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audioexcels
5-Mar-2008, 17:19
I recently sent off a brand new Schneider 110XL lens from OR to Europe. It was in spotless condition when it left and it has arrived with some sort of water inside the internal part of the lens cells.

Has anyone experienced this issue before due to weather differences and somehow moisture getting into the lens??? I have seen moisture on the front of the elements before, but have never heard of it getting inside the elements.

Aside from this, what is the best thing to do at this point to help alleviate this issue or to get the lens looking new as it left here?

Thanks everyone!

buze
5-Mar-2008, 18:28
Pack it in a sealed ziplock with a handful of Silica Gel bags. And be patient. Not much else to do really...

Songyun
5-Mar-2008, 18:28
Isn't that the famous fog problem?

buze
5-Mar-2008, 18:32
Now that you mention it Songyun, and looking at the picture closer; it looks like fog/and/or separation. I have seen a 300mm f5.6 Symmar S with the same (?) problem, and it wasn't humidity.
It was /between/ scemented element in the front group, and it looks very similar to this lens... I have no idea what caused it...

audioexcels
5-Mar-2008, 18:48
Isn't that the famous fog problem?

How does fog enter a lens? When it was shipped the glass was brand new looking. Whenever I have a lens for sale, I overexaggerate things because I am so anal about every single aspect of the lens. Most will just sell and say "excellent condition" and that's it. I will always tell the person precisely what I see and something this "blatant" is something a nearly blind person could see. It's frustrating for the person that purchased it, and equally frustrating for me because this has never happened before.

Ted Harris
5-Mar-2008, 18:49
Was it brand new as in you got it from an authorized dealer or did it just seem to be brand new?

audioexcels
5-Mar-2008, 18:52
Now that you mention it Songyun, and looking at the picture closer; it looks like fog/and/or separation. I have seen a 300mm f5.6 Symmar S with the same (?) problem, and it wasn't humidity.
It was /between/ scemented element in the front group, and it looks very similar to this lens... I have no idea what caused it...

Was your lens described as having flawless/brand new glass and when it was received it had this effect or did this develop over time? It's very much so stressing the life out of me. From the States here, it has been very very cold, and likely travelled through extremely cold environments. As an example, I receive lenses that have moisture on them (this one was dry when it was received) due to the change of temperature during transit. But this has come right off and no fogging or effects have ever come out of it. I have actually never seen fogging in any lens that I have had in my hands and I have had about 50 or so LF lenses.

Don Hutton
5-Mar-2008, 18:53
Yes - as far as I know, these lenses are designed to "breathe". I left a CF on mine a couple of years ago and condensation formed on the inside of the front element. I tried taking off the CF and leaving the lens in a warmish spot in my house but no joy. Finally I had to send the lens in to Schneider to have it taken apart and cleaned and they told me leaving a filter on a lens or using incorrect or "generic" caps was a bad idea for this very reason. Anyway, if you bought it new and can prove that, you should be able to have it sorted under warranty.

audioexcels
5-Mar-2008, 18:56
Was it brand new as in you got it from an authorized dealer or did it just seem to be brand new?

I am the second owner and the first is Mbmarks who described it as having been mounted once onto a Tech board and then taken off the board. It was purchased from a US dealer in I believe the midwest? It is not a newer stock 110XL as if you purchased one just made this month.

Don Hutton
5-Mar-2008, 19:01
I know that Schneider's lifetime warranty is not transferable beyond the original owner, but having them service and clean my lens for the same issue was not prohibitively expensive.

Capocheny
5-Mar-2008, 22:33
Yes - as far as I know, these lenses are designed to "breathe". I left a CF on mine a couple of years ago and condensation formed on the inside of the front element. I tried taking off the CF and leaving the lens in a warmish spot in my house but no joy. Finally I had to send the lens in to Schneider to have it taken apart and cleaned and they told me leaving a filter on a lens or using incorrect or "generic" caps was a bad idea for this very reason.

Hi Don,

Thank you for that piece of information!

Think I'll go and check out my 110. :)

Cheers

Songyun
5-Mar-2008, 22:45
they told me leaving a filter on a lens or using incorrect or "generic" caps was a bad idea for this very reason.
Don, I think the reason is lame, Schneider didn't get the fact straight. For anyone who is interested, do a search with super symmar xl 80mm and fog. There are a lot of discussion about that.

audioexcels
5-Mar-2008, 23:25
Don, I think the reason is lame, Schneider didn't get the fact straight. For anyone who is interested, do a search with super symmar xl 80mm and fog. There are a lot of discussion about that.

Does this fogging affect the picture quality when comparing it to a similar lens without the fogging?

Capocheny
6-Mar-2008, 00:55
Don, I think the reason is lame, Schneider didn't get the fact straight. For anyone who is interested, do a search with super symmar xl 80mm and fog. There are a lot of discussion about that.

Songyun,

When googled... most of this issue related to the 80xl.

Is it also applicable to the 72 AND 110 XLs?

Thanks for any information you may care to share with us. :)

Cheers

Maretzo
6-Mar-2008, 01:54
Similar experience happens to me, with a Symmar convertible 240-420 bought in this forum. But I do not know if it was foggy before or if that happened during shipping. Something to do with the low pressure baggage hold of the plane maybe!??

Don Hutton
6-Mar-2008, 05:34
Don, I think the reason is lame, Schneider didn't get the fact straight. For anyone who is interested, do a search with super symmar xl 80mm and fog. There are a lot of discussion about that.Songyun

The "fogging" in 80mmXLs was a different issue realated only to an early batch of 80mm XLs and a change in materials in manufacture. Take your 110mmXL and stick a filter on tightly for a couple of months and see what happens. Might cure your "lameness"....

audioexcels
6-Mar-2008, 06:11
Songyun

The "fogging" in 80mmXLs was a different issue realated only to an early batch of 80mm XLs and a change in materials in manufacture. Take your 110mmXL and stick a filter on tightly for a couple of months and see what happens. Might cure your "lameness"....

What is the image quality with the fog based lens vs. the free of fog lens?

Don Hutton
6-Mar-2008, 06:17
I didn't bother shooting mine. Haze generally causes a sharp drop in contrast. I'm pretty certain that the "misting" on the inside of mine would have resulted in very flat soft images.

Songyun
6-Mar-2008, 06:17
Songyun

The "fogging" in 80mmXLs was a different issue realated only to an early batch of 80mm XLs and a change in materials in manufacture.
Don, how early do you think is early?
I searched the forum, it seems that everyone is giving the same "early batch" answer. But my experience is different from that. I once bought a very LATE batch 80mm xl, it has fog. Luckily the seller is the original buyer, and he took it back and send it to Schneider. The first response from schneider is that it only happened to "early batch", and it should be the user's fault, we are going to charge you $$ for repair, but in the end the lens was sent back to Germany, and the repair is free. If you ask a Schneider guy, how early is early? They will never give you the date or serial number. Early can be as early as the first batch, also could be as early as last year.

Yes, I screwed a UV filter tightly on my 110 front, and use generic lens cap. So far no fogging. Actually Mike's 110 is the first one that I have known with the fogging issue.

Bob Salomon
6-Mar-2008, 07:58
How does fog enter a lens? When it was shipped the glass was brand new looking. Whenever I have a lens for sale, I overexaggerate things because I am so anal about every single aspect of the lens. Most will just sell and say "excellent condition" and that's it. I will always tell the person precisely what I see and something this "blatant" is something a nearly blind person could see. It's frustrating for the person that purchased it, and equally frustrating for me because this has never happened before.

This would not be because lenses should not be sent by air. We are the Rodenstock and Linhof distributors and were the Rollei and Minox distributor. All of our shipments from the factories were/are shipped by air and regardless of who made the lens this was never an issue. Each item from the factory, lens or camera, was packed with fresh silica gel packets in each individual product box that had a lens in it.

How does moisture get in? Usually from a small, pinpoint opening in the sealing layer around the elements. Then in a moist environment, such as condensation. The pinpoint hole is frequently caused by rough handling. That does not mean dropping. It can occur from just being set down on a table too hard.

It could also be caused by someone dropping a package containg the lens during shipment if the lens was not adequately packaged for routine handling during shipment. To see how a lens is packed by the manufacturer you should carefully inspect a new lens in its original box and factory packaging and try to see how the manufacturer or distributor packages that box for shipping to a dealer.

rob
6-Mar-2008, 08:46
I had similar condensation experience with a g-claron. I put the fogged cell in foodsaver vacuum bag (vacuumed and sealed) and heated it slightly and gently with hair dryer, it worked like charm, the fog disappeared completely. :D

IanG
6-Mar-2008, 10:05
Like Rob I've seen condensation in a lens, in fact many times, it can occur when a lens has been stored in a cool damp/humid environment and is suddenly warmed up.

Usually putting in a warm dry place to slowly dry out works fine but sometimes the condensation leaves drying marks between the elements.

My problems have all been with Schneider & Vivitar (Schneider) enlarger lenses no other manufacturer, and luckily all are now fine, even the lens with drying marks is now
cleaned.

Ian

mrladewig
6-Mar-2008, 10:54
Like Rob I've seen condensation in a lens, in fact many times, it can occur when a lens has been stored in a cool damp/humid environment and is suddenly warmed up.

Technically it is when the lens is taken from a cooler place (does not need to be humid) into a warm and relatively humid place. Two examples:
Lens is kept in an air conditioned hotel room in the tropics then taken outside into the warm, humid atmosphere.
Lens is kept in a backpack all day while skiing, then taken inside the warm ski lodge (or a tent for that matter).

Both of these scenarios will result in condensation forming on the lens.
Generally you will not have trouble going from a warm space into the cold.

For future reference, it is suggested that if you go from the cold into the a warm humid area, that you put your gear into ziploc bags in the cold and let them warm up slowly.

In this case I might try warming the lens up in a sealed environment with some silica packets too. Otherwise it needs to go to someone for cleaning. Moisture inside the lens is how fungus gets inside a lens and you don't want that.

Songyun
7-Mar-2008, 16:44
So the conclusion is that the fog issue is caused by condensation, including the problem with 80 ssxl. And the question is that why do we see so many samples in Schneider lens, especially the super symmar XL series.