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Mike Castles
23-Mar-2008, 08:39
Noticed the thread on 7x11 holders and rather than highjack that thread decided to start a new one.

Do not have any 'extra' 7x11 holders to spare, but this seems like a good time to mention that I sent Sandy King one of my 7x11 Eastman holders to measure and compare to a Korona 7x11 holder. It is my hope that the difference between the Eastman and Korona are minor and that we (myself and the owner of the Korona) can put together a small order of S&S 7x11 holders.

These things do come up once in a while, but not that often. A source for new ones would be welcomed (plus would be real nice to have for the 7x11/8x10 that Richard is building for me). A new Ritter 7x11 camera (yes sent him one of the other holders to used to make the 7x11 back) and new S&S 7x11 holders and I will be set.

If you are interested, let Sandy know - or post your interest here - or I will be happy to pass the information on to Sandy. For those wondering why 7x11, it is 11x14 cut in half, but the big attraction for me is the perspective..it just works for the way I see. Very close to 5x7 or 12x20 (7x11 really looks like a smaller 12x20) - see attached.

Richard K.
23-Mar-2008, 09:14
Close to the Golden Ratio !!! Oh, no...now you've got ME thinking, and, as my wife will attest, thinking for me winds up being expensive...but what the heck, a few holders, a reducing back for my 10x12 and I'll be...er...GOLDEN...(with apologies to Pythagoras, Euclid, et al)....

-Richard in Toronto yet to thaw :eek:

Colin Graham
23-Mar-2008, 09:33
That is a great looking format. Nice shot, too.

Sanjay Sen
23-Mar-2008, 10:01
The perspective / ratio indeed looks very nice! Also, for those who are hesitant about cutting film (like I am), Ilford's special production run has 7x11 in FP4+ and HP5+. Or at least the last run had this size, and we can hope they will continue.

Mike, that photo is very well done!


Best wishes,
Sanjay

Mike Castles
23-Mar-2008, 11:06
Thank you for the kind comments, Sanjay and Colin.

It is very close to the Golden Mean, and one of the really nice things about the format is the ability to go to vertical, by just changing the back. That and all of my 8x10 lens work perfect - right now that is 240,300 and 450.

All of my work is contact prints (plt/pld) and the format has a nice presence when mounted/matted and framed.

As Sanjay mentioned, Ilford does include 7x11 in Fp4+ and HP5+, I picked up a few boxes from the last run. In addition to that film, at one point I checked with Freestyle to see about an order of Efke PL100, and it is possible to have that film cut to 7x11 as well - the minimum order (20 boxes I think) was just out of my budget.

Richard K.
23-Mar-2008, 11:17
Geeze Mike, now you've done it. :) Golden ratio. :) Nice. I have an idea of how to adapt one (or more) of my 10x12 holders to accommodate 7x11 film (which apparently IS available). Any thoughts?

I envision a sheet of thin 10x12 plastic to be inserted into the holder with retaining strips to hold 7x11 film. I would use one thickness of film to form the abutment top and bottom and right. I would then use a second strip overlapping the top and bottom strips to act as a rail. The left side would be open, to be clamped down by the film holder flap. There would be 1/2" or so gap with the overlapping top and bottom strips at the beginning (left side) of rows C and D to facilitate film loading. So the ground glass would be marked (I couldn't get the vertical asterisks to line up correctly but just connect A to B and C to D with asterisks):

********************A
*****************C


*****************D
********************B

Suggestions appreciated!

Colin Graham
23-Mar-2008, 11:43
7x11 has been a huge temptation since I saw your posts over on APUG (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum187/38158-7x11-cameras.html) last year. Since then I've been going the trailerpark route- masking 4x5 to give the same ratio. One of these days though....

Edit-I added a link to the thread, hope you don't mind. It's a great thread about the format.

Mike Castles
23-Mar-2008, 11:48
Richard, just tell your wife it is my fault!

What you describe, I think might work. There was another thread recently about a modification for a Lotus 14x17 holder, that had what looked to me like an insert that fit into each side and one on each end to mask the film area (the modification was for 12x16 Ilfochrome paper IIRC). Have a friend with a 12x20, who has discussed using 11x14 in his 12x20 holders, using the same technique.

Of course there is always the option of 7x11 back and holders. I would suggest making a mask for the GG so you can see if it is a format you would like. If you are making a mask, maybe try something like 7.5x12 to get to a near Golden Mean.

eddie
26-Mar-2008, 18:16
oooohhh! i may need some holders. where can i get info on prices and availability? how about 7x11 film?

thanks. mine is a korona.

eddie

wfwhitaker
26-Mar-2008, 19:03
oooohhh! i may need some holders. where can i get info on prices and availability?

Quality Camera has some. Check with Jeff.

Mike Castles
26-Mar-2008, 19:09
eddie, send Sandy King a note (email/pm/etc). Last time we spoke, he was waiting for a 7x11 Korona holder from someone else, and was going to compare/measure both the Korona and Eastman holders. He should be able to give you prices on the holders.

Film, check with some of the folks that handled the last ULF film from Ilford - ViewCamera Store list 7x11 Ilford (FP4+ and HP5+), and Big Camera Workshops in Canada (this is where I got mine). If all else fails, some 11x14 cut one time will yield 2 sheets of 7x11 - I clip the edge off of one corner in place of a notch.

If I hear from Sandy, I will be sure to let you know. Welcome to the club...it's a great format for contact printing.

eddie
27-Mar-2008, 10:26
thanks mike! i ordered some 11x14 from freestyle. i will cut it down till i find some more!

i get the camera on sunday. i will be bringing it to the ESP shoot in philly on april 4th. should be awesome! it also comes with a WP and 5x7 reducing backs! oh baby! (i can not find any WP film either!!?!?!?)

eddie

wfwhitaker
27-Mar-2008, 11:09
This happens everytime the subject of 7x11 comes up. Somebody or some people get all jazzed about the format and just have to have holders. But when I mention where some holders are available, it's as if I were invisible. I don't get it. I really don't. But if I were planning a special order for 7x11 holders, I sure wouldn't commit to it until folks were ready to ante up and show me the money.

sanking
27-Mar-2008, 11:31
eddie, send Sandy King a note (email/pm/etc). Last time we spoke, he was waiting for a 7x11 Korona holder from someone else, and was going to compare/measure both the Korona and Eastman holders. He should be able to give you prices on the holders.



I still have not received the Korona model holder. I am hoping that the Eastman and Korona sizes will be the same. If someone has a Korona holder please contact me by pm about dimensions.

Sandy

eddie
27-Mar-2008, 12:02
i have two holders that come with the camera. i am getting it on sunday. i will check to see which brand they are and send any useful info to sandy. cheers.

eddie

John Schneider
27-Mar-2008, 12:20
Sandy,

I have some Eastman as well as an Ansco 7x17 holder if case you needed dimensions.

Mike Castles
27-Mar-2008, 16:25
I still have not received the Korona model holder. I am hoping that the Eastman and Korona sizes will be the same. If someone has a Korona holder please contact me by pm about dimensions.

Sandy

Thank you for the update Sandy, I was hoping that by starting a thread if someone with one of the Korona holders, they could fill in the information in case the other holder had not come in. I have no problem with you keeping my holder until someone can either send you a Korona holder or at least give you the information needed to compare the 2 styles. Like you, I am hoping they are the same, or at the least very close.

Will, wish I could give you an answer about the information you passed on about the holders that ARE available. I have noticed what you mentioned as well. There seems to be good converstation when the format is mentioned, but to be honest I do not think there are that many who use it. There are maybe 4-5 on this site that I am aware of, and rarely do I see a print that has been produced with the format. Guess the same might be true of 10x12 though. At least there has been enough interest that Ilford did include it with the special cut run last year and I hope that it will be in the next one as well.

Again, if anyone has a Korona holder in 7x11 Please contact Sandy if you do not mind.

Thanks everyone...

John Schneider
27-Mar-2008, 17:31
Sandy,

I have some Eastman as well as an Ansco 7x17 holder if case you needed dimensions.

Doh! that should have said 7x11 Ansco and EK holders.

sanking
28-Mar-2008, 10:54
Sandy,

I have some Eastman as well as an Ansco 7x17 holder if case you needed dimensions.

You mean 7X11 holders, right? If so, yes, please send me the dimensions, or just post them here.

Four things are important.

1. Width of the holder.
2. Distance from the end of the holder at the flap end to far side of the rib-lock.
3. Width and depth of the rib-lock.
4. T-dimension, measured from the septum to the outside of the frame.

Thanks,

Sandy

audioexcels
28-Mar-2008, 17:38
Noticed the thread on 7x11 holders and rather than highjack that thread decided to start a new one.

Do not have any 'extra' 7x11 holders to spare, but this seems like a good time to mention that I sent Sandy King one of my 7x11 Eastman holders to measure and compare to a Korona 7x11 holder. It is my hope that the difference between the Eastman and Korona are minor and that we (myself and the owner of the Korona) can put together a small order of S&S 7x11 holders.

These things do come up once in a while, but not that often. A source for new ones would be welcomed (plus would be real nice to have for the 7x11/8x10 that Richard is building for me). A new Ritter 7x11 camera (yes sent him one of the other holders to used to make the 7x11 back) and new S&S 7x11 holders and I will be set.

If you are interested, let Sandy know - or post your interest here - or I will be happy to pass the information on to Sandy. For those wondering why 7x11, it is 11x14 cut in half, but the big attraction for me is the perspective..it just works for the way I see. Very close to 5x7 or 12x20 (7x11 really looks like a smaller 12x20) - see attached.


7X11 is beautiful, but more like 12X20...not close in any way to 5X7 IMHO. 8X10 looks like a big square that needs a ton of cutting. I would never shoot 8X10 unless it was a portrait shot in the world of Rollei/Hassleblad. Did you basically have RR do a 7X11 camera and 8X10 reduction back?

I am interested in 7X11 holders dependent on weight/price/etc.

audioexcels
28-Mar-2008, 17:44
Doh! that should have said 7x11 Ansco and EK holders.

John,

Send em' off as Sandy isn't getting them from people. They are light enough to put into a flat rate box (longer style). I got four 8X10 modern holders into one of these flat rate boxes, so I'm sure you can get two, one of each 7X11 holder into the box.

If you have leftovers, feel free to send them my way;):). I have plenty of 8X10 holders to trade for some 7X11 holders:):)

Have a nice Friday evening John!

Mike Castles
28-Mar-2008, 18:48
7X11 is beautiful, but more like 12X20...not close in any way to 5X7 IMHO. 8X10 looks like a big square that needs a ton of cutting. I would never shoot 8X10 unless it was a portrait shot in the world of Rollei/Hassleblad. Did you basically have RR do a 7X11 camera and 8X10 reduction back?

I am interested in 7X11 holders dependent on weight/price/etc.

Good evening Audio,
The 7x11 Ritter is in the queue with the other 8x10's. As I trust Richard completely, am not sure if it is an 8x10 with a 7x11 back or 7x11 with a 8x10 back. Sorry, for being vague, just do not know (like I said, I trust Richard completely).

Yes, the 7x11 (1.5714) is much closer to the ratio of a 12x20 (1.6667) where the 5x7 is 1.4.

If you are interested in 7x11 holders, the ones that Will indicated at Quality Cameras are S&S holders (I would suggest contacting Will or Quality Cameras) and while used, they do look nice - QC has them listed on e**y, for less than new S&S holders. AWB also list 7x11 holders, but I have not investigated these. Sandy was kind enough to accept the loan of one of my 7x11 Eastman holders and take the measurements, with both of us hoping that he could compare it to one of the 7x11 holders.

Johns offer to measure his Eastman and Ansco holders is also, most kind.

audioexcels
28-Mar-2008, 22:24
Good evening Audio,
The 7x11 Ritter is in the queue with the other 8x10's. As I trust Richard completely, am not sure if it is an 8x10 with a 7x11 back or 7x11 with a 8x10 back. Sorry, for being vague, just do not know (like I said, I trust Richard completely).

Yes, the 7x11 (1.5714) is much closer to the ratio of a 12x20 (1.6667) where the 5x7 is 1.4.

If you are interested in 7x11 holders, the ones that Will indicated at Quality Cameras are S&S holders (I would suggest contacting Will or Quality Cameras) and while used, they do look nice - QC has them listed on e**y, for less than new S&S holders. AWB also list 7x11 holders, but I have not investigated these. Sandy was kind enough to accept the loan of one of my 7x11 Eastman holders and take the measurements, with both of us hoping that he could compare it to one of the 7x11 holders.

Johns offer to measure his Eastman and Ansco holders is also, most kind.

Ahhhh...okies!

Thanks Mike!

I'm thinking that Ritter must have done a 7X11 as the primary back because you have to fill the 11" side before you have to fill the 8" side if that makes sense;). In other words, you have to take the longest part of a camera's back and make that based on the shortest part of the back. Since this is also going to be an 8X10, you can assume a universal 11.5X11.5 or 12X12 back with an 8X10 camera. With a 7X11 camera, especially if you plan to rotate it into portrait mode=a must do, you must make the rear about 13.5X13.5 (for the 11 side). My numbers may be off, but it gives an idea of why the 8X10 would be the reduction back. Now what one "could" do is an "extension" back from an 8X10's standard, but this would be rather crude especially if you will shoot with both backs. In other words, you want a flat back and not some sticking out back.

Looking at every size possible for a contact print, 7X11/12X20, and then the panoramics are the "only" ones that appeal to me (I think I mentioned it already:)). At the same time, what is nice about 7X11 is you can chop 8X10 film to 7X10. This would give you, with the film holder clips chopping off 3/8th's of the 7, a 6 5/8" by 10" print. This would be a ratio number=1.51 or so=not bad at all. 5X7=1.41. So you could be shooting 7X11=1.6. So with that 7X11 back, and chopping up some 8X10 film, you can achieve a very neat ratio of 7X10 (get the full 10" with the 7" cut from film holder grips which is, again, a very neat aspect ratio). This would give you color emulsions of 7X10 inside the 7X11 holder (very nice:))...can't do that with an 8X10 holder since 10 is actually 9 5/8"'s. But you could do a 6X10 sheet of film in the 8X10 to arrive at a similar ratio, though you just lost a good bit of contact area!

All matters of compromise and things you can do, but 7X11 is, for me, the best "larger) contact size until you start to get into the larger sizes. a 7X10 would likely be my second favorite size. This is why with 8X10, that 10 side really kills the deal unless it was a true 10"'s of film and not cutoff.

In smaller sizes, there's all sorts of neat and very precious contact sizes that can be developed, especially from a WP film holder, or if one is wealthy enough, having custom holders built for the smaller sizes. Reduces weight and still gives a neat contact print....but...nothing like what you can do with a 7X11 contact if you want to wall hang a nice gorgeous ratio and make it be big enough that you don't feel any need to enlarge it. Smaller sizes like say, 5X8, I would love as a contact, but would need to enlarge it "at least" once to give it greater significance on the wall.

Sounds like you have a wonderful camera in the works. Richard seems like a fantastic person. I will always love his saying-I make the cameras, you get me the holders:)

Mike Castles
28-Apr-2008, 18:15
*****An Update on the S&S Holders ****
got an update from Sandy recently, and he is still waiting (and hoping) for a Korona holder to compare to the Eastman holder I sent him. He mentioned that there has been enough interest to build a batch of 7x11 holders - Thanks Sandy!!

If anyone is interested, the holders will not be batched until later this year, but I wanted to let those interested know that there is enough interest at this time. Please let Sandy know if you are interested - oh, and the only interest I have in this is to get the chance to purchase some well made holders for my 7x11.

Like I stated in another thread, ELF is just that EXOTIC, we take what we can - and improvise when we need to. :)

audioexcels
28-Apr-2008, 18:36
*****An Update on the S&S Holders ****
got an update from Sandy recently, and he is still waiting (and hoping) for a Korona holder to compare to the Eastman holder I sent him. He mentioned that there has been enough interest to build a batch of 7x11 holders - Thanks Sandy!!

If anyone is interested, the holders will not be batched until later this year, but I wanted to let those interested know that there is enough interest at this time. Please let Sandy know if you are interested - oh, and the only interest I have in this is to get the chance to purchase some well made holders for my 7x11.

Like I stated in another thread, ELF is just that EXOTIC, we take what we can - and improvise when we need to. :)

You can say that again about them being well made;). Should be the double light trap version I would think and price is right IMHO. One thing I wonder is if they can keep the weight around the 1lb mark as I believe the Eastman is something like 14 Ounces if I remember correctly from the APUG thread.