickstudio]

I think the price on ebay reflects a demand greater than the current supply. It's easier and safer (at least perceived to be) for a buyer to buy through ebay. Combine that with waiting time, I can certainly see why the prices are running up. Take a look at the bid history for the $970 from ebay -- It looks like the buyer was willing to go much higher!

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=200209028295

I'm interested to see where the Phillips Explorer 8x10 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phillips-Explorer-8x10-field-camera_W0QQitemZ220219880161QQihZ012QQcategoryZ15248QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)goes on ebay. I made an offer (what I thought was a good offer - almost the original price) to the seller before he decided to list on ebay. With Phillips out of production, it will be interesting to see if this fine camera becomes more or less valuable. Coincidentally, when my Phillips offer was rejected I ordered an 8x10 Chamonix with an additional 4x10 back. Tracking tells me it just landed at JFK and needless to say I'm very anxious!

[audioexcels]

Coincidentally, when my Phillips offer was rejected I ordered an 8x10 Chamonix with an additional 4x10 back. Tracking tells me it just landed at JFK and needless to say I'm very anxious!

To all those that posted, thank you for your very informed and excellent posts.

You definitely made the correct decision IMHO. Sure, a Phillips seems to be in high demands since they are what now, a rare banquet camera since they are no longer in business, or at least for now aren't??? Zone gets drilled by other cameras on the used in terms of price to performance goes. I have seen used Zones sell for $500 or so but they are, in spite of weight, in an entirely different league than the Tach/Wista/etc.

Chamonix is already considered an updated Philips, so again, no consideration to which choice should have been made. I'm going to guess that Phillips goes for an absurd price. Chamonix plainly looks a LOT better IMHO than the Phillips, though I think the Compact looks quite sexy and perhaps better than either the Explorer or Chamonix. As far as I'm concerned, with wood type cameras, the only ones I'd consider if I was going to buy a larger cam is the Chamonix, Ritter, or another company with a nice design like these two that are both simplistically intuitive, rigid, light, and gorgeous.

[Ted Harris]

Sure, a Phillips seems to be in high demands since they are what now, a rare banquet camera since they are no longer in business, or at least for now aren't???


RH Phillips is still very much in business, where did you get the idea they weren't? Dick is cutting way back on camera building to do more shooting and printing of hi own work but he hasn't stopped building cameras. He is concentrating on 8x10 and 4x5 right now, at least that is his current plan.

[Don Hutton]

Sure, a Phillips seems to be in high demands since they are what now, a rare banquet camera since they are no longer in business, or at least for now aren't???The term banquet camera refers to format type - panoramic and usually specifically 8x20 or 12x20, although others fall into that definition too. They were used for taking "banquet portraits" which typically required a panoramic style negative which was then contact printed. Almost none of Dick Phillips' cameras fit the definition of "banquet camera" - very little of his production was ULF and while Dick did made a couple of 12x20s and a few 8x16s - those haven't been produced for many years. By far the greatest number of his production has been 4x5 and 8x10 - and these even under the broadest possible definition, are definitely not banquet cameras. If you want one of his 4x5s, give him a call and I'm sure he'll have one for you or you can get onto the list for the next run.

You need to be careful about posting incorrect information on this forum - most folks do searches here when they want information and bad information and inaccuracy simply cause this amazing resource to decline in usefulness.

[audioexcels]

The term banquet camera refers to format type - panoramic and usually specifically 8x20 or 12x20, although others fall into that definition too.

Incorrect. A Banquet Camera "is" referred to a type of camera, not "format type". The name stems from this "type of camera's" (not format) used in the past at banquets/weddings/events/etc.

They were used for taking "banquet portraits" which typically required a panoramic style negative which was then contact printed. Almost none of Dick Phillips' cameras fit the definition of "banquet camera" - very little of his production was ULF and while Dick did made a couple of 12x20s and a few 8x16s - those haven't been produced for many years.

So what is it then, a camera or a format?


By far the greatest number of his production has been 4x5 and 8x10 - and these even under the broadest possible definition, are definitely not banquet cameras. If you want one of his 4x5s, give him a call and I'm sure he'll have one for you or you can get onto the list for the next run.

I never said his cameras are banquet based cameras. I said the going rate today for one of his cameras on Fleabay is what these old Banquet cameras go for. I should have been clearer by defining the point that one rarely sees a Phillips 8X10, but when one shows up on Ebay, people go nuts over it like they do when a nice Banquet camera comes on auction. I was comparing the rarity of the Phillips with the rarity of a nice Banquet camera since both are "niche" products in the world of Ebay where billions of items are auctioned in a matter of days?

You need to be careful about posting incorrect information on this forum - most folks do searches here when they want information and bad information and inaccuracy simply cause this amazing resource to decline in usefulness.

Ted is correct that I was not informed about Phillips still making cameras. I assumed from the information gathered that he had taken a break and was not making cameras at this time, hence posted a bit too errant a response relative to Dick's present and future propositions in the LF world.

I also did not know about any other camera types that he made (ones you mentioned), though it isn't relevant to this or any thread since those cameras are in the past and we aren't talking about Dick and making ULF cameras.

You need to be careful about posting incorrect information and if you want to scrutinize any post I make, why don't you use your "usefullness" by going through every single post on this forum where you can "easily" scrutinize, correct, and make certain every member on this board has posted "accurate" information, with accordance to master Zenhutton's perfect knowledge database.

I have read a ton of posters, from moderators to people with only a few posts and I can easily take their words and flip them any which way I want and call them inaccurate. By all means, go through Ted or any Mod's posts and tell them to be careful about posting incorrect information...

[Don Hutton]

Well then, just don't post crap - that sound better to you?

[audioexcels]

RH Phillips is still very much in business, where did you get the idea they weren't? Dick is cutting way back on camera building to do more shooting and printing of hi own work but he hasn't stopped building cameras. He is concentrating on 8x10 and 4x5 right now, at least that is his current plan.

My interest in his work stemmed from the 8X10's he has produced, both very light, and very intuitively looking in design (very straightforward, in other words to make working with the camera much less complex than other more hyper looking designs). I actually only learned of his 4X5 from seeing one on Ebay. I gathered from the information around the forum that Phillips was not producing cameras at this time and is why the market is very crazed when it comes to one of his cameras coming around Ebay or even this board every now and then. I know that I for one am simply amazed by the person selling his 7X17? in the FS section. Cannot imagine ever selling something like that unless it simply wasn't being used. Even so, if the best images ever taken came from that camera, I would think the person would want to keep the puck/ball/etc. that players do from records they set

I never said anything about Dick making ULF cameras. I should be clearer when I type. As said in response to Don, I was referencing the type of craze that takes place when one of his 8X10's comes to the market which is no different than when a banquet based camera comes to the market. I was "specifically" referring to this current auction and how at present time or at least in the recent months/half year, there has been a huge flood towards the larger cameras offered on Ebay, whether for collectors or not.

I remember a while back when that gorgeous setup was being sold by I think Clay? and he could not sell it for the life of him. Now these things are selling like hotcakes anytime they come around as if they are a museum treasure.

Sorry I was not explanatory enough and ran words through too quickly to make it sound like I was making any sort of comparison of Dick's work to banquet cameras (aside from the rarity of both and how the market has really shown a lot of craze especially recently towards both of these types of products).

As said above, I only became interested in Phillips when I learned about the weight of his 8X10 cameras and it became one to have on my list of things to look out for.

I think I was also always of the impression that Phillips "was" a relatively productive camera maker due to the few reviews seen on his cameras and not others on the market, but that maybe he was in fact much more productive in the past and not so much so at present or forward thinking time? I do not know as I mentioned, I know very little about the history on him and only know of the 8X10 from reviews.

Sorry and thank you for elaborating on his status at present-future time with respect to bringing more or less cameras to the LF world.

[audioexcels]

Well then, just don't post crap - that sound better to you?

Sounds fair enough ignorantly blissful banquent unknowledgeable hypocrit...

[Don Hutton]

Sounds fair enough ignorantly blissful banquent unknowledgeable hypocrit...
Calling Dick Phillip's cameras "banquet cameras" as a collective description is simply an incredible display of ignorance and or stupidity. I've actually owned a couple of his cameras and know a little bit about them - I don't as a rule, make dumb ass postings about stuff I've never seen and no little about. Perhaps you should have a think about that...

[audioexcels]

Calling Dick Phillip's cameras "banquet cameras" as a collective description is simply an incredible display of ignorance and or stupidity. I've actually owned a couple of his cameras and know a little bit about them - I don't as a rule, make dumb ass postings about stuff I've never seen and no little about. Perhaps you should have a think about that...

Perhaps you should have a think about understanding what I am saying. You must be 60 going on a million. No age, nor banquet with a gathering of the oldest snobs of the world could possibly measure up to you.

[Don Hutton]

Perhaps you should have a think about understanding what I am saying. You must be 60 going on a million. No age, nor banquet with a gathering of the oldest snobs of the world could possibly measure up to you.You must have missed you meds again....

[audioexcels]

You must have missed you meds again....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mccormickstudio]

Wow, so much love on this thread. My apologies for starting the heresay. I did try to call Mr. Phillips a few times and the phone number would not go through ( I assumed it was disconnected, but maybe I have an old number?). My email attempts also bounced back. So I asked the only person I know who uses a Phillips and he told me that he thought Dick was retired. Again, my apologies for the mistake.

[Clement Apffel]

Audioexel and Don ...
you just drown a very interresting and balanced thread.

and as the moderators doesn't seems to care about keeping posts clean.
could you at least have the courtesy of deleting your angry flooding posts ?

In the name of all the mute and courteous readers of this forum, I thank you in advance.

regards,