Loading film; how dark is dark enough?

[Tim k]

Another in my series of stupid noob questions, I'm just about ready to (brace yourself) take a picture. But first I've got to load some film holders. I know its supposed to be dark, but...

If say, after I've been in a dark place for a few minutes, initially its pretty darned dark, but after a couple of minutes I can start to make out some light around the door jamb. Is that something to be worried about?

Any rules of thumb in this regard? Is any light too much?

thanks again guys

Tim K

[Ron Marshall]

Another in my series of stupid noob questions, I'm just about ready to (brace yourself) take a picture. But first I've got to load some film holders. I know its supposed to be dark, but...

If say, after I've been in a dark place for a few minutes, initially its pretty darned dark, but after a couple of minutes I can start to make out some light around the door jamb. Is that something to be worried about?

Any rules of thumb in this regard? Is any light too much?

thanks again guys

Tim K

I've loaded in closets with no ill effects. Just stuff a towel in the cracks or use some black masking tape.

[MIke Sherck]

It needs to be really, really dark. One rule of thumb is, if you can see your hand held in front of your face after ten minutes in the "dark", then it isn't dark enough.

Mike

[David Karp]

Be in a place so dark, that when you have been in the room struggling with your holders for a while, you wish you could see something, anything at all, but you can't. :)

[Scott Kathe]

Tim,

Wait till night to load the filmholders and make sure all the lights are out in the house. If you want to check maybe you should set a sheet of film on the counter top emulsion side up and put a coin on it for five minutes or so and then develop and see what you get. Or maybe you should do it longer if you plan on developing in there as well, figure your developing time, stop bath time and maybe a minute or so for fixing just to estimate the time that your film would be exposed to whatever light is present.

I put a sheet of black foamcore board recessed in our bathroom window, cut to fit snug, and hold it in place with a couple of the small round (cross section) compression curtain rods. I have a dark blue heavyweight curtain over the door into the bathroom and a towel along the bottom of the door. I only use it at night for loading film holders and developing film and it seems to work very well.

Scott

[steve simmons]

I agree that either there is light or there isn't. Isn't is better. However, I once changed film on the tailgate of a pickup under the stars on a moonless night and did not see any fogging.

But, again, isn't is better.

My point is, if you see light in the loading room after about 10 minutes you may still be ok as long as the source is behind you, underneath the loading surface or table, etc.

steve simmons

[cotdt]

one trick i use is to load the film under my shirt, to block the remaining light.

[Walter Calahan]

Find a deep, deep cave if your room isn't absolutely dark. Or get a changing tent.

[David A. Goldfarb]

If all else fails, close your eyes while loading.

[Clay Turtle]

Buy a dark bag they aren't that expensive & you can always fold it & carry it with you while shooting . . . never know when you will end up with a slide not sliding back into the holder or (the need to reload holders). PS Close your eyes, can get to be a real bad habit . . . good to know that the door is ajar or the towel on the floor pulled away from the door when you turned to yell back to someone who is calling (looking) to you.
Silver lining about a truly dark room is that it teaches you to use your other senses!

[lenser]

I agree with the towel under the door, and the black tape, and working under a dark cloth.....all are good stop-gap measures, but the goal is blacker than the blackest, darkest ebony you can imagine.....an absolute lack of light!!!!

Even if you are working in a darkroom (as in printing room), be absolutely sure to check the door for light leaks and cover all timers (especially the luminous Graylabs and Time-o-lights with very dark towels or your dark cloth. Of course, turn off the safe lights.

Light is very much your enemy except when your trip the shutter.

Tim

[lenser]

Oh, yeah! Take off your luminous watch and leave your cel phone in the other room.

[Nick_3536]

But your back to the door. Keep yourself between the door and the film. The light won't go around corners and it sure won't pop out of your chest.

[Martin K]

One issue when doing a fog test should be kept in mind. Once film or paper has received an exposure it becomes more sensitive. The effects of light fog on exposed material is thus higher than on non exposed material. Also light fog might manifest as inexplicable subsequent over exposure and not necessarily as the dark base and so on that we would normally look for. What I am saying is that if you do not pick up fog with a simple visual check it does not mean that you have escaped its effects.

Martin

[domenico Foschi]

If all else fails, close your eyes while loading.

Don't we all do it?

[rwyoung]

If all else fails, close your eyes while loading.

Have you caught yourself with your eyes closed and tilting your head way back or to the side ala Ray Charles?

[MIke Sherck]

"On the other hand..." I don't like talking about exceptions in situations like this: its just an invitation to nit-picking. However, Steve has a point. Light moves in relatively straight lines (I know, I know: I'm ignoring lots of things, including diffraction.) If you have a tiny light leak on the floor and you're loading film holders on top of a table, the light isn't going anywhere near the film and you'll probably be all right. Or you might not: there are lots of "if's" and "buts".

I have, as an example, loaded half a box of ISO 200 8x10 film into holders before noticing that the foam seal around my darkroom door had developed a pinhole leak at a bottom corner, and a very weak gleam of light shown on the leg of the darkroom table I was working on. The film was fine, no increase in base fog and I was specifically looking for it. So, sometimes we can get away with being less than perfect. :)

Mike

[Jim Noel]

"How Dark?" is like "How Pregnant?" There is no degree of either. it ieither is or isn't.

[CG]

"How Dark?" is like "How Pregnant?" There is no degree of either. it ieither is or isn't.

That doesn't entirely agree with my experience.

I've worked in spaces where after a while I could see the outline of the door with no ill effects. It was indeed quite a while. My eyes were fully accomodated to the darkness, but I was surprised how much light could be present before it caused problems.

That said, as a new darkroom worker, starting out, I'd be very very conservative and be darn sure I could see absolutely nothing for a long time, as a starting point for handling film.

You'll do no harm by being too careful. Work at night and wait till your eyes are fully accomodated to be sure you have it set up safely.

C

[Geert]

I once unloaded my holders and forgot to close the darkroom door. Lucky for me, it was late at night. No fogging.

G

[Tim k]

Fantastic response guys. Thank you. Don't you all have anything else to do?
I would have never thought of closing my eyes, on my own.
Seriously, you all have been a great help to me, directly and indirectly.
Tim K

[SAShruby]

Just load those males into females and you'll see what you end up with. :D

[Claude Sapp]

I am not going to say it does not matter, but I will say that in my experience a bit of light under a door has not made any difference. By little light, I mean little, not anything that you would see without totally dark adjusted eyes.

I just think about how LOOONG of an exposure I need to give with even EV2 or 3 metering, and the light I think we are talking about would never even register on anyones meter, I imagine. I just do not fret over so little light and any (if any) effect from the 5 seconds it takes to get film from the black film bag into the holder.

Ideally, yes, totally dark so you can't see your hand. Practically speaking I have never seen any ill effect from light you can only sense with dark adjusted eyes.

[tim810]

I work in a really nice dark room at a local community college. The room is pitch black (tested with a roll of ilford 3200 that was exposed for 2 hours in the room than developed, it was clean). I did this test to ensure my 8x10 and 12x20 film would not get damaged (as a student I have little money to waste). At about .04 per square inch can't afford to loose any. The dark room has two doors that both lock and I have one of two keys.
This seems like a perfect scenario, but... The other day I had just finished developing 4 12x20 sheets of film and 16 sheets of 8x10 film, all in the fixer. I had switched to re-loading my holders. I finished my 8x10 holders than moved on to my 12x20. As I opened my box of Berger BPF 200 with 20 sheets still in it the custodian opened the first door (even with a huge note on the door saying "Do not come in, Light sensitive materials in use"). Well This is why I have two locks. I hollered and said to not come in. She said that I did not have the "light" in the hall on to notify my being in the dark room. I told her that If the light is on than the dark light is on and what I am doing "can not" include "any" light. The custodian doesn't seem to listen to me and "informs me" of the switch on the wall in-between the two doors that turns this light on; as she does this she flips the switch and all the auburn lights turn on, a total of 9 lights in a 12x12 room. Most of my film was ruined!!! How do you take the human element out of the situation.
Due to this I think a Harrison Tent is necessary.

Please excuse my rant. I just needed to vent this obsurd situation.

Cheers

[Robbie Shymanski]

Just blow the, what $20-25?, on a changing bag. That said, I made the noob mistake and forgot to zip both layers shut. The bag was partially folded at the time. I was loading 6 5x7 carriers at the time with Tri-X. It was fine. Not ever a trace of fog.

[Pat Kearns]

The custodian doesn't seem to listen to me and "informs me" of the switch on the wall in-between the two doors that turns this light on; as she does this she flips the switch and all the auburn lights turn on, a total of 9 lights in a 12x12 room. Most of my film was ruined!!! How do you take the human element out of the situation.
Due to this I think a Harrison Tent is necessary.

Please excuse my rant. I just needed to vent this obsurd situation.

Cheers

Next time some duct tape or gaffers tape on the light switch might slow her down enough so you can get the box close.

[Christopher Breitenstein]

I work in a really nice dark room at a local community college. The room is pitch black (tested with a roll of ilford 3200 that was exposed for 2 hours in the room than developed, it was clean). I did this test to ensure my 8x10 and 12x20 film would not get damaged (as a student I have little money to waste). At about .04 per square inch can't afford to loose any. The dark room has two doors that both lock and I have one of two keys.
This seems like a perfect scenario, but... The other day I had just finished developing 4 12x20 sheets of film and 16 sheets of 8x10 film, all in the fixer. I had switched to re-loading my holders. I finished my 8x10 holders than moved on to my 12x20. As I opened my box of Berger BPF 200 with 20 sheets still in it the custodian opened the first door (even with a huge note on the door saying "Do not come in, Light sensitive materials in use"). Well This is why I have two locks. I hollered and said to not come in. She said that I did not have the "light" in the hall on to notify my being in the dark room. I told her that If the light is on than the dark light is on and what I am doing "can not" include "any" light. The custodian doesn't seem to listen to me and "informs me" of the switch on the wall in-between the two doors that turns this light on; as she does this she flips the switch and all the auburn lights turn on, a total of 9 lights in a 12x12 room. Most of my film was ruined!!! How do you take the human element out of the situation.
Due to this I think a Harrison Tent is necessary.

Please excuse my rant. I just needed to vent this obsurd situation.

Cheers

Talk to the darkroom tech, and the department head. The school should replace you film!

This kind of thing happend once six years ago at the institution I attended, The University of Arizona, and the janitors were promptly banned from the darkroom.

[buze]

I think that closing your eyes prevents your eyes to get accustomed to the dark and 'see' light leaks. Also I find that having my eyes open helps with my 'localization' sense; I can reach stuff without fumbling etc.

Try it !

You might also see some of these ellusive 'chemical flash'. I had that a handful of times when opening a film envelope : you pull it open and suddenly see a rather brigtht flash, it's one of physics 'explained but not very convincingly' problems... it's called 'triboluminescence'.

[Nick Kanellos]

You might also see some of these ellusive 'chemical flash'. I had that a handful of times when opening a film envelope : you pull it open and suddenly see a rather brigtht flash, it's one of physics 'explained but not very convincingly' problems... it's called 'triboluminescence'.

I get that sometimes when I'm peeling the tape off roll film. You know that bit of masking-like tape that holds the film to the reel. Worst possible situation where there isn't much you can do, since the roll itself IS the light source. Peeling more slowly helps. Nevertheless, the developed film doesn't seem to show any ill-effects. Now I have a name for it: 'triboluminescence', eh? I used to call it that-blue-light-I-get-when-I'm-peeling-the-tape-off-the-film-roll. Hmmm... come to think of it, it's still easier to pronounce than 'triboluminescence'. Maybe I'll stick with my original name. :)

[rachase]

I may find out the answer to this question soon. Last night I unloaded exposed color sheets (Fuji 160S) into a film box in my changing bag. The problem was that I had zipped the first zipper and thought that I had zipped the second, but really unzipped the first instead. I did this with the lights off in a room, but there was definitely some light emanating from clock radios, windows, etc. Hopefully not much light entered the bag, but I guess I will find out.

[John Kasaian]

The darker the better. I load and soup film at night, but after a few minutes in my darkroom/bathroom I can detect some dim "gray" light from around the door jam in spite of the towel, or where the cardboard over the window has made a small gap---but nothing direct. With my back to the leaks, shielding the film, it dosn't seem to make any difference

[John Bowen]

You can never be too rich, too thin or have a darkroom that is too dark :-)

[Jiri Vasina]

John, only 2 out of 3 (you CAN be too thin). :)

I also have some light leaks around the darkroom door, but have not had any fogging so far. I always place myself between the film and the door, and try to always orient the film edgewise to the possible light source (not flat).

Jiri

[W K Longcor]

Just because it is night -- don't forget to cover ALL possible openings. There is the old story of the guy who waited until late at night - went into the bathroom and closed the door. Right after all his film was out, his son arrived home. High beams coming right through the window!!! :(

[Ole Tjugen]

"How Dark?" is like "How Pregnant?" There is no degree of either. it ieither is or isn't.

I've loaded film in holders outdoors at night, by starlight. No fogging at all.

Just imagine how long an exposure you would need to make a picture exposing by starlight!

[cyrus]

If you turn your back to the light leaking from the door, you're usually fine. Then again, sometimes there are "happy accidents" in life ...